Our work instructions reference other documents including procedures on some. It is my thinking that there is no need to reference back to where you came from which is the procedure and only need to reference lateral or subsequent documents. Is this a true statement under ISO?

What if someone just has the work instruction and needs to find the higher level procedure?

Our work instructions reference other documents including procedures on some. It is my thinking that there is no need to reference back to where you came from which is the procedure and only need to reference lateral or subsequent documents. Is this a true statement under ISO?

I'd have to look at how my documents are constructed :confused: , but at first I agreed with your statement. Then my thought was, yes, if all searches are logically downwards from top level only. Rightly or wrongly, our docs are labeled with an ISO clause prefix, so if I'm looking at a W-75-xx it's an almmost sure bet I can find P-75-xx that pertains to the same subject. Do you have a similar system architecture?:2cents:

There is no ISO requirement for references or cross-references...IMHO

Our work instructions reference other documents including procedures on some. It is my thinking that there is no need to reference back to where you came from which is the procedure and only need to reference lateral or subsequent documents. Is this a true statement under ISO?

I prefer the 'KISS' principle, myself.

There's no 'ISO' requirement to do any cross-referencing in this way. You do need something which references 'down' through the system, but not 'upwards' IHMO. So what if someone gets hold of a WI which might have a procedure above it? Don't forget, the system of documentation is for people who are operating it and they should have a good grasp of the architecture of documents which affects them and their work.

Andy

*So what if someone gets hold of a WI which might have a procedure above it?*

I can't think of any W.I. that would not have a procedure above it in this case but, don't see the benefit of referencing it past tense.

Well as an almost newbie in QMS, I would *want* my coworkers to know the rationale of the WI.
I think of our SOP's as the who/what/where/when/why and the WI as the how. (i think i stole that from another poster here) In fact I think a lot of our WI's could be eliminated if we had better SOP's.

Well as an almost newbie in QMS, I would *want* my coworkers to know the rationale of the WI.
I agree (and am also an "almost newbie in QMS").

A system I have used at two different companies is to place a notation in the "footer" of the document as such:
governing document: xyz-123.doc

This notation references the next higher level document. If you were to then go to that document, you would find a similar notation in its footer calling out its "governing document" up until you reach the end result, which would be your quality manual.
-Dan-

Well as an almost newbie in QMS, I would *want* my coworkers to know the rationale of the WI.
I think of our SOP's as the who/what/where/when/why and the WI as the how. (i think i stole that from another poster here) In fact I think a lot of our WI's could be eliminated if we had better SOP's.

The rationale of a WI doesn't come from any cross reference to a procedure, it comes from (among other things) management encouraging the use of the documentation to control the organization's processes.;)

I agree with the elimination of WI's through better procedures. I also suggest that procedures could be reduced with better process documentation, too:mg:

Andy

I agree with the elimination of WI's through better procedures. I also suggest that procedures could be reduced with better process documentation, too:mg:

and more/better training in work practices :biglaugh:

I agree with the elimination of WI's through better procedures.

A work instruction is a type of "procedure."

I also suggest that procedures could be reduced with better process documentation, too:mg:
Andy

Work instructions and "procedures" are both types of process documentation.

If a work intrustion is created to implement requirements defined in other documents then it needs to include those as referanced documents so that when some one wants to revise it in the future they know what to validate their changes against. I personaly feel that one should never repeat criteria called out in a higher level document. If I need to call it out I would recomend clearly indicating it as a "referance call out" and thus indicating that you need to go to the controling document to find the current criteria.

If the work instruction is more of a "how to" and is truly stand alone then you would not need to referance/link to any other documents as changes would not impact them.

I reference other procedures, work instructions and the like in documents and I set up a section at the end to list all the references in one area so anyone can find any documents, including forms, that relate to the one they are looking at. I realize this adds a step or two to document revision. I do it because a lot of my clients really don't know the standard very well and it is a pretty effective tool to teach them the interaction within their system and how it relates to the standard. It isn't required but it is a very common practice.

Qualitygal

Some good feedback as usual here.The W.I. I am referring to here are basic how to type. One of the posts did bring up something I did not consider and that is if I review a W.I. for its necessity I may need to reference back to figure out if its still relevant.

Well as an almost newbie in QMS, I would *want* my coworkers to know the rationale of the WI.
I think of our SOP's as the who/what/where/when/why and the WI as the how. (i think i stole that from another poster here) In fact I think a lot of our WI's could be eliminated if we had better SOP's.

We intentionally write our procedures as higher level process overviews. There is only one procedure document for any of our processes. The steps within the procedure might contain enough information for performance or will refer to a work instruction(s) if that is needed. This has greatly enhanced our ability to change and improve groups of tasks (the work instructions) within a process without having to continually revise the entire procedure. The procedure document is built to primarily define the who/what/where/when while the work instructions explain the How (and sometimes the why) as well as references to any forms, specifications, guides or standards that are specifically needed. We have over 700 employees in 15 different sites across the United States and everyone in each site uses the same documents. Our entire system is web based and all documents are hyperlinked to each other. That has simplified getting from one document to another, but in case someone actually prints out the work instruction we also build a document relational flowchart for each procedure that includes all related documents. This flowchart is part of each work instruction. I have attached a simplifed version of what a flowchart could look like.

Juliana,
I am very new and thank you so much for giving direction on WI. I am having a hard time determining the difference between procedures and WI. I am afraid I may need to revise several documents because of my ignorance.
Kathy

Our work instructions reference other documents including procedures on some. It is my thinking that there is no need to reference back to where you came from which is the procedure and only need to reference lateral or subsequent documents. Is this a true statement under ISO?

I have the same experience in the plant where I've been working. What happend is that instead that the quality problem be solved in a snap, the guys in the shop floor keep on looking for the references ( which happend to be work instructions and procedures) that the procedure is siting, a waste of time. That's not good. Procedures are supposed to provide short cut/ clear cut instructions as to what a certain task be simply and clerarly done.

You have to be more practical. ISO standards tell you "what" has to be done...the "how" is left on us...

:evidence:

Our work instructions reference other documents including procedures on some. It is my thinking that there is no need to reference back to where you came from which is the procedure and only need to reference lateral or subsequent documents. Is this a true statement under ISO?

I would advise that you always tie your documents together it helps you see where you're going and coming from;)

During an audit your auditor be them internal or external may want to follow up on an issue concerning your documents and if they can't get from one place to another it may leave room for more questions and digging.


Cheers,

al40

Excellent Thread.:cool: