From the International Herald Tribune (http://www.iht.com): More expats say taxes make it too costly
By Doreen Carvajal
Published: 2006-12-17

PARIS: She is a former U.S. Marine, a native Californian and, now, a former American who prefers to remain discreet about abandoning her citizenship. After 10 years of warily considering options, she turned in her U.S. passport last month without ceremony, becoming an alien in the view of her homeland.

"It's a really hard thing to do," said the woman, a 16-year resident of Geneva who had tired of the cost and time of filing yearly U.S. tax returns on top of her Swiss taxes. "I just kept putting this off. But it's my kids and the estate tax. I don't care if I die with only one Swiss franc to my name, but the U.S. shouldn't get money I earned here when I die."

Historically, small numbers of Americans have turned in their passports every year for political and economic reasons, with the numbers reaching a high of about 2,000 during a Vietnam War-era boom in the 1970s.

But with new tax pressures facing American expatriates due to legislation enacted in Washington this year, some international tax lawyers say they detect rising demand from citizens to renounce ties with the United States — the only developed country that taxes it citizens while they are overseas. Americans abroad are also taxed in foreign countries where they reside.

"The administrative costs of being an American and living outside the U.S. have gone up dramatically," said Marnin Michaels, a tax lawyer with Baker & McKenzie in Zurich.

To date this year, the Internal Revenue Service has tallied 509 Americans who have given up their citizenship, said Anthony Burke, an IRS spokesman in Washington, although he added that the full figures were still being counted for "renunciants."

Applications are on the rise at the U.S. Embassy in Paris, according to an official who did not want to be named. In London, a U.S. Embassy spokeswoman, Karen Maxfield, said that the number of renunciations had remained stable for the last two years. Neither embassy disclosed the actual count of applications.

A Geneva-based tax lawyer, however, said that clients of his seeking to turn in their passports were facing far longer waits for appointments at the London embassy than in previous years.

Typically, Maxfield said, expats take the step "because they do not have strong ties to the United States and do not believe that they will ever live there in the future. All have two citizenships and generally say they would like to simplify their lives by giving up a citizenship they are not using."

Andy Sundberg, a director of Geneva-based American Citizens Abroad, has been tracking renunciations dating back to the 1960s through U.S. Treasury Department figures published yearly. He considers the numbers relatively low at this point, but he has also noticed a surge in interest among Americans in taking the ultimate step.

"I think the cup is boiling over for a number of people living abroad," Sundberg said. "With the Internet and the speed and the ubiquity of information, people are more aware of what's happening." With the changes in the tax laws, he said, some expatriates fear "they're heading toward a real storm."

He cites, for example, a survey released last month by the American Chamber of Commerce in Singapore, which polled its members in October and November and found that many were considering returning to the United States because of higher taxes.

Concern about taxes among expatriates has surged since President George W. Bush signed into law a bill that sharply increases tax rates for Americans abroad with income of more than $82,400 a year. The legislation also increases taxes on employer-provided benefits like housing allowances.

The changes, enacted in May and tweaked by the Treasury Department under guidelines issued in October, apply retroactively to last Jan. 1.

Matthew Ledvina, an international tax lawyer in Geneva, said demand for legal counsel on the citizenship issue was coming largely from American citizens who hold second passports and who have minimal ties to the United States.

He said some expatriates were weighing the value of their American passports and debating whether it was worth keeping them if the cost topped $50,000 a year.

"There are incentives to do it before the end of the year so that you can minimize your future reporting," he said.

Ledvina said the waiting period for appointments at the U.S. Embassy in London had increased from a few days to more than three and a half months, with more than two applications processed each day.

He said he had approached embassies in Vienna, Bern, London, Paris and Brussels before finally getting an appointment in Amsterdam for a client's renunciation.

Read more (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/17/news/expat.php).....

Another one of those costs for folks from USA who work and earn big bucks in foreign lands (versus retirees who have US-based pensions and need to live in a low-cost area just to survive.)

I cannot comprehend tossing aside my citizenship for any reason:nope:

I cannot comprehend tossing aside my citizenship for any reason:nope:

I am in total agreement with you on this one.

I cannot comprehend tossing aside my citizenship for any reason:nope:

I agree 100%!

I cannot comprehend tossing aside my citizenship for any reason:nope:

I couldn't have said it better!!

Can you blame her, the democrates are coming...........

Can you blame her, the democrates are coming...........Comments like that can derail this thread very, very fast. This forum is supposed to avoid political discussions. Be aware.

I cannot comprehend tossing aside my citizenship for any reason:nope:

I guess if one is extremely wealthy, then it may make no difference.
I'll never have to worry about it. Just as well because I am always going to be here and a proud citizen of the good ole U.S.A.

Can you blame her, the democrates are coming...........

Let us stay on the course of the thread.


Comments like that can derail this thread very, very fast. This forum is supposed to avoid political discussions. Be aware.

I agree Sidney.

Whoa whoa whoa, the headline of the story is polically bias. 509 this year have left the United States, yet some editor and reporter feel the need to make a story about it?????? 300 Million live here, with 10+ million here illegal, yet 509 leaving gets a story. The story is slanted to make it seem people would rather leave America to pay taxes in other countrys, yet no example is cited to support that conculsion. Marc should have relized before posting this tripe that intelligent people would take offense at it.

Where is this story on the cove:
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/12/15/061215180641.fuw3ri1r.html

per capita france has many more leaving for taxes, also note france taxes the people at 60%. Why is it not posted?

So a visitor gets held to a diffrent level as to what can be said? The article is a attack on America, although a mild one still a blantant attack.

The article is not about Americans leaving America because of taxes. It is about Americans who live abroad (expatriates) who are giving up their citizenship because they don't want to pay taxes to two countries.

" More Americans abroad giving up citizenship for lower taxes "

Read the title of the thread............... How can you twist that to mean something diffrent, it is plain english.

Marc should have relized before posting this tripe that intelligent people would take offense at it.
It was interesting to me which is why I posted it. I know a lot of people who have, and a few that are planning to get, dual citizenship in several different countries. I don't know any giving up their US citizenship, however.

The article is general and focused on people who don't want to pay taxes, as well as the US tax law changes going back a number of years. I thought it was interesting that the US is the only major country which taxes income made and already taxed in another country.

As to your use of the 'democrats' word in a provocative sentence, I re-read the article and don't see a political party cited for any reason. The closest it came was "Concern about taxes among expatriates has surged since President George W. Bush signed into law a bill that sharply increases tax rates for Americans abroad with income of more than $82,400 a year." which has nothing to do with democrats. You pulled that out of your hat which is why several people noted that we keep politics out of discussions here. That said, and I hesitated to even quote the article, please - No politics. Between 1999 and late 2002 we had a fire storm here involving politics and I will not allow that to be repeated.

Where is this story on the cove:
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/12/15/061215180641.fuw3ri1r.html

per capita france has many more leaving for taxes, also note france taxes the people at 60%. Why is it not posted?
I hope your expectations aren't that for every news article cited here another one expressing another or opposite view will be posted. The short story is you posted a link to another similar situation so - It is now posted.

" More Americans abroad giving up citizenship for lower taxes "

Read the title of the thread............... How can you twist that to mean something diffrent, it is plain english.

What part of "More Americans Abroad..." are you having trouble with? As Cari correctly pointed out, the article pertains to American citizens who already live in other countries, not to Americans who are here and leaving because of taxes.

Okay better understood then Marc. I completley read the article from a diffrent prospective. I will settle down.......

Okay better understood then Marc. I completley read the article from a diffrent prospective. I will settle down.......
http://elsmar.com/jpg/emilylitellakt2.jpg

Never mind... :D

I'm all for citizenship in the Conch Republic:agree1:

It's interesting to compare tax rates of different countries (http://www.worldwide-tax.com/index.asp#partthree).

I cannot comprehend tossing aside my citizenship for any reason:nope:

I can't imaging tossing aside my citizenship, either.

But note this line from the article:
"Matthew Ledvina, an international tax lawyer in Geneva, said demand for legal counsel on the citizenship issue was coming largely from American citizens who hold second passports and who have minimal ties to the United States.

He said some expatriates were weighing the value of their American passports and debating whether it was worth keeping them if the cost topped $50,000 a year."


I guessing many of these people perhap were born in the US to foreign parents, or married a US citizen. For such people, giving up a US citizenship is nto quite the same as for someone born, raised, and living in the US. US Citizenship is great, but I'm sure that many Covers are equally proud of their citizenships from around the world.

Could very well be what you said Tim. No real family ties here in the US going back to the early 1600's Dutch Traders in the Hudson Valley like some of us. Or even earlier...

US Citizenship is great, but I'm sure that many Covers are equally proud of their citizenships from around the world.

That is a great point. Citizenship should be about where you want to hang your hat, and not about tax considerations. Not sure if I raise my eyebrow more at the individuals dropping their citizenship, or a tax system that gives tax incentive to do so.

Trouble is, everything isn't always as black and white as it first appears. Take, for example, the following scenario which is an absolutely true situation.

A very prominent multi-millionaire corporate attorney resides on 36th street in New York City in one of the few single family homes in Murray Hill. Actually, he resides there "almost full-time", with a short annual stay at his "legal" residence on the Isle of Man. That is where his business is "officially" located as well. Apparently he has to make the tiresome trek back to Europe every year to maintain his Isle of Man citizenship.

Before the tax laws were changed, income earned in a foreign country were subject to the tax of that country and not taxed in the U.S. This worked out very well if your company was located on the Isle of Man. Actually, it worked nicely for pretty much all the channel islands as most of them have no taxes. They are supported under various treaties with the E.U. or with their "protectorate" countries.

The New York attorney's income came from the Isle of Man company and because he was "officially" a resident of the Isle of Man, his "foreign earnings" were not subject to tax in the U.S. I'm sure there had to be a few adjustments to make everything work smoothly but being an attorney probably would help.

It is my understanding that the new laws still allow $80K of taxable income before any U.S. tax is imposed. With a good accountant and a good corporate attorney, I wonder how many millions you would have to earn to to end up with a taxable income of $80K.

As another thought, I wonder how many Americans living and working in another country actually have a taxable income above $80K.

Dave

I cannot comprehend tossing aside my citizenship for any reason:nope:

I agree, my Canadian citizenship is the one that will stay with me my whole life I was born here, I was raised here, and no matter where I go or live I'm still a Canadian. :)

Dimitri

it is a sensitive issue so i shall not comment on that.:truce:

it is a sensitive issue so i shall not comment on that.:truce:

Yeah, I think so.

I cannot comprehend tossing aside my citizenship for any reason:nope:

As a naturalized citizen of the US, I could never, ever see me do this.

I know Democrats and Republicans don't see eye to eye, but American (US) Citizenship is the best one to have. I talk out of experience on this one.

There's a reason why people risk their lives to get over here. I haven't seen to many Ameican building rafts to escape to Cuba, or any other country for that matter.

I know Democrats and Republicans don't see eye to eye, but American (US) Citizenship is the best one to have. I talk out of experience on this one.

Everything great that you're happy to be American, but aren't you trying to make a point similar to "pizza is the best food in the world and I talk out of experience on this one"? If you want to get scientific on this topic and get into "which country is the best", you might want to check some international studies being done on overall happiness in countries all over the world. IIRC it's Sweden or some other extremely happy Scandinavian country :cool: .

When I say I talk out of experience, I really mean that since I have been a citizen of another country I can see the difference between the US and other countries in the world.

I don't think there is one single country that is the best country in the world.

If you want choice and freedom to do with your life what you want, go to the US.

If you want the government to take care of you, go to Sweden or some other West European country.

If you want to make almost just as much money on welfare as people that work for a living, go to the Netherlands.

See, there are good and bad things about every country in the world. I do know however that I pay a lot less taxes here in the US than I did in the Netherlands ..... A LOT LESS !!!!!

By the way, that's not the reason why I moved to the US, my wife was the reason. She didn't want to live in the Netherlands. She says it's WAY to crowded over there.

If you want to make almost just as much money on welfare as people that work for a living, go to the Netherlands.

:lmao: just join the people on welfare! :lmao:

But seriously, glad we agree that there are a lot of different ways to look at countries. To get back on topic a bit more, paying taxes should always be compared to the benefit you get from those taxes. The woman in the article didn't have any benefit from her US taxes, so fair deal to skip US citizenship IMHO.

:lmao: just join the people on welfare! :lmao:


Honestly, I would get bored really quick. :)

The clichés are very strong in this topic....

Anyway....the passport is just a piece of paper.
Back to topic:
If I am citizen of country X and decide (and have the possibility) to live in country Y, why should I be taxed 2 times?

The clichés are very strong in this topic....

Anyway....the passport is just a piece of paper.
Back to topic:
If I am citizen of country X and decide (and have the possibility) to live in country Y, why should I be taxed 2 times?

Are you? I'm not! I pay no taxes to the UK government (thank heavens!) but I do pay them here in the USA. I'm a citizen of the UK here on a green (pink) card.

Are you? I'm not! I pay no taxes to the UK government (thank heavens!) but I do pay them here in the USA. I'm a citizen of the UK here on a green (pink) card.

Ditto here....

Andy, you and I are taxed without representation....:lol:
Does that remind you of something that happened in history????

Stijloor.

The clichés are very strong in this topic....

Anyway....the passport is just a piece of paper.
Back to topic:
If I am citizen of country X and decide (and have the possibility) to live in country Y, why should I be taxed 2 times?


Because you are subject to the laws and protections of both?

Ditto here....

Andy, you and I are taxed without representation....:lol:

Stijloor.

As is everyone who lives in Washington DC, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, the American Virgin Islands and Guam.

As is everyone who lives in Washington DC, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, the American Virgin Islands and Guam.

Time for a Tea Party! :lol:

Stijloor.

Ditto here....

Andy, you and I are taxed without representation....:lol:
Does that remind you of something that happened in history????

Stijloor.

Yeah, I'm thinking of moving to either Boston (I'd be near my offices) or Williamsburg. I might get together with some like minded people and start some form of civil disobedience! Maybe see if I can meet up with Paul Revere and the Raiders, throw some teabags into the harbor, get a pipe band together etc.:lmao:

Yeah, I'm thinking of moving to either Boston (I'd be near my offices) or Williamsburg. I might get together with some like minded people and start some form of civil disobedience! Maybe see if I can meet up with Paul Revere and the Raiders, throw some teabags into the harbor, get a pipe band together etc.:lmao:

And maybe we can shoot a Brit or 2? Or 10 or 12?:lol: (Toss in the occasional Northern European...(N Europe is where Hessians were from so maybe 1+1=3 here)

Andy - I've lived in NH while working at an office outside of Boston (Acton, MA) and have visited Williamsburg off and on for historical reenactments. If I were asked to choose between the 2, Williamsburg would win hands down.

Despite being the home of the Boston tea party, they don't give the nickname Taxachusetts to Massachusetts for no reason.

Of course, if you want to protest in a more symbolic way, both areas offer an opportunity to become involved in groups that re-enact the American Revolution. :) Just think, as a colonial re-enactor you can fire your musket (blanks, naturally) at re-enactors portraying the hated British oppressors or Hessian hired soldiers. Then when day ends you can head back to camp to share a good beer with them. :D

Because you are subject to the laws and protections of both?


I really don't think that....why should I be subject to X's laws if I am living in Y?

As for protections...hmmmm....better not to get on that one...never liked to use condoms...

Andy - I've lived in NH while working at an office outside of Boston (Acton, MA)

My office is in Acton (starring location of Fox's new drama 'Fringe')!!

Is that a co-incidence or did you work for my organization in the past, per chance?

And maybe we can shoot a Brit or 2? Or 10 or 12?:lol: (Toss in the occasional Northern European...(N Europe is where Hessians were from and Hessians were Germans so maybe 1+1=3 here)

Hey you, watch it! Most of those folks shooting, back in the day, were Brits shooting at Brits, so you can't join in bud - sorry!

Hey you, watch it! Most of those folks shooting, back in the day, were Brits shooting at Brits, so you can't join in bud - sorry!

Funny thing about all that.......My mom couldn't be a member of the DAR on one side of the family because a paternal ancestor was a Hessian:lol:

To all you ex-pats living and paying taxes in the USA -

:thanks:

Good Morning Andy - coincidence, I'm sure. At the time I worked for Airco Industrial Gases as a Regional (field) engineer. Airco became BOC, which I believe was purchased by Linde, or possibly Air Liquide

Good Morning Andy - coincidence, I'm sure. At the time I worked for Airco Industrial Gases as a Regional (field) engineer. Airco became BOC, which I believe was purchased by Linde, or possibly Air Liquide

Kevin - even more co-incidental is that I was part of the audit team that awarded BOC it's registration here in the USA, during the early 90's. I seem to remember visiting the corp HQ in Cherry Hill, NJ - if that's correct?

Small world, indeed!