can anyone make clear in my mind what is the difference between a controlled document and an uncontrolled document. when does a controlled document become uncontrolled?

Hello johnkwt, and welcome to the Cove :bigwave:

can anyone make clear in my mind what is the difference between a controlled document and an uncontrolled document. when does a controlled document become uncontrolled?
Ok, a controlled document is just that: Under control. It has to be approved, reviewed and updated as necessary. Changes and current issue shall be known. The correct version shall be made available to those who need it (See ISO9001:2000, clause 4.2.3 for the full list).

If you for instance copy a controlled document without registering it acc to the rules of your system, the copy will be an uncontrolled document (You cannot expect to recieve updates, right?).

/Claes

I usually apply the 'rule of thumb' that a document needs to be contolled under the condition that if someone could get the wrong version, and it would cause them a problem, control it. Be careful not to try and control documents unnecessarily, it can become a nightmare.

Also, be sure not to confuse documents with records, they need a different type of control.

ok thanks. controlled doc will be issued to users at point of use 4.2.3 d). users will take copies of these docs to use. i do not uderstand why copies will be uncontrolled as long as user is usingcorrect version?

i do not uderstand why copies will be uncontrolled as long as user is usingcorrect version?That is the problem: The users copy will, as you say be the correct version... when the copy is made... But for how long? What if the document is updated? The copy will remain the same, because it is not controlled, and the person using the copy will not be notified about the update.

Then, all of a sudden he will be doing his job acc. to incorrect or incomplete information... and be completely unaware of the fact, unless he compares his copy with a controlled document every time he uses it. That course of action often ends in tears: It has the potential to be very expensive

/Claes

it is clearer now. copies are treated as uncontrolled because users will be using out of date versions.

but how to stop this happening or is that impossible?

it is clearer now. copies are treated as uncontrolled because users will be using out of date versions.

but how to stop this happening or is that impossible?

I think you are not as clear as you thought.

Lets take for example a drawing for fabrication purpose in your plant. You will want to control it so that your fabricators are having the latest version of drawing to work on. If changes occur, then you will need to issue them with the latest revision and at the same time collect back the previous version. This ensures that all drawing at the shop are current. Number of copies of control drawings issued and to whom it is issued need to be recorded and tallied when you collect back the documents and at the same time issue new ones.

Lets say a certain part will be outsourced to outside fabricators and you want to get 4 parties to quote. You will issue them the latest drawing but Uncontrolled. The reason being there is no point or possibility to collect these drawings back. When the successful party enters into a contract with you to undertake the work for you, then you issue them the latest controlled drawing to work on. This is to ensure that the contractor is always using the latest version of drawing/document.

Hope to have clarified this item.

it is clear, but even if the fabricators are on site they can still copy, especially if soft copy given,which would be uncontrolled, so better to make it uncontrolled?

Anyone can copy a document, we aren't disagreeing with that. However, somewhere in your system there is an updated (i.e., controlled) document, right? And, as part of your document control process, are the protocols for ensuring that the document is available to the right people in the right spot at the right time.

Think of the control document as your master document. If we are using a drawing as the example, would your company allow different versions to circulate on the floor and in the system? No. There is one drawing that is updated, revisions recorded in the table and approvals received. The document is then circulated appropriately.

Some people are issued a controlled copy. This means that with the master drawing is a list of some sorts that says "The following people are to receive a copy of the revised drawing once it is approved" (or something to that effect).

Traditionally, there is a means by which a controlled copy is identified (for hard copy documents). My own company has taken the approach of a "non black ink stamp stating 'controlled copy'".

Ideally, only the electronic document is the controlled copy and all hard copies are uncontrolled. But this approach only works if the organization's culture recognizes that every time they wish to use the document, they need to go online to find it instead of rifling through the stack of paper on their desk to the copy they printed off last week.

it is clear, but even if the fabricators are on site they can still copy, especially if soft copy given,which would be uncontrolled, so better to make it uncontrolled?

The control drawings will be your 'contract drawings' issued to the contractor. If he or his workers chooses to use outdated drawings, they will have to pay for any mistakes if there are deviations from the original/contract drawings. That's why ISO mandate that there must be some way to control documents (drawings included). It is a good management practice.

p/s Your contractor will need to have his own system to control the drawings issued by you or you can insist on it if you for see problems.

Real simple, controlled documents are retrievable!

You can stamp 'em, sign 'em, even print 'em a different color, but if you don't know where they are and how to get them back there not controlled!

The Madfox
("Oh yeah, that print, it's around here somewhere, I just saw it yesterday.")