Here's a tongue in cheek suggestion.

Why don't we have two threads running -
one for the fans of ISO 9001 who believe it has to be implemented in its spirit and aligned with the organisation etc.
one for the anti ISO brigade who have to suffer it because it exists in their company and are only interested in getting through the periodic audits with as little fuss as possible


Perhaps then we will get over some of the running battles that seem to run through the cove - or is it only the threads I subscribe to? :notme:

Paul,

I moved your thread to this board, as this is the appropriate place to discuss this.

I don't think the ISO issue is that black and white. Yes, there are those that "do it" just for the piece of paper, and others that believe it is the holy grail - but I think most of us fall somewhere in between.

Just my :2cents: .

I think that would be more a more appropriate action for 6 Sigma threads.

I love ISO9000 and all other QMS systems you can register to.
It keeps me employed. :cool:

Paul,

I moved your thread to this board, as this is the appropriate place to discuss this.

I don't think the ISO issue is that black and white. Yes, there are those that "do it" just for the piece of paper, and others that believe it is the holy grail - but I think most of us fall somewhere in between.

Just my :2cents: .

Not sure I agree it is the most approriate place, Carol but I'll go with your judgement.

I agree it isn't a black and white issue - there are bits of ISO that even I think are given undue attention and could be better described. My point is that there are broadly two camps - those who think ISO is a good thing and those that suffer it.

As I said my tongue was firmly in my cheek!

Here's a tongue in cheek suggestion.

Why don't we have two threads running -

one for the fans of ISO 9001 who believe it has to be implemented in its spirit and aligned with the organisation etc.
one for the anti ISO brigade who have to suffer it because it exists in their company and are only interested in getting through the periodic audits with as little fuss as possible
Perhaps then we will get over some of the running battles that seem to run through the cove - or is it only the threads I subscribe to? :notme:
All this time, I thought that bulge in your cheek was a chaw of tobacco or a toothache!;)

Perhaps then we will get over some of the running battles that seem to run through the cove - or is it only the threads I subscribe to? :notme:
While you DID SAY toung and cheek......

I for one truly appreciate the "running battles". :applause:
Differences of opinion and interpretation whether lively or sedate seem to give me the most insight on solving my particular issues when they appear.
The well thought out diversities allow me to form my own resolutions that will work best in my company.
After all, is that not what this forum is all about?
I am grateful to each of you whether I agree with you or not.

Just my humble thoughts:o

Why don't we have two threads running -
Nooooo! Don't do that! :rolleyes: I learn a lot by comparing the differences of opinion as well as the insights I get from the gurus who agree but interpret in various ways.

Differences of opinion and interpretation whether lively or sedate seem to give me the most insight on solving my particular issues when they appear.
The well thought out diversities allow me to form my own resolutions that will work best in my company.
After all, is that not what this forum is all about?Yes, it is. :agree1: While net decorum is necessary, the lively clash of ideas permeates the most interesting threads in this website. How boring would the Cove be if we only had yes-men.

My opinions:argue:wrong opinions.
:tg:

I can't get beyond the thread title: Split the forum - ISO Fans vs. ISO Foes:jawdrop: It creeps me out. My :2cents: worth. Time for a big group:bighug: .:lmao:

My point is that there are broadly two camps - those who think ISO is a good thing and those that suffer it.

In it's simplest sense, ISO is just a recommended list of good management and good manufacturing practice. I just can't rationalized how people can suffer from it.

If there are problems, it's usually due to the way it is implemented and less because of the standard itself.

By the way, we learn through other peoples success and failures as well. So I am not in favour of splitting the forum.

Regards.

Here's a tongue in cheek suggestion.

Why don't we have two threads running -
one for the fans of ISO 9001 who believe it has to be implemented in its spirit and aligned with the organisation etc.
one for the anti ISO brigade who have to suffer it because it exists in their company and are only interested in getting through the periodic audits with as little fuss as possible




Nice try, Phil. But where's the poll? :D

While you DID SAY toung and cheek......

Absolutely, it was the devil in me that made me do it!
I for one truly appreciate the "running battles". :applause:
Differences of opinion and interpretation whether lively or sedate seem to give me the most insight on solving my particular issues when they appear.
The well thought out diversities allow me to form my own resolutions that will work best in my company.
After all, is that not what this forum is all about?
I am grateful to each of you whether I agree with you or not.

Just my humble thoughts:o By no means humble, crendfrey. On the contrary you have reinvigorated a sad old hack who was considering taking up fishing instead of coving.

I've been "contributing" to a couple of threads recently, looked back on them in the cold light of day and thought: "Who could possibly get anything from this boxing match?"

I'm going off to scour through the cove and see if I can shoot down any other apologists for bad certification - where's the masked crusader emoticon when you need it? :lmao:

Here's a tongue in cheek suggestion.And a not entirely tongue in cheek reply:

We already suffer badly from a certain malady in this line of work: We do a lot of our preaching to those who have already seen the light: Among ourselves. What we really need is to hone our marketing skills: We have a product (QA and management systems - the useful version) we need to actively promote and sell, because contrary to common beliefs it is not going to sell itself. Those running battles are good training.

As missionarys of Q, we need to convert the heathens, which is an altogether more daunting task than our internal quibbling.

/Claes

I don't think that we should be friend or foe to make our point but I would take it as ISO is implemented in many differnt nature of organizations, cultures, countries & alot of diverse people work in that. So there must be diffence in opinion about many things in ISO.

Yea tho I walk thru the valley of the shadow of standards, I fear no auditor. The cove and its posters comfort me. They leadeth me to right decisions..... The divirsity opens my eyes to options I would not find on my own. I truly appreciate the differences of opinions here. Thanks to all.

Yea tho I walk thru the valley of the shadow of standards, I fear no auditor. The cove and its posters comfort me. They leadeth me to right decisions.....

I laughed out loud:biglaugh:

It is now a big sign above my desk......with credit given:yes:

The question is..... do I remove it before my surveillance audit next month?

.......I think not......hummmmmm

Yea tho I walk thru the valley of the shadow of standards, I fear no auditor. The cove and its posters comfort me. They leadeth me to right decisions..... The divirsity opens my eyes to options I would not find on my own. I truly appreciate the differences of opinions here. Thanks to all.When the auditor hurts you with a major, turn the other chick.

If I had the time, I would come up with the 10 ISO Commandments....:lol:

And don't forget the 12 step program :lmao:

ISO Powerless

1. I admitted I was powerless over ISO9000 - that my life had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that another TREND greater than ISO9000 could restore me to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of THE NEW TREND as I understood it.
4. Made a searching and fearless procedural inventory of our operation.
5. Admitted to THE NEW TREND, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have THE NEW TREND remove all these defects of procedure.
7. Humbly asked THE NEW TREND to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make new procedures for them all.
9. Made new procedures to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take process audits and when we were wrong promptly applied corrective action.
11. Sought through management review and preventative action to improve our conscious contact with THE NEW TREND as we understood THE NEW TREND, asking only for knowledge of THE NEW TREND's intent for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to Management Representatives, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Thanks for the laugh.

On a more serious note, I have found that ones opinion of ISO 9001 (or any other standard for that matter) is almost 100% dependant on the culture of the company.

I have worked in both anti and pro ISO environments (yes, I was the one having to implement the program :rolleyes: ). In all cases, the program was implemented; however, the time taken in the "pro" environment was much quicker AND the return on investment was seen much sooner than in the "anti" environment.

Unfortunately, the "wallpaper" syndrome also leads to people (especially rank and file personnel) to thinking that ISO is nothing but a waste of time and a lot of paperwork for nothing (i.e. a company is certified; however, the same problems keep being raised with the company without resolution).

If we were to split the forums, I would be forced to join 2 forums! Yeesh, I have a hard enough time trying to keep up to one!