5s office, do you think it apply to every office?

I have discussed this with my friends, they are strong 5s office program supporters. They think you should have a 5s office program if you are implementing a 5s program, with no exception.

My opinion is that the only objective of making a 5s office is to elevate the corporate image, in case the customers visit your office, so that they can feel good. And it has nothing to do with product quality, so my conclusion is that as long as the office looks not bad, it is unnecessary to have a 5s program for it.

Do you think that there is a situation in which 5s program doesn’t apply to an office? And what is the situation? If you are against my idea, your opinion is welcome too.

There are some benefits to using 5S in an office environment, especially if you have a number of particularly untidy people who have a lot of paperwork spread around their desks, don't file things etc. Also, it can be a way of demonstrating equality of the program between the manufacturing and office people.

I've experienced 5S this way, however, it turned out to be over-done. footprinting waste bins/trash cans, telephones etc, then being audited and written up for having too many of your kids' drawings & paintings or photographs on your office wall, is, IMHO, just stupid.....

So, my advice is, tell the folks, who aren't organized in their offices, to clean up their act and leave 5S in manufacturing only.

Andy

5s office, do you think it apply to every office?

darkafar, why not ? I extend the 5 S concepts at my home also.

Firstly, remember that when these concepts or any systems are adopted, its for our betterment, be it individuals or organisation.

There are some benefits to using 5S in an office environment, especially if you have a number of particularly untidy people who have a lot of paperwork spread around their desks, don't file things etc. Also, it can be a way of demonstrating equality of the program between the manufacturing and office people.

I've experienced 5S this way, however, it turned out to be over-done. footprinting waste bins/trash cans, telephones etc, then being audited and written up for having too many of your kids' drawings & paintings or photographs on your office wall, is, IMHO, just stupid.....

So, my advice is, tell the folks, who aren't organized in their offices, to clean up their act and leave 5S in manufacturing only.

Andy

We're thinking of 5S for the entire plant here including offices. I share your concerns about the over rigidity.
I have seen it work well at P&G in their offices, but their culture lent itself well to that.

If we don't adopt a rigid system, maybe we can use a set of concepts for the offices?

...it turned out to be over-done.... being audited and written up for having too many of your kids' drawings & paintings or photographs on your office wall, is, IMHO, just stupid.....

it's nice when we can agree on things...:)


So, my advice is, tell the folks, who aren't organized in their offices, to clean up their act and leave 5S in manufacturing only.



I can see it in common office areas. Organization is always good. it's when it is overdone that it becomes counter productive...

PS: thanks for the idea about writing an NC on too many photos...hmmm...

it's nice when we can agree on things...:)
...

Why 'H', I really appreciate that!:bigwave: :cool: ;) :lol:

Andy

The problem that I have seen with the application of 5S within an office environment is that it can be comparable to an organization that goes for ISO 9001 just to get the piece of paper on the wall.

To say that 5S in an office is all about tidy papers and orderly desk drawers is going through the motions of applying the methodology but does not address the heart of the concept.

My organization has evolved 5S to apply to both our production and office environments. We've tailored our criteria to meet the needs of the user. We've also ensured that our 5S goes beyond paperwork in the office and that items are included that have a focus on the environment (e.g., energy usage) and safety. The idea of e-paperwork is often neglected and have adopted a culture of using common folders and directories so that electronic files are easily located by all that need them.

Does 5S in an office have an impact on product quality? Not directly. But consider this...how often are people left waiting because someone can't find a file? Administration's "customer" can be production and if they're left waiting for something from the office due to a poorly organized environment, then I'd suggest that the 5S methodology be incorporated into the administrative function, as well.

It all boils down to going beyond the basics of 5S and truly adopting the methodology to heart...efficiency, waste elimination, effectiveness.

To add to Roxane's good post:

I agree there is no reason to overdo the 5S thing in an office, but it can be useful.

Possible benefits of 5S in the office:

1. Being able to find a file if the owner is out for illness, travel etc.

2. Cleanliness, or at least tidiness, and adequate lighting can help people perform at better levels than in dirty, poorly lit environments.

3. A reasonable level of cleanliness may help reduce illness. I have read the office environment actually harbors large contagious virus and bacterial counts.

4. Hazards can be reduced. Electrical cords running on the floor, stacked things to trip over and fire hazards from excess paper clutter could be more manageable.

Risks of 5S:

1. Overexcited programs could take away people's essence of individualism. A reasonable number of pictures and personal items should be allowed if they provide a sense of comfort to their owners and are not a nuisance to others.

2. Rigidly standardizing becomes a nuisance, like footprinting trash cans. Providing enough, readily accessible trash cans is good. Becoming agitated if they are moved 1 meter is not good.

3. It's possible to overdo cleanliness. The object is to improve well being, not to instill fear of sneezing or making a spot.

4. Make things auditable to the extent they impact productivity and quality. If you are in a clean room facility, then a torn chair pad is probably rightly auditable. In a normal office such attention to upholstery is probably too much unless it is unseemly for customers.

In the end it's a decision making process. The question "Why is this important?" should always be in our minds during improvement efforts, so we don't do a lot of chasing around.

Good points, Jennifer.

I, too, can see benefits to 5S in an office environment, but agree that it needs to be kept from doing it just for the sake of "being a 5S office", and should provide benefits to the processes in the office areas.

A person that worked for me went to a Clorox subsidiary plant, and they have a program like this for ALL Clorox facilities, she told me. It kind of freaked her out at first, she said, as she was not a neat freak, and liked to be individualistic in her office setup. She said she has realized the benefits of being able to find things though, both in her office and in others.

I'd think that would be a major benefit, in that the workspaces of every office have a common setup and workflow, so that if someone falls out, the entire office would not grind to a halt. That, and smoother workflow.

We are getting ready to remodel the lab here, and I will be instituting some 5S into it, as we try to streamline rooms to fit our analysis processes and cut down on waste. I hope it becomes a model for other parts of our facility.

Eons ago, I worked with a Technicial Director who was one of the nationally recognized experts in the rubber industries. He was involved in developing the Rubber Manufacturing Association standards.
His office contained neatly piled stacks of documents, files, reports, etc.
The stacks were on his desk, table, chairs, and on the floor in each corner.
if you asked him for something, he knew exactly which stack it was in, and where in the stack. A brilliant mind, and nice guy too. No one ever thought to ask him to do anything else.

Good points, Jennifer.

A person that worked for me went to a Clorox subsidiary plant, and they have a program like this for ALL Clorox facilities, she told me. It kind of freaked her out at first, she said, as she was not a neat freak, and liked to be individualistic in her office setup. She said she has realized the benefits of being able to find things though, both in her office and in others.

I'd think that would be a major benefit, in that the workspaces of every office have a common setup and workflow, so that if someone falls out, the entire office would not grind to a halt. That, and smoother workflow.



That's how it was at P&G. The people were resistant at first until they realized how much it freed up their minds to think on bigger issues rather than using brain power trying to find a particular file or tool.

If this link works, it gives a lovely example of what happens when civil servants try and implement 5S in an office. The "active banana" reference is priceless.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tyne/6230629.stm

If this link works, it gives a lovely example of what happens when civil servants try and implement 5S in an office. The "active banana" reference is priceless.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tyne/6230629.stm

Hmmm...my response to the banana question is "If it's still mainly yellow, it's active. Otherwise, I shall simplify my workspace by sorting it into the trash can, which is located in its designated location."

5s of offices is a woeful idea. My desk is typically a mess (lots of paper across it) but I can still find everything as quickly as I can in the files I have in my drawers, I get my work done and I do it well. I clean my desk typically once a month and move the paper I have at that point either to one of our paper bins, into the files in my drawers or I scan it eletronically and then throw the hard copy out.

The difference between office work done by engineers and managers is typically very different to that done on a shop floor. The whole office 5s just stinks of consultants trying to make a few bucks.

I have a friend, a computer programmer, who's company hired one of these consultants to implement 5s. All the consultants focus was on the physical office i.e. where computers were located on desks, what people had on desks, what pens they had in their drawers etc. Not once did the consultant look at electronic file storage, what versions of software and operating system were being used etc.

I don't ever see 5s having a place in offices, as far as I am aware it was a tool designed to improve manufacturing environments and IMO does not fit well into offices.

Thankfully I am in a position now where I can effectivley veto this sort of trash.

RC Beyette's posting is right-on.
5s is a matter of:
a) cleanliness and organization to operate more efficiently
b) standardization of activities/appearance

It is not a matter of using white gloves to do inspections, like a drill instructor, to insure cubicles are well-kept. Points of public interaction & affect yes, but not the individual.

A few years ago Holiday Inn mandated a clean up program for their franchisees; seems the stained carpets and shoddy lobbies of a few motels had hurt the reputation of the entire organization. HQ communicated their thoughts, the "hot buttons" regarding customer perceptions, and the penalties for non-compliance.
Then they did the walk-throughs!

One registrar I used to recommend would consistently e-mail quotes that included the Microsoft squiggly lines (red & green) highlighting spelling and grammatical errors...bad first impression.

One of the world's worst books covers this subject, "5s for Service Organizations and Offices." Follow the author's advice and be sure to make enemies and become unemployed!

The Madfox

I have to think that some of the ideas of 5s lean would be quite useful in an office environment. However, I can see how overzealous application could easily become a nuisance...i.e. "is that an active banana".

Personally, I would keep 5s focused on manufacturing and out of the office. In the office I would however promote the ideas behind lean thinking. A well organized office space can only improve daily operations. Further, there are many opportunities for financial savings in any area of operations by reducing redundant systems and waste.

But as for the original question, no, I do not think 5s for offices applies to every office space, but I do think it should be considered. Map out the pros/cons and evaluate how useful it would be. In some scenarios it may not be practical, in others it may be quite useful. As with any other quality program I would say evaluate it's usefulness, put to use any ideas that your organization can benefit from and discard portions that are not practical.

We had an internal audit finding, followed by a customer audit finding, followed by a 3rd party audit finding, all on housekeeping (specifically against TS 6.4.2) Was it a subjective judgment call? Probably. Did that make it invalid? No.

My executive management asked me to go through every single inch of our 25,000 square foot facility and write up every single thing from the point of view of the most out-of-control auditor I had ever met. With great trepidation, I complied. Within 24 hours, said report was handed to every engineer in the front office with the command to "clean up your act" (not by me, what a disaster). Once the dust settled (and I got the casts removed) and we discussed the report like a team instead of adversaries, there were several folks who admitted to some excess: one who moved over a cubic yard of "stuff" from under his desk to the dumpster, one who moved "a little excessive and maybe unprofessional" (his words) collection of muscle car memorabilia from his cubicle to his den at home, and one who admitted that the metal shelves now holding his laboratory notebooks looked much better than the 5 foot high stack of temporary cardboard organizers.

The root cause of our office problems was an unorganized and inefficient use of space. We spent a considerable amount on removing all of the 16 year old dividers, replacing about 8,000 square feet of 16 year old carpet and dividing the space in a fashion that suits our current structure, with room for growth.

Sure, apply 5S in the office properly and you will see positive return. Work as a team and be sensitive to the fact that everyone doesn't need your level of organization because they do not have a DNV TS auditor breathing down their neck. Set a standard for # of personal pictures on your credenza or write folks up for pens in their pencil jar and you are doomed.

5s of offices is a woeful idea. My desk is typically a mess (lots of paper across it) but I can still find everything as quickly as I can in the files I have in my drawers, I get my work done and I do it well. I clean my desk typically once a month and move the paper I have at that point either to one of our paper bins, into the files in my drawers or I scan it eletronically and then throw the hard copy out.

The difference between office work done by engineers and managers is typically very different to that done on a shop floor. The whole office 5s just stinks of consultants trying to make a few bucks.

I have a friend, a computer programmer, who's company hired one of these consultants to implement 5s. All the consultants focus was on the physical office i.e. where computers were located on desks, what people had on desks, what pens they had in their drawers etc. Not once did the consultant look at electronic file storage, what versions of software and operating system were being used etc.

I don't ever see 5s having a place in offices, as far as I am aware it was a tool designed to improve manufacturing environments and IMO does not fit well into offices.

Thankfully I am in a position now where I can effectivley veto this sort of trash.


I don't think the intent of 5S in an office deals with wheter YOU can find stuff. It deals with common areas where multiple people have to use an area. In that example, the desk you described would not be suitable. The only thing 5S would do to your desk is probably pretty it up a bit. Not a bad thing in itself. Your cowrokers are probably not keen on looking at a messy desk. But for now, you are safe.

But, orderliness, and neatness is almost always a good thing. Apparently, you agree, otherwise you wouldn't clean up each month.

We had an internal audit finding, followed by a customer audit finding, followed by a 3rd party audit finding, all on housekeeping (specifically against TS 6.4.2) Was it a subjective judgment call? Probably. Did that make it invalid? No.

My executive management asked me to go through every single inch of our 25,000 square foot facility and write up every single thing from the point of view of the most out-of-control auditor I had ever met. With great trepidation, I complied. Within 24 hours, said report was handed to every engineer in the front office with the command to "clean up your act" (not by me, what a disaster). Once the dust settled (and I got the casts removed) and we discussed the report like a team instead of adversaries, there were several folks who admitted to some excess: one who moved over a cubic yard of "stuff" from under his desk to the dumpster, one who moved "a little excessive and maybe unprofessional" (his words) collection of muscle car memorabilia from his cubicle to his den at home, and one who admitted that the metal shelves now holding his laboratory notebooks looked much better than the 5 foot high stack of temporary cardboard organizers.

The root cause of our office problems was an unorganized and inefficient use of space. We spent a considerable amount on removing all of the 16 year old dividers, replacing about 8,000 square feet of 16 year old carpet and dividing the space in a fashion that suits our current structure, with room for growth.

Sure, apply 5S in the office properly and you will see positive return. Work as a team and be sensitive to the fact that everyone doesn't need your level of organization because they do not have a DNV TS auditor breathing down their neck. Set a standard for # of personal pictures on your credenza or write folks up for pens in their pencil jar and you are doomed.


sounds like the end results was beneficial, but it could ahve been done with less drama and chaos. As an auditor, I wish clients would respond to my findings with a calm thoughtful approach. It would be better for everyone.

I don't think the intent of 5S in an office deals with wheter YOU can find stuff.You are correct. I made an initial visit to a supplier to survey and make a decision on whether to add them to the approved supplier list. They are ISO9001 registered and I had no problems with the technical quality of their sample product nor the controls in their production operation. However, the 5S in their office areas gave me pause. EVERY vertical surface in the QA Manager's office had a stack of paper at least 2-3 ft high (including the floor along each wall). Both of the order entry folks work areas looked like a case of copy paper had exploded. The production manager's office was a close contender. One year later, delivery issues and inconsistent responses to quotes, purchase orders and action requests are causing us to begin removing this supplier from our supply chain. Product Quality: Excellent. Logistical support: Appalling. I should have seen it coming.
sounds like the end results was beneficial, but it could ahve been done with less drama and chaos. As an auditor, I wish clients would respond to my findings with a calm thoughtful approach. It would be better for everyone.With the exception of an unfortunate release of what the FBI calls "raw data" on housekeeping, there was a lack of drama and chaos. The biggest problem was that we had gone from feedback where small to mid-size companies looked at our facility and said, "Wow, this place looks great!" to large automotive Tier 1's and registrars that said "You've got a lot of room for improvement." We had to accept and adjust to opposing feedback and we had to do it from the shipping dock to the President of the company.

I am trying to us it in my office!!

Good luck with that.

5S can bring many benefits. Let me just caution not to get "carried away" with it and do things like forbid people to have a picture on their desk.

In other words, the purpose must not be for looks/aesthetics only but more to inculcate good work habits - cleanliness/organized/common-sense.

It is my belief that all areas should be 5S or in some companies 6S. Housekeeping policies should be for everyone.

"Remember... Clean up after yourself, Your mother doesn't work here."

Attached is a spreadsheet that outlines the Factory guidlines and the office guidelines.:cool:

5,s In the office --- this has been discussed in many places I am sure ....just to put my opnion forward ...

To me you have to work out Why do we want to implement 5's in the office or anywhere else for that matter ....if it is to make it easier for factory people to except or to make all participate in a lean tool its all good and well ...but ...5's is start of waste elimination ...right ...so we should not do it to make customer happy or make the place "CLEAN" ....I hear people so many times talk about 5's and TIDY /CLEAN /SWEP THE FLOOR ...is this what 5's is about ?....
if you have this view
you really have to ask yourself "DO I UNDERSTAND WHAT 5"S really is?"

To me if you are going to Implement something...you have to know how to measure it....that is before implementation and after.... SO ask yourself How can I measure the improvement of 5's ...?
And I am not talking about an Audit tool here at all....Audit tools are unfortunatly based around how clean things look....

Office I worked in had implemented 5's ...or as people understood it was to keep the desks clean ...pretty sad really but this is what will happen if we dont concentarate on the heart of 5's ...it has nothing to do with keeping the office tidy ....:whip: cos your boss wants it...

5's is about having the the the Shop floor talking to you ...its visual management its waste elimination ...so to have the blank paper next to the copier where people can see it is about to run out is the best place ...not in the cupboard under it cos it looks tidy ...so call it 5's call it what ever you want it to but do it for the right reason.....

you really have to ask yourself "DO I UNDERSTAND WHAT 5"S really is?"

To me if you are going to Implement something...you have to know how to measure it....that is before implementation and after.... SO ask yourself How can I measure the improvement of 5's ...?
And I am not talking about an Audit tool here at all....Audit tools are unfortunatly based around how clean things look....

I think that what you are hitting on here is key. Do you (I, and everyone else) understand what it is and why it is being done? Do we have a way to measure that will make sense to everyone and give us informaton that will keep people interested? But most of all, are the people who are leading the implementation teaching the right message?


Office I worked in had implemented 5's ...or as people understood it was to keep the desks clean ...pretty sad really but this is what will happen if we dont concentarate on the heart of 5's ...it has nothing to do with keeping the office tidy ....:whip: cos your boss wants it...

So, implementation was not effective?



5's is about having the the the Shop floor talking to you ...its visual management its waste elimination ...so to have the blank paper next to the copier where people can see it is about to run out is the best place ...not in the cupboard under it cos it looks tidy ...so call it 5's call it what ever you want it to but do it for the right reason.....

I hate it when people separate the "shop floor" from the rest of the company. This kind of thinking is what causes the typical us vs. them that so many manufacturing plants see. Yes, there may be more big dollar savings in the plant, but if you praise all positive efforts at eliminating waste, you will have a more unified and cohesive team effort.

:2cents:

I think that what you are hitting on here is key. Do you (I, and everyone else) understand what it is and why it is being done? Do we have a way to measure that will make sense to everyone and give us informaton that will keep people interested? But most of all, are the people who are leading the implementation teaching the right message?



So, implementation was not effective?

Firstly thanks for your thoughts :)
Its a simple answer to that question, if people think 5's is about keeping their desks tidy ..Obviously It wasnt effective, To address the real issues we will have to anylise why it wasnt effective .. was it the communication? ...was it the training / knowledge ...was it not wanting to change...(Most people think that people dont like change ) thats not the case at all it is people dont like being changed..so it is a process that needs to looked at very closely to find out root cause of the problem.


I hate it when people separate the "shop floor" from the rest of the company. This kind of thinking is what causes the typical us vs. them that so many manufacturing plants see. Yes, there may be more big dollar savings in the plant, but if you praise all positive efforts at eliminating waste, you will have a more unified and cohesive team effort.

:2cents:

I completely agree with you there us and them is something that no one needs... :applause:
In my humble opnion a Lot of the time this happens as there is no effective way of monitoring perfomance in the office ...yet you can do this quite easy in the shop floor...so if we want to stop us and them we need to come up with a solution to this problem.... I have spoken to many lean people through out the automotive world and this always comes up as a reason... They do the 5's in the office reguardless (in an effort not to seperate office and shop floor) but cant get it to be effective...sure the office looks clean but there is very little measureble effeciency gain

This is a real world problem at the moment...If we come up with a good system I am sure it will help many people......BUt we need to come up with a system not just woffle that is currently out there!....also I have looked around for a real 5's Audit tool...Its quite easy to find an audit tool ...but a good one that looks at the real gains of 5's is difficult to find...most audit tools seems to look at the first few "s" es in 5"S but there is no continous improvement or continous waste elemination ...sure it all looks clean and looks very presentable to all ...but does it have the snow ball effect of LEan ...not just 5's ?

Our company has gone on the obsessive side of 5s. Last month, they had Engineers and Managers (and everyone else) scrubbing walls that had been painted the month before. The walls had a couple of marks, but they had to scrub every inch of wall. For the amount of money that was wasted paying the people to do this (while not getting product made), we could have hired an outside contractor to repaint the walls again - or paid our maintenence personell (who had painted them previously) to do it again, and still saved money.

I refused to take my phone list off the wall as they told people they should. It would take me more time to find the folder the list is supposed to be in than to just look above my phone. I also still have 2 pictures of my husband (2"x3") as personal effects.

People ask how I can get away with "thumbing my nose" at the 5s efforts. My office stays neat and I can find anything they ask for within seconds, so they leave me alone.

Now, if they would only let me know when they "5s" some of the inspection equipment to the back warehouse, that would be progress!

Our company has gone on the obsessive side of 5s. Last month, they had Engineers and Managers (and everyone else) scrubbing walls that had been painted the month before. The walls had a couple of marks, but they had to scrub every inch of wall. For the amount of money that was wasted paying the people to do this (while not getting product made), we could have hired an outside contractor to repaint the walls again - or paid our maintenence personell (who had painted them previously) to do it again, and still saved money.

I refused to take my phone list off the wall as they told people they should. It would take me more time to find the folder the list is supposed to be in than to just look above my phone. I also still have 2 pictures of my husband (2"x3") as personal effects.

People ask how I can get away with "thumbing my nose" at the 5s efforts. My office stays neat and I can find anything they ask for within seconds, so they leave me alone.

Now, if they would only let me know when they "5s" some of the inspection equipment to the back warehouse, that would be progress!

I do not agree with people that come in and say that to "be" 5s, you have to have nothing on your walls. I agree (even though it doesn't always show) that an organized workspace is a more productive workspace. And, I for one would prefer (if I had a hard copy) that my phone list was on a wall vs. someone walking in while I'm away from my desk digging in file folders trying to find it.

As with any program, implementation is key, and implementation is always going to depend upon the highest use.

Our company has gone on the obsessive side of 5s. Last month, they had Engineers and Managers (and everyone else) scrubbing walls that had been painted the month before. The walls had a couple of marks, but they had to scrub every inch of wall. For the amount of money that was wasted paying the people to do this (while not getting product made), we could have hired an outside contractor to repaint the walls again - or paid our maintenence personell (who had painted them previously) to do it again, and still saved money.

I refused to take my phone list off the wall as they told people they should. It would take me more time to find the folder the list is supposed to be in than to just look above my phone. I also still have 2 pictures of my husband (2"x3") as personal effects.

People ask how I can get away with "thumbing my nose" at the 5s efforts. My office stays neat and I can find anything they ask for within seconds, so they leave me alone.

Now, if they would only let me know when they "5s" some of the inspection equipment to the back warehouse, that would be progress!

This is a perfect example of how people dont really understand what 5's is ...yet they think they are applying it....This sort of thing come from top management that went on a half day course and this is going to be the buzz word for this month...this sort of effort will never work ...I am really happy that you refused to take your phone list down :applause: the best place for the phone list is next to the phone... true "5's" ...true waste eliminatation ( looking for phone list)...on the other hand if there is a phone list that you use once a mont or something it may not need to be next to the phone as this is more likly to get in the way and there will be something that you use more often that could be in this space...

Cleaning the walls ...sweeping the floor is not 5's, its house keeping....YES there is a difference a BIG difference...until people understand what the difference is true "5s" will never take off....current programs will always show what i call
(surface "5s") which is a optical illusion of 5s...and has very little benifits ..