Hi fellow Covers....

I'm entering my 3rd year in this position and here I am considering our internal audit process again. The first year I was here (2005), we conducted our IAs as a team, the 3 of us (I'm the LA), and we were auditing one or more of our 15 processes every month. At the end of that year, my boss and I decided that a change was necessary. So, we developed the audit schedule and assigned each auditor 5 processes to audit for the next year (2006). The idea was that this would free up that precious commodity called "time", and at the same time build the auditors' confidence as they took on a more active roll in all phases of audit activities.....:rolleyes:

Well, that's not exactly what happened. Suffice it to say that they perform much better when they're part of a team. :bonk:

Ok, so now we're working on this year's audit schedule, and returning to working in teams. We have a new auditor who will be training with us, so we can work in teams of 2. We'll have to wait and see how this plan works...

Anyhow, I was just curious to find out how other companies handle their internal audits - do your auditors work in teams or alone? Would anyone like to share?

Here we have 3 LA´s. We schedule two audits per year and during these audits, each LA audits certain processes. The opening, closing and writing of the final report is done with the 3 together. During the audit, the 3 of us work together sharing info (ex. Auditor A while auditing incoming inspection will pass on the info to Auditor B who is auditing supplier qualification).

...

Anyhow, I was just curious to find out how other companies handle their internal audits - do your auditors work in teams or alone? Would anyone like to share?

We work in teams of 2 - one lead and 1 auditor. I have 6 lead auditors and 5 "regular" auditors.

We were all trained to work in teams - we think it works best that way.

I highly recomend that you look to use teams.
One thing that using teams promote is consistancy. As each auditor works with the others they get to see how it is viewed by other auditors in the group.
Nothing frustrates those being audited more than differnaces from auditor to auditor ( except findings that should at best be observations)

most of the time we audit in teams. safety in numbers? I have a couple of people, one on the quality side, one environmental that do not mind auditing on their own. We have about a dozen people trained for each quality and environmental, and started a cross training program last year so we could send 1 quality and 1 environmental auditor to an area and audit both.

I think it depends on the ability of the auditors as to whether they work in teams or alone. I find that less experienced auditors definitely work better in a team but more experienced ones (generally) tend to want to 'go their own way' and not have to worry about a team member.

I think that a team moves more quickly over the ground because they are cross checking each other as they go and it tends to produce more in-depth results but the team can only be in one place at one time if they stick together. Another potential problem is that an auditee may feel a bit intimidated by a team of 2 or 3 being in front of them all at once.

We work in teams of 2 - one lead and 1 auditor.

Same here and it does work well. :agree1:

Another potential problem is that an auditee may feel a bit intimidated by a team of 2 or 3 being in front of them all at once.

here the auditors like to go in teams to protect themselves from the auditees..."aren't ya gonna ask about" "I can tell you about" "Don'cha wanna ask me about" Even our external auditors have commented on our personnel's total lack of shyness around auditors.

here the auditors like to go in teams to protect themselves from the auditees..."
It sounds like the badlands!!:whip:

Well, I definitely don't have to worry about an auditor trying to sandbag, someone would let me know! lol

Actually, it's a good bunch of people and I truly enjoy working with them. I especially love to see it when a customer or an auditor hired by a customer comes in thinking that they are "gonna get us". When you have a group of people who truly make it their mission every day to do the right stuff, it is hard to fault them.

here the auditors like to go in teams to protect themselves from the auditees.

:lmao:

Having had my daily giggle and chuckle, seeing as how we have one system audit a year, we use the team approach. However, as there are multiple audits occurring concurrently, some of my more competent auditors are flying solo while the newer ones and those being assessed are paired up.

The number of auditors is also impacted by the type of audit. ISO internals have the approach mentioned above. 5S are typically pairs (safety issue and more eyes to look around). Standard audits (i.e., documents and process adherence) are solo'd by the supervisor. Safety Hours are in teams of 2-4, but my team branches out on solo adventures and gets back together later to compile notes.

Because I'm about 270+ and big enough to be 2 people I guess I'm a Team all by myself.:lol:

My auditors work as part of a team until they develop the confidence and competence to go solo.

Working as individuals makes it easier to incorporate the audits into our schedules and, as some of the audits are at our overseas plants, it's cheaper.

If any of the auditors experience problems they come to me. I'm not as big as Randy but I can still do a lot of damage.

Because I'm about 270+ and big enough to be 2 people I guess I'm a Team all by myself.:lol:

Randy don't exaggerate. :cool:

Gidget,

It really is the preference of the Lead auditor and the capabilities of the other auditors. Teams work well, but I have used teams and individuals. Teams work well, because a lot more can be accomplished in shorter time frames. But the individual has a more personal flare in my opinion.

I assign two auditors to each audit but typically they both end up saying they don't have time to do it and I go and do it myself to keep to the schedule.

Thats going a bit off topic so, based on previous jobs where my audit teams have been better, I would definitley recommend assigning more than one auditor to an audit.

Our company is small, with less than 20 employees. Most of the job tasks are only performed by one person, with some cross training to provide coverage for emergencies and vacations. We provide technical documentation for client companies. At the moment, we have one team of two auditors to do quarterly internal audits. We are working towards training most, if not all, of our employees to be additional auditors for two reasons: 1) to ensure that ALL functions are audited by someone who does not perform that task even as a backup, and 2) to improve employee "buy-in" to the audit process. We have always been fortunate to have a company culture that applaudes and encourages process improvement, but are new to formalizing it. It is felt that training and using the entire staff to audit will enhance that culture. It will also spread the auditing burden so that audits will not be delayed due to current auditors fighting tight deadlines for a project.

sheeplady

I assign two auditors to each audit but typically they both end up saying they don't have time to do it and I go and do it myself to keep to the schedule...

Well, this is exactly what happened in our situation last year, and we definitely do not want to fall into that rut again. :nope:

I think our auditors work better as a team at this point. Hopefully, they will gain experience and confidence enough over the next couple of years or so to go solo if necessary. :cfingers:

Thanks, everyone for sharing your stories. I love to see how other companies do things and sometimes get ideas from them for improving our own system. :cool:

In contrast to what others have said I usually try and encourage the more inexperienced auditor to take the lead as I feel they benefit more from this and the more experienced auditor is there to make sure everything is covered, provide support when needed and ask any questions he thinks is pertinent.

In contrast to what others have said I usually try and encourage the more inexperienced auditor to take the lead as I feel they benefit more from this and the more experienced auditor is there to make sure everything is covered, provide support when needed and ask any questions he thinks is pertinent.

That was part of the logic behind our decision to allow the auditors to work individually last year, but the results were not what we had hoped for and expected.

I have found teams work best for the following reasons:

Audits can be repeatitive enough, especially if you have performed too many in your own company. If you have sister facilities close by it is even better to switch auditors with them. So having a partner to bounce ideas off of is great.

Easy training for newbies, or even people that may never be comfortable auditing on their own, but have good insight into the processes.

The audit is more likely toget completed if two people have schedule it than if you assign it to one person to be completed 'sometime this year'.

When i had my auditors we started out doing a team approach audit. Once they were comfortable then they went solo. these were internal auditors.

We audit individually typically. I would prefer the team approach but as a TS certified company we are required to do many more audits than an ISO company and we are required to do all shifts, manufacturing process audits (control plan audits) and product audits. This gets much more involved. We have 20 auditors at 4 plants with a total of around 45 audits per year.

Great question, Gidget!:applause:

All these answers tell us what we already know about internal audits - they're difficult to plan and manage effectively. There are so many factors affecting the audit, including many mentioned here:- the auditor's experience, the type of audit (system wide or focused/deep dive), team dynamics, audit scope, frequency, logistics..........and more.

I wonder why training courses only focus on the auditor, rather than on how to manage an effective audit program..........??:notme:

Andy

I wonder why training courses only focus on the auditor, rather than on how to manage an effective audit program..........??:notme:

Andy

Hey, if you find one of those training courses that teach how to manage an effective audit program, please let us know! :agree1:

Got one in process at the moment..........:cool:

Andy

Please forgive my jumping into this thread late. Travel kept me away from my computer.

I'm currently working with a company that has the late audits problem. I'm going to propose that they adopt a team approach for the audit program as a whole.

Of course, there will have to be time invested in developing and maintaining the team, but I believe there will be payback in the form of more effective auditing and better overall support for the program throughout the company.

Please forgive my jumping into this thread late. Travel kept me away from my computer.

I'm currently working with a company that has the late audits problem. I'm going to propose that they adopt a team approach for the audit program as a whole.

Of course, there will have to be time invested in developing and maintaining the team, but I believe there will be payback in the form of more effective auditing and better overall support for the program throughout the company.

Glad to have your comments, CliffK.

I agree with you on the team approach for auditing. Our auditors work much better in teams as opposed to working alone, as I learned from last year's audits. Perhaps with much more experience they will gain the necessary confidence to venture out alone. Ours is not really a large facility to audit, but everyone wears more than one or two hats, which has caused quite a few challenges. :biglaugh:

Good luck in your endeavors with the audit program at your company! :agree1:

Oh, and welcome to the Cove!

Perhaps I should expand a bit.

What I'm thinking of is to treat the entire audit program as a team project. The team members would all be trained internal auditors.

The eventual objective is to put the team in charge of scheduling, assignments and the like.

As I thought about this company's problems with its internal audit program, it struck me how closely the requirements for a successful internal audit program match the requirements for a successful cross-functional team.

I am just starting an internal audit program here. In fact I just finished the training yesterday. All of my auditors are almost totally green. Only two had even been auditees involved in CE marking registration and surveillance audits.

So...we will be auditing in teams. For the first round of internal audits there will be teams of two auditors plus the lead auditor (me). I plan on letting the auditors do most of the work as I guide them.

After this year I plan on qualifying one of them as a lead auditor. From that point on I'll do teams of two, typically using the strategy of one to talk and ask, one to take notes.

I highly recomend that you look to use teams.
One thing that using teams promote is consistancy. As each auditor works with the others they get to see how it is viewed by other auditors in the group.
Nothing frustrates those being audited more than differnaces from auditor to auditor ( except findings that should at best be observations)

I agree with andygr, but I think that a big part of ensuring consistency is making sure all your auditors are trained the same way and any ambiguities are addressed during the training and always ensuring that they have a focal point for asking questions as we all know ISO9001/AS9100 does leave room for various interpretations on the proper implementation and use.

cheers,
al40