During my ISO/TS training I had a discussion with the trainer (external consultant) concerning audit notes. I told him and our class that I never keep my notes and throw them out after the final report is published. After a lot of ooo's and no ahhh's as this could be a possible non-conformance for quality records. My reasoning was: 1. that my notes are transcribed into an audit report and archived with the checklist (not filled in) into our electronic documentation system, 2. during the time I have been auditing (8 yrs) an external registrar has never asked to see my audit notes and 3. my notes are illegible to anyone but myself anyway and useless to me after the final report has went out.
Is there an actual requirement that cites an auditor must keep audit notes or is it an interpretation?

Your input appreciated!

I don't know of any specific requirements to keep audit notes after your audit report is "officially" documented. Mine are about as legible as you mentioned. Sometimes I keep some, but mostly do not. Been through 4 TS audits, 2 customer audits, and 4 corporate audits, has not been an issue.

There isn't a specific requirement. However, I keep electronic versions of my notes (handwritten ones would be illegible) for future audit planning. Existing notes have been most helpful in understanding what's been covered and available opportunties--who can cover everything in a single audit? It also provides a means to record trends of improvements and background information for managers if they want it.

During my ISO/TS training I had a discussion with the trainer (external consultant) concerning audit notes. I told him and our class that I never keep my notes and throw them out after the final report is published. After a lot of ooo's and no ahhh's as this could be a possible non-conformance for quality records. My reasoning was: 1. that my notes are transcribed into an audit report and archived with the checklist (not filled in) into our electronic documentation system, 2. during the time I have been auditing (8 yrs) an external registrar has never asked to see my audit notes and 3. my notes are illegible to anyone but myself anyway and useless to me after the final report has went out.
Is there an actual requirement that cites an auditor must keep audit notes or is it an interpretation?

Your input appreciated!

I am not aware of a particular requirement, outside of the guidance in ISO 19011. However, I look for some depth to the audit records. If the notes you are referring to are scribbles on a scratch pad, they add no real value. If however, you are talking about names, areas in the shop, equipment, work celss...these are meaningful and would demonstrate that there was depth to your audit.

Notes can also help provide evidence of competency of the auditor, evidence of planning, evidence of "evidence", you know some of that other unimportant stuff that serves no purpose.

I think notes are helpful for future audit planning, so I agree with Randy. I usually keep some of my notes as a part of the final audit report -- the ones about the audit plan or about the verification of effectiveness checks (you just never know when the lead auditor might come back for more details than what you provided on the audit report). The way I do it, the notes should not be part of the audit records; just the final report. The notes are mine.

IMHO - Keep all notes. Always.

1. that my notes are transcribed into an audit report and archived with the checklist (not filled in) into our electronic documentation systemImo, that is akin to actually saving the notes. That is what I do as well, apart from the checklist, which I fill that in electronically too (I actually append it - questions as well as answers - with the report).

And wouldn't you know... My handwriting is abysmal too.

/Claes

The majority of internal audit reports and notes etc that I see these days are typed up and kept electronically. I have no problem with that in general but we all know that the typed up version is not quite the same as the handwritten version. It seems somehow 'sanitised' when they are typed and I often wonder what was left out and what was added in.

I think that legible (and mine too are not!) notes are quite good and I encourage people to include them with the audit record. If they are illegible, what's the point?

I don't explicitly keep my audit notes but my notes are in my notebooks and I always keep my notebooks when I finish them.

I really don't keep my notes either after the final report, only because the final report reflects the evidence used.

As for Randy's comment:

Notes can also help provide evidence of competency of the auditor, evidence of planning, evidence of "evidence", you know some of that other unimportant stuff that serves no purpose.

I see where he is coming from on this, but I think that the Final Report could show the evidence of competency... In my opinion.

I really don't keep my notes either after the final report, only because the final report reflects the evidence used.

As for Randy's comment:



I see where he is coming from on this, but I think that the Final Report could show the evidence of competency... In my opinion.


Nope! I can sit here and write a report on your system without ever seeing it. Notes help provide evidence that the audit was actually done and by reviewing them you can determine whether or not the auditor knew anything about auditing. A process based approach requires evidence that auditing followed the "flow" as opposed to clause by clause.

More often than not, nobody is going to sit around a fake a pile of notes, whereas an audit report just proves that someone knows how to wrte a report.

When I was a third party auditor, my notes were reviewed back at the office as part of the process to confirm or reject my recommendation regarding registration. I can understand, therefore, why the third party auditors have responded as they have to this post.

I'm now a first party auditor and keep some, but not all, of my notes. The decision is based on whether or not they will be of use in evaluating the response to audit findings. When the audit findings are resolved and closed out, the notes are usually binned.

I don't see a requirement in any of the quality or environmental standards that I use for retention of the notes so they stay only if they are of use to me. I've got adequate records of audits and auditor competence to demonstrate compliance with the standards' requirements without adding to my collection of waste paper.

Thanks to all for your informative posts. I have been working with the same 3rd party auditors for 8 years, I don't think they have a competence issue with me. I have decided to keep the last years worth of notes as well as any notes that help me understand some of the processes I audit less frequently. I have really limited space in my cubicle so I really have to pick and choose what I keep. Putting these into records retention costs $ that we are scrutinized on.
:thanx:

I keep all of my handwritten notes for a year and they are more than absymal. However, I do type them for the report. I try to do that within 8 hours after writing because even I sometimes can't decipher them; they are pretty much scribbled wherever. I keep them for reference during the following year's audit so I remember who I interviewed. I don't interview the same employees twice and I don't put names in my audit reports.

I keep all of my handwritten notes for a year and they are more than absymal. However, I do type them for the report. I try to do that within 8 hours after writing because even I sometimes can't decipher them; they are pretty much scribbled wherever. I keep them for reference during the following year's audit so I remember who I interviewed. I don't interview the same employees twice and I don't put names in my audit reports.

I basically do the same. I type up a detailed page listing all the individual items covered, areas, and people contacted and the audoit results usually one page. Then I also type up a cover audit report that states the overview and scope plus anything to be highlighted. As previously stated, my hand written notes are sometimes kept especially if there are findings, or specific verifications are required. Otherwise I can't read my personal short hand either after a few days.

I don't keep the notes either, from any of the auditors or mine. As soon as the audit is complete, one of us transcribes the entire note set (of all auditors) into our electronic record keeper, verbatim. The system pulls out an audit report from the electronic inputs of the auditors afterwards, which gives the nitty gritty of the audit.

I had a thread on this last year, because a new auditor came in and tried to make me feel shameful and dirty for tossing away the handwritten stuff. I asked for the "shall". I'm still tossing the handwritten stuff. Now, if we did NOT record the auditor notes, in their entirety, into the electronic format, then I'd be asking for trouble.

I don't keep the notes either, from any of the auditors or mine. As soon as the audit is complete, one of us transcribes the entire note set (of all auditors) into our electronic record keeper, verbatim. The system pulls out an audit report from the electronic inputs of the auditors afterwards, which gives the nitty gritty of the audit.

I had a thread on this last year, because a new auditor came in and tried to make me feel shameful and dirty for tossing away the handwritten stuff. I asked for the "shall". I'm still tossing the handwritten stuff. Now, if we did NOT record the auditor notes, in their entirety, into the electronic format, then I'd be asking for trouble.


What you describe can be fine, but why bother? Keep the handwritten notes in their handwritten form, they support the audit. Scan them if you prefer. But the handwritten notes provide little useful information to the customers of the audit, they just backup and support the findings. So, transcribing those notes probably does not add any further value, it just consumes resources. Wouldn't it be more value added for the auditors to take a half-hour to write 5 paragraphs of their impressions and conclusions of the effectiveness of the processes they reviewed? What was great, was what weak, what kinds of findings and recommendations would they make? I would focus on those things, I guess. They provide significant insight to the managers.

I always keep my audit notes for above one year in order that we can prove to auditor 8.2.1 in external audit.

I always keep my audit notes for above one year in order that we can prove to auditor 8.2.1 in external audit.

That's good, but bear in mind, the Big 3 OE req. is audit records are to be kept for 3 years.

These notes would be part of the audit records. If you supply a customer which specifies the record retention length, you need to follow that. Otherwise, it is left up to you.

It's worth thinking about how the audit notes can help the next auditor avoid going over the same ground as was covered before. If you have an effective auditor evaluation process (per ISO 19011), the notes can also be helpful to 'see' what the auditor did in conducting the audit. This might identify sampling, objectivity etc. issues for action by the auditor. Just a thought.........:rolleyes:

Andy

I have always looked at audit notes as my personal insurance - What I looked at, who I spoke with and when (including the time), and related questions, etc. Back in the mid 1990's I bought an Apple Newton because I could save my notes to my Mac and for the most part character recognition would 'transcribe' my notes to a text file but the bottom line was I can (still) write my notes on my Newton and copy them to picture and text files on my Mac.

These days I just scan my paper notes. That's why, in my earlier post, I said I save all notes. Let's face it - If you're out auditing, rather than at a conference room desk, you're writing on paper. The technology is there, yet auditors write on paper.

My :2cents: Save the original auditor notes or scan them. If you want to transcribe them to text, fine - That's just a time issue. Personally, however, I want the handwriting scanned especially if it's an external auditor. You never know when a court case will hit where scanned auditor notes will be significant (akin to finger prints) when the blaming begins.

EVIDENCE.... :notme: