Hi All,

Anyone who has read my previous posts on this will know my situation, but just a brief intro for those who may not.

I am currently a projects manager working for a company that supply Automotive OEM and other industries. We are TS16949 and ISO14001.

I am currently warming up to become the next Quality manager, and I will assume top level control of our QMS. I have had discussions with my employer about the transition and basically the the consensus is that I start to work more closely with the current Quality Manager and begin to read up on every aspect of our QMS. However, it has also been agreed that before I can start to benefit from this closer working relationship, I should get some formal training so I may understand the requirements of the standard much better.

I did some research on courses here in the UK and though there are quite a few, I have found only two types that deal with TS16949:

1. Basic introductions to the standard and what it is trying to achieve. Maybe with a small part on ISO9001. An example of this kind of course is here: http://www.excel-world.co.uk/pages/iso16949/ex13.asp

2. A full on "Lead Auditor" course that covers everything including the auditor specifics that seem to me to be aimed at me becoming a lead auditor across multiple site organisations OR working for a certification body. An example of that is here http://www.excel-world.co.uk/pages/iso16949/ex18.asp

The quality manager has recommended the latter of the two, but my immediate manager has looked and said that although it looks comprehensive, it does look like I will be trained up to be able to be like "Our external auditor". It has whole days on the interviews involved etc.....

Is the latter over-kill for me? We are a small single site company with a small amount of manufacturing operations, on site, though we do work with manufacturing partners across the globe.

Does anyone know of a good medium between these two types of course? In the UK?

OR can anyone simply advise of the best approach for me and TS training? I am very familiar with certain aspects of TS, namely Product realisation and APQP. However I am not familiar with other parts and so feel I do need some formal training before getting my hands too dirty.

Disclaimer: I am in no way linked or associated to the company linked, these are just examples and can normally be found from many other training providers.

I'm over into QC because of reorganization within our company, but when in QA I found the full blown intro to ISO/TS auditing valuable. Note, even though the courses indicate auditing to TS, the last time I checked the only auditor courses that actually qualified one to be an external auditor to ISO/TS 16949 were controlled and offered by the IAOB and AIAG. Courses offered by other organizations only qualified one at most to be an external ISO 9001 auditor.

I went into the TS course with extensive ISO 9001 and QS auditing background, as well as being an ASQ CQA. I also ended up taking and passing the course that qualifies me to become an external ISO 9001 auditor. The TS courses still added value to my knowledge and experience.

Note with the recent change in qualifying suppliers quality systems, being able to do so thru 2nd party audits, having become qualified to be an external ISO9001 auditor could be a valuable benefit to your organization.

Best of luck with the new position.

1. Basic introductions to the standard and what it is trying to achieve. Maybe with a small part on ISO9001. An example of this kind of course is here: http://www.excel-world.co.uk/pages/iso16949/ex13.asp

2. A full on "Lead Auditor" course that covers everything including the auditor specifics that seem to me to be aimed at me becoming a lead auditor across multiple site organisations OR working for a certification body. An example of that is here http://www.excel-world.co.uk/pages/iso16949/ex18.asp

The quality manager has recommended the latter of the two, but my immediate manager has looked and said that although it looks comprehensive, it does look like I will be trained up to be able to be like "Our external auditor". It has whole days on the interviews involved etc.....

Is the latter over-kill for me? We are a small single site company with a small amount of manufacturing operations, on site, though we do work with manufacturing partners across the globe.

Does anyone know of a good medium between these two types of course? In the UK?

OR can anyone simply advise of the best approach for me and TS training? I am very familiar with certain aspects of TS, namely Product realisation and APQP. However I am not familiar with other parts and so feel I do need some formal training before getting my hands too dirty.

Your management have it in one - the LA class is not for the QM who has to implement a system. We have a 'Management rep's' class here in the USA (if you fancy a trip!).:notme:

The LA class was popular because people wanted to know what the third party auditors know, especially here in the USA. Yes, and it's accredited which carries some weight.:cool:

I'd recommend the overview since the chances are you'll get a the opportunity to talk implementation issues too. (I know the guys at Excel!!):notme:

Paradoxically, there's no 'approved' implementation class..........:rolleyes:

May be you could spend the difference in price by having some on site help?

Andy

The best advice I can give regarding the LA course is not to attend until you are ready for it. In my experience (having presented around 130 of them), too many people attend without some prior knowledge of ISO 9001 and auditing. The LA course is designed for people with some knowledge, who want to take it to the next level.

People who attend at the right time get much more from the course than those who attend too early.

If you have the opportunity, I would recommend you taking the Internal Auditor course, then take the Lead Auditor course. I think it would be beneficial to let it sink in for a while between courses, but not too long. Only you can decide that. Make sure they are both accredited by RABQSA to get the benefit of the recognition and acceptance.
I also took trhe Excel/SAI TS16949 Lead Auditor course. It is not a breeze through. A 5 day course with homework each night, write an essay, and then a final exam.

I have read your posts since you have been at the Cove, and think you will become a good quality manager.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. I will review my options. I think I will probably look at other courses before the lead auditor course!

Just something I did not mention was that I am probably also going to be doing a masters degree in Strategic Quality Management later this year, which I hope to take a lot from also. Of course this is not TS specific so the TS training will need to come first.

Thanks for the compliment ralph, I always try to be the best I can be in anything I do! I owe a lot to all the guys and gals who help in these very forums. :thanks:

Hi All,

Just to follow up on this, I took both an introduction to the standard and the TS internal auditor course and I have to say I found the 3 days very useful indeed. It gave me a very useful insight into the standard and how it should be audited as well as opening my eyes on how to interpret clauses in the standard.

If anyone out there has never had any formal training on TS and just relies on their own interpretation, I reccomend this course. I also reccomend that an organisation has at least one internal auditor who has been on a similar course, because it can highlight a great deal of improvement in:

1. Preparing for an Audit

2. Carrying out an audit.

3. Evaluating findings and presenting them to management.

We are rubbish at internal auditing, but before I went on this course, I did not realise just how bad!

We are rubbish at internal auditing, but before I went on this course, I did not realise just how bad!

Glad you got so much from your training! What you've described is a phenomenon know in the training industry as the "4 Phases of Adult Learning": -

1 - Unconsciously incompetent - (or "You don't know what you don't know")
2 - Consciously incompompetent
3 - Consciously competent
4 - Unconsciously competent

What's dangerous is the first phase and the fact that these aren't fixed or concrete - if things change so does our competence............

Glad you got so much from your training! What you've described is a phenomenon know in the training industry as the "4 Phases of Adult Learning": -

1 - Unconsciously incompetent - (or "You don't know what you don't know")
2 - Consciously incompompetent
3 - Consciously competent
4 - Unconsciously competent

What's dangerous is the first phase and the fact that these aren't fixed or concrete - if things change so does our competence............


...so, ummm, do I want to be a number 3, or a number 4...? Combining competence and unconscious into one term scares me a bit...:lmao: