Hi all,

I have a question about the management review record. Recently, our MR refused to summarize and take management review minute of meeting. He said that the presentations ( from each section ) using during the review can be used as the review output / review record. However, the comment and recommendation from management team was not inclueded. He told me that the requirement was not mentioned about minute of meeting. As far as, the presentation is kept with the follow up activities, everything is ok.
Is this understanding correct? So confuse

Thanks in advance for reply.

Garfield_01

Having and reviewing materials for a management review are one thing; however, the standard asks us for more. ISO 9001: 5.6.1 calls out for records of management review.

Showing we are reviewing the system's results, including audit results and process performance metrics such as scrap rates is easy with minutes. Other methods might work, such as dated lists of reviewed items and specifically responsive management actions or initiatives, resources allocated for plans to change some of those metrics like scrap rates, and projects to improve audit results. See 5.6.3.

Management review references are also found in 8.5.1, Continual improvement.

If there is a staunch refusal to make meeting minutes I wonder if it is because Management does not want to open itself up to legal scrutiny. I guess I have a suspicious mind.

We use a form for Management Review that covers all things required by the standard and that is included with our minutes as our record. The minutes are for any discussion that is not covered on the form plus it covers all actions determined from the review. After all, action is the "output" of the review and without it, what is the point? We received kudos from our external auditors in both our preassessment and cert audits so it must be working.

Minutes....well, each of us probably has different ideas of what minutes are, there is a requirement, (Jennifer stated it) that we keep a record of the review. In my mind, that means that you have to indicate which of the inputs were covered, and record the outputs. i.e. decisions made, action items to be followed up on, corrective or preventive actions to be done, etc.

Got your points and thanks a lot for all replys. The story was the customer who performed the audit per TS req gave us the major N/C. The wrap up will be made this evening, and I don't think that suit for.

...Records from management reviews shall be maintained (see 4.4.4).Now read the whole of 5.6.1 General, 5.6.2 Review Input, and 5.6.3 Review Output. You SHALL have some kind of record of all of those items. For example, you SHALL RECORD that you reviewed the audit results since the last management review and you SHALL RECORD that the results were either acceptable or that you are doing something to make them acceptable.

You don't necessarily need MINUTES but you do need a RECORD. Try the attached Management Review Record. Fill in the data that you reviewed and be specific. For example, in Section 6 Status of Internal Audit Activity you would enter "Reviewed Internal Audits 2006-1 & 2006-2, covering the entire QMS. 5 Findings noted, see Corrective Actions 2006-1 through 2006-5. All CAs are closed.

During the actual review, assuming Management finds that Internal Audit Activity requires no further action, you simply record by hand, "Results acceptable". If further action is required (e.g., Closing Corrective Action 2006-5), you would fill in something like "See Item 1 in Section 14" (i.e. Improvement of effectiveness of the Quality Management System and its processes, by the way). In Section 14 you would record as Item 1 "Close Corrective Action 2006-5 by March 1st assigned to Garfield_01."

Garfeild_01:

How does your organiztion provide evidence of any decision or actions related to 5.6.3, a, b and c?

What was presented in the meeting probably only provides the data to support whatever decision are made. My guess is that the presentation material does not include decisions and actions as a result of the Management Review.

Regards,

Dirk

Icy Mountain:

Thanks a lot for the example. I'll try this to the MR and hope I won't explain him much detail.

Drik:

Your guess is correct. At least we fail Req.5.6.3 (a). So much of work to do before the coming survelliance audit! :(

I think the template provided by Icy Mountain is excellent and some good advice also given by others.

Just a general thought on MR agenda's, why do we often have a separate topic for 'recommendations for improvement'? Should this not be attached to all topics on the MR agenda?

Just a general thought on MR agenda's, why do we often have a separate topic for 'recommendations for improvement'? Should this not be attached to all topics on the MR agenda?The template I provided is meant to incorporate the ISO9004 guidelines. 5.6.3, Review Output, begins: "By extending management review beyond verification of the quality management system..."
Each topic on the MR agenda can produce a recommendation for improvement and they are listed by topic in my review output "minutes". However, an effective MR can and will produce Recommendations for Improvement that are beyond the scope of the QMS. We capture these RFIs in a separate section for extra visibility AND to set them apart from QMS improvements. For example, the last statement under 5.6.3 in ISO9004 is: "...information for strategic planning for future needs of the organization."

I will not put strategic planning recommendations in front of a 3rd party auditor the same way I would put a recommendation that we reduce the Cost of Poor Quality on Product X coming from Production Team Y. <ducks, expecting return fire>

What a coincidence, the company I work for also thinks that PowerPoint Presentations once a year with pareto charts covers as minutes for a management review meeting. Well today we will find out when we get audited. For months now, I have been trying to get them to understand that they need to have a meetings that shows continual improvement on problems identified by their charts and take some sort of minutes. Eye Candy and colored paper, what a waste!:lmao:

Well, some people won't believe the messenger. I guess they will find out if it matters when the audit comes around. Unless the auditor doesn't ask... :rolleyes:

Well the auditor asked, and yep, he nailed us on not having minutes that cover an input and output process to identify problems our charts are showing us. No Management Review minutes, and gave us a small warning for lack of top management involvement. Yikes:biglaugh: Well I guess we will just have to see what the top brass does now.:cfingers:

Well, there you have it.

As others have said, minutes aren't the only means to this end. However, whatever comes out of those reviews should show evidence of management's responding intentions based on the metrics.

Maybe people think this is harder than it is. There needn't be an on-the-spot project planning session. However, showing intention to allocate resources toward a specific issue can go a long way to show Management is engaged, which is the point.

The term "minutes" implies that Management Review is achomplished through a meeting. There is no requirement for MR to be a meeting, so no minutes can be required ...unless... something in your documentation states that minutes are maintained.

If you do not use a meeting format to meet the requirement, or if you choose not to maintain meeting minutes (which, imnsho is kinda silly), then what ever record you choose, must show that all of the requirements for management review have been met

I received a PM requesting examples of Supporting Data that I record to satisfy this requirement based on the Management Review Record template in this post. (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=183237&postcount=6) Unfortunately, my Executive Staff would have me executed if I just posted a bunch of screen shots of my supporting data for Management Review, as all this data tends to be rather sensitive and confidential. So, I just listed examples of what we use under each section in the attached document. Enjoy!

Has your "MR" read the ISO requirements? Just wondering.

Thanks Icy for examples. This have cleared up all misunderstandings.

Dear Garfield:

Thinking as auditor, if you prove that participant people in MR know and understand the:

 Decisions and actions taken (improvements) of process wish don’t reach the goals
 Responsible and dates
 Targets and verification previous to the next MR

Perhaps is OK.

Many people don’t like the minutes because means more time and works, but they can be very useful if you use it as a tool for the follow up, after and before next meeting.


Salvador.