If a control plan shows a receiving inspection of product from one out-sourced supplier before shipping the product to another out-sourced supplier, what compliance issues are there when purchasing goes and drop ships from the one supplier to the other?

Thanks,
Doug

How does your organization confirm that the first outsource supplier did their job?

The receiving inspection control point (listed on the control plan) is not a control point when the purchasisng dept. drop shipped from one outsource supplier to the other.

I can't find my copy of the 4th edition of PPAP so I cannot look up section 3.1. I have an external document control problem today.

Regards,

Dirk

If a control plan shows a receiving inspection of product from one out-sourced supplier before shipping the product to another out-sourced supplier, what compliance issues are there when purchasing goes and drop ships from the one supplier to the other?

Thanks,
Doug

I'm confused. Section 3.1 of the 4th Edition PPAP manual is about customer notification and submission requirements, and I'm not sure how your question relates to it, or to PPAP in general. I don't think that outside operations belong in a control plan, because I believe that control plans should include only those processes which you actually control directly. We should be able to see the routing of material in your process flow diagram, and the possibilities for bad things to happen should be addressed in the PFMEA, but that doesn't mean that you also have to address them in your control plan. For PPAP purposes, you can include a copies of sub-tier documentation (your suppliers' control plans) but you shouldn't do that unless your customer actually wants to see them.

How does your organization confirm that the first outsource supplier did their job?

The receiving inspection control point (listed on the control plan) is not a control point when the purchasisng dept. drop shipped from one outsource supplier to the other.

I can't find my copy of the 4th edition of PPAP so I cannot look up section 3.1. I have an external document control problem today.

Regards,

Dirk

We receive a certificate of conformance from the outsourced suppliers. The case I have in mind for this thread is where we send product out for brazing and then we send the brazed product out for plating.

Thanks,
Doug

I'm confused. Section 3.1 of the 4th Edition PPAP manual is about customer notification and submission requirements, and I'm not sure how your question relates to it, or to PPAP in general. I don't think that outside operations belong in a control plan, because I believe that control plans should include only those processes which you actually control directly. We should be able to see the routing of material in your process flow diagram, and the possibilities for bad things to happen should be addressed in the PFMEA, but that doesn't mean that you also have to address them in your control plan. For PPAP purposes, you can include a copies of sub-tier documentation (your suppliers' control plans) but you shouldn't do that unless your customer actually wants to see them.

Sorry for the confusion, I was naturally thinking that I had a compliance issue if I had an inspection point on the control plan and it was not carried out due to the drop shipment.

As for outsourced activity not being on the control plan, I will have to do more investigation into that.

Thanks,
Doug

Sorry for the confusion, I was naturally thinking that I had a compliance issue if I had an inspection point on the control plan and it was not carried out due to the drop shipment.

As for outsourced activity not being on the control plan, I will have to do more investigation into that.

Thanks,
Doug

Does the material normally come back to you after brazing, and a purchasing cowboy (or girl) decided to have the brazing contact send it to the plater instead? If that's the case, and your PFD and control plan show the non-cowboy process flow, then you're correct--it is a problem. You can solve it by following my earlier advice and not including processes you don't control in your control plan, or you can put a branch on your PFD that allows for either method, and also update the PFMEA and control plan accordingly.

Jim:

I question the line of thinking that control points outside of the organization don't have to be on control plans. If organizations are still responsible for outsourced process, and the organization shall ensure control over outsourced processes, then I would think that the controls over the outsourced process could or even should go on the control plan.

I hope there is some direct control over the outsourced processes especially if one pays for the outsourced processing or has a contract.

Just wondering on this. I have no reference points to say one approach is better or worse, right or wrong.

Doug: If the control plan states that the control is the receipt of the C of C, then I don't think there is any problem with the drop ship.

Regards,

Dirk

Jim:

I question the line of thinking that control points outside of the organization don't have to be on control plans. If organizations are still responsible for outsourced process, and the organization shall ensure control over outsourced processes, then I would think that the controls over the outsourced process could or even should go on the control plan.

I hope there is some direct control over the outsourced processes especially if one pays for the outsourced processing or has a contract.

Just wondering on this. I have no reference points to say one approach is better or worse, right or wrong.

Doug: If the control plan states that the control is the receipt of the C of C, then I don't think there is any problem with the drop ship.

Regards,

Dirk

My rationale on the subject: PPAP and related APQP requirements are supposed to be "flowed down" to sub-tier suppliers. This means that they are supposed to develop their own APQP processes, PFMEAs, flow diagrams and control plans. My control plan should be about what I can directly control in my processes. If my customer is interested in sub-tier controls, I can include a copies of their control plans in PPAP submissions. Which would you rather have as a customer--direct evidence, or hearsay?

Does the material normally come back to you after brazing, and a purchasing cowboy (or girl) decided to have the brazing contact send it to the plater instead? If that's the case, and your PFD and control plan show the non-cowboy process flow, then you're correct--it is a problem. You can solve it by following my earlier advice and not including processes you don't control in your control plan, or you can put a branch on your PFD that allows for either method, and also update the PFMEA and control plan accordingly.

Yea, you got it.

Thanks,
Doug

Jim:

I question the line of thinking that control points outside of the organization don't have to be on control plans. If organizations are still responsible for outsourced process, and the organization shall ensure control over outsourced processes, then I would think that the controls over the outsourced process could or even should go on the control plan.

I hope there is some direct control over the outsourced processes especially if one pays for the outsourced processing or has a contract.

Just wondering on this. I have no reference points to say one approach is better or worse, right or wrong.

Doug: If the control plan states that the control is the receipt of the C of C, then I don't think there is any problem with the drop ship.

Regards,

Dirk

The CoC is the Control Method for the Brazing Operation (Outsourced) but the next step is the receiving verification at our place. It is to be a visual for damage or defective product at a given sampling.

I tend to agree with the outsourced activity being on the control plan, but I would not over-ride Jim's position.

Thanks,
Doug