Can an OEM like Honda, GM, Ford can get TS 16949:2002 certification? If yes then who will be consider as their customer?

Yes!
As always, the people that buy their products.

Can an OEM like Honda, GM, Ford can get TS 16949:2002 certification? If yes then who will be consider as their customer?Remember: A MANUFACTURING site can get certified to TS. So, if GM has an engine assembly plant that makes engines for DCX, that GM site could be TS certified. It does not mean that GM (as a whole) is TS certified.

When TS first came out, I had the impression that OEM assembly plants were not allowed to be certified. However, the "Rules" document has some information in it that clearly implies that they can:
Note 2 : For OEM vehicle assembly, ”contract review” and the “contract” are represented by the internally documented marketing requirements for vehicle brand, mix and volumes.
If OEM assembly plants couldn't be certified, then I don't think they'd include this contingency.

I know that some of the DCX, GM and Ford manufacturing plants for sub-assemblies like engines, axles, body steel, etc. are QS or TS registered but I couldn't tell you which ones. I'm not sure about the Final Assembly plants.

As for Honda, I've toured or worked in all of their Ohio plants except for the transmission plant. I can tell you from personal experience that 3rd party registration would be nothing but a resource waste. These plants are all run around Deming principles that focus on ACTUAL quality. The typical records chasing registrar's auditor would go nuts at the lack of paperwork. Metrics are really big, as are mistake-proofing.

Yes, of course. Any company can apply ts16949 certification if necessary.

Yes, of course. Any company can apply ts16949 certification if necessary.That is incorrect. Only eligible plants can attain TS certification.

FYI - The Hyundai assembly plant in Montgomery, Al just received its ISO/TS 16949 certificate. I believe that the MB plant in Tuscaloosa is also TS registered. The Hyundai plant has all functions, except car design, onsite, so it was a little easier.

Their customers are the car buyers. Why are you asking the question?:confused:

Andy

FYI - The Hyundai assembly plant in Montgomery, Al just received its ISO/TS 16949 certificate.Indeed. They have a press release about it. (http://www.hyundaiusa.com/abouthyundai/news/2007_02_21/2007_02_21.aspx)

DNV has certified numerous GM plants to ISO 9001 and a smaller number to TS-16949, including a vehicle assembly plant in Shangai.

FYI - The Hyundai assembly plant in Montgomery, Al just received its ISO/TS 16949 certificate. I believe that the MB plant in Tuscaloosa is also TS registered. The Hyundai plant has all functions, except car design, onsite, so it was a little easier.

Their customers are the car buyers. Why are you asking the question?:confused:

Andy


The customers aren't the car buyers, the manufacturer's direct customers are the dealerships. The people that buy the cars don't buy them from the manufacturer, they buy them from the dealer.

Certain conditions like warranties are through the manufacturing Corporation and not the manufacturing facililty.

Ford Malaysia has been certifieid to ISO/TS 16949 few years ago and DCX Malaysia is planning to go for it with an OEM assembly plant in Pahang, Malaysia.... Just wondering how DCX is going to do it ??

Can an OEM like Honda, GM, Ford can get TS 16949:2002 certification? If yes then who will be consider as their customer?

The VCA has certified a whole bunch of OEMs to TS.

When I was working at Jaguar they made the transition from QS to ISO TS. They also have 14k. There are a whole range of others - I will see if I can get a list.

Hi guys;
we are having interseting debate, how about a truck manufacturing facility that assembles trucks (1.5T to 4T) using chinese technology.but the problem is chinese are not providing technology e.g. math data., drawings.instead they only provide the reference sample parts and the company has to reverse engineer it to develop those parts locally.This plant is in pakistan.and almost 70% parts are developed locally(without any drawing,CAD, MATH data)..now this facilty wants TS 16949..I am doing some research on this now adays..i need comments feedback from all of you..Thanks

When we went through our TS registration audit we needed to show evidence that a customer was requiring TS certification of our company. Even the weak encourage TS certification was not enough it had to be a customer specific requirement (CSR). Who requires GM to be TS certified when they are assembling a car?

The Ford plants I have been to could not pass a TS audit. They have very strict and good supplier CSR's but they themselves did not follow most of the basics. I have not been to Honda or GM.

Hi guys;
we are having interseting debate, how about a truck manufacturing facility that assembles trucks (1.5T to 4T) using chinese technology.but the problem is chinese are not providing technology e.g. math data., drawings.instead they only provide the reference sample parts and the company has to reverse engineer it to develop those parts locally.This plant is in pakistan.and almost 70% parts are developed locally(without any drawing,CAD, MATH data)..now this facilty wants TS 16949..I am doing some research on this now adays..i need comments feedback from all of you..Thanks

Hi, Shamhaider. You probably want to start another thread for this one! Otherwise it will get lost in all the other information about OEM certification.

Following on from my earlier post the following is some old data I have retrieved. It is from the early days of TS2 do I am sure the list is a lot longer.

Jaguar Cars Limited Castle Bromwich Assembly Plant ISO/TS 16949:2002
Jaguar Cars Limited Halewood Stamping & Asembly ISO/TS 16949:2002
Jaguar Cars Limited Whitley Engineering Centre ISO/TS 16949:2002
Volkswagen A.G. VOLKSWAGEN Autoeuropa Quinta da ISO/TS 16949:2002
Land Rover Group Limited Solihull ISO/TS 16949:2002
Land Rover Group Limited Oxford Plant ISO/TS 16949:2002

All the Ford plants in the US are down as ISO 9001.2000.

From the IATF FAQ's on who can be registered to TS:

"This Technical Specification is applicable to sites of the organization where production and/or service parts specified by the customer are manufactured."

Who is the customer that is specifying the production or service parts for the auto OEM? It could be the dealer.

The above is not a leading question. I have no idea what the answer is.

Thank you,

Dirk

Customers of the Tier I's <deleted - thanks to Mr. Paul Simpson> OEM's are those who pays them the $: the dealerships!

...I guess that the car-buyers may also be considered by Tier I 's as a sort of a group of customers of the dealerships...:confused:

:topic:
I recall a fleet officer at my former job.
The man has been given the right to actually choose a model to buy (eventually: in a specified price range).
When many elderly ppl from the stuff wanted Renault Megans or Citroen's Xara :bonk: (for comfortable seats :blowup: );
the youngsters were backing the concept of Mazda Lantis (Protege) :agree1: as an over-all better-looking, reportedly reliable and relatively confortable car:
the Man :horse: has bought the nightmare of Mitsubishi Lancers for easiness of changing of the water pump!
He himself talked freely about the rational behind the decision (the man was to change the pumps with a little help of the kibbutz's technicians every 100,000 km :lmao: !: )))))
The moral of the story is:
Know Your Customer!
:singtome:

Customers of the Tier I's are those who pays them the $: the dealerships!

...I guess that the car-buyers may also be considered by Tier I 's as a sort of a group of customers of the dealerships...:confused:


The Tier 1 is the direct supply chain to the OEM (and Tier 2 are their suppliers, ....). The OEM's customers (among others) are the franchise dealerships.

In terms of application. ISO TS can apply anywhere in the supply chain. I know one Jaguar site listed supplies bodyshells and painting services to other plants (and is therefore a Tier 1).

I believe some OEMs are obtaining certification to TS to show that it is not a case of "do as I say, not as I do!"

Can the dealership be treated as customers..How about the endusers..If we take dealers as customers, then how will an oraganization react to the customer specific requirements..since delaer are sort of partners in the business..

Can the dealership be treated as customers..How about the endusers..If we take dealers as customers, then how will an oraganization react to the customer specific requirements..since delaer are sort of partners in the business..

You are right to question this. Dealerships are what is termed as intermediaries in marketing. They are agents. They help to serve and sell and channel all customer complaints/feedback back to the manufacturer. The end user/purchaser is still the customer.

The current trend is not to appoint exclusive agents but joint venture types so that manufacturers have better control over customer service. Apparently, dealers had not been providing adequate customer feedback. The manufacturer would like to get closer to the customer as they put it.

I am not sure if they do the same in their home country but that's what most do over here.

Actually TS requires one to have some customer in the automotive supply chain who demands a TS certification. The certificates also come with a list of customers as an appendix, whose requirements are being met and have been audited.

For some strange reason, some OEMs got their subassembly plants certified to TS. Still acceptable. But next they wanted the assembly lines to be certified and the CBs were too happy to oblige. The oversight body has chosen to look the other way. Now a precedent has been set. Many are quoted here. One can soon expect these to be officially reguralised by modifying the standard and / or the rules.

We could soon expect a poll on the cove regarding a rebellion against TS or whatever its called then.

Cheers.:drunk:

But next they wanted the assembly lines to be certified and the CBs were too happy to oblige. The oversight body has chosen to look the other way. Now a precedent has been set. Do you realize that some assembly plants actually assemble cars for another OEM? In other words, a GM assembly plant might assemble vehicles other than GM's?
Can you explain your strong objection to an assembly plant being TS certified?

Do you realize that some assembly plants actually assemble cars for another OEM? In other words, a GM assembly plant might assemble vehicles other than GM's?

Agreed. apart from home plants, most assembly plants overseas and especially in smaller countries where the volume is smaller are contract assemblers. These include the two plants in Malaysia mentioned in post #11. Sometimes, the manufacturer may have some direct or indirect shareholding in it. The assembly plant that assembles Mercedes in Malaysia is not owned by DCX but a DCX subsidiary had some investment in it - and they assembled other brands also (economy of scale).

Do you realize that some assembly plants actually assemble cars for another OEM? In other words, a GM assembly plant might assemble vehicles other than GM's?
Can you explain your strong objection to an assembly plant being TS certified?

Absolutely no objection so long as the certificate (or annexure) states who are the customers that have demanded the certification and whose requirements have been audited as met.

I do know some plants that do not do any subcontracting but are still certified.

We have been told the following but I still can't find acutal proof of the following:

"Actually TS requires one to have some customer in the automotive supply chain who demands a TS certification."

Sometimes I hear this described as a "subscribing" customer.

Regards,

Dirk

We have been told the following but I still can't find acutal proof of the following:

"Actually TS requires one to have some customer in the automotive supply chain who demands a TS certification."

Sometimes I hear this described as a "subscribing" customer.

Regards,

Dirk

ISO/TS 16949:2002

1.1 This TS in conjunction with ISO 9001:2000 defines the QMS requirements for design .. of automotive related products.

This TS is applicable ... where customer specified parts .. are manufactured.

This TS can be applied throughout the automotive supply chain.

Read together with

Rules for achieving IATF recognition:

1.5 The scope of certification shall include all products suplied to customers subscribing to the certification to ISO/TS

2.9 The audit plan .. shall include all requirements of the organisation's QMS implemented to meet automotive customer needs of those customers recognising ISO/TS even when these requirements go beyond ISO/TS.

5 Certificate content
h. List on a separate appendix any customer specific requirements used in the audit. - this normally gets abbreviated to include only the names of the customers (indicating their 'standard' requirements).

I would agree 'demands' is probably a wrong word to use here. 'Recognises' would be a better word. It is just a way of putting that one needs to be a part of the automotive supply chain. I may be a tier IV automotive supplier with none of my tier III customers certified to (hence demanding) TS. I am still open to go in for TS and meet the end customer requirements, hence become a 'customer approved source' for my direct customers.

My next questions are:

Are dealers subscribing customers to the OEM? By "OEM", I mean the last point in production - where the car rolls off the assembly line.

Do the dealers "specify parts" to be manufactured?

I say the answer to both is for sure "No." When was the last time a dealer told a car manufacture what type of car to make?

How many dealers are TS certified?

Thank you,

Dirk

How many dealers are TS certified?For sure none, since they are not manufacturing plants.

My next questions are:

Are dealers subscribing customers to the OEM? By "OEM", I mean the last point in production - where the car rolls off the assembly line.

Do the dealers "specify parts" to be manufactured?

I say the answer to both is for sure "No." When was the last time a dealer told a car manufacture what type of car to make?

How many dealers are TS certified?

Thank you,

Dirk

I would also think 'No'. Unless the definition of a 'part' includes an 'on the road' assembled car. lets both do some checking.

Their customers are the car buyers.Andy
The customers aren't the car buyers, the manufacturer's direct customers are the dealerships. The people that buy the cars don't buy them from the manufacturer, they buy them from the dealer.I love it when I have the footing to argue with Randy!;) I'm not 100% on the Big 3 but I know that the Honda assembly plants' customer is not the end user OR the dealers but American Honda Motor Company, Inc., sort of the parent like. AHMC buys the cars from Honda of America Manufacturing, Inc. and sells them to the dealers.
Who requires GM to be TS certified when they are assembling a car?GM. The parent company and the final assembly, engine or transmission manufacturing supplier are not necessarily the same thing.
Who is the customer that is specifying the production or service parts for the auto OEM? It could be the dealer.Or it could be the OEM. It does not say anywhere in the TS, guidance or rules that any of this has to make sense.
The Tier 1 is the direct supply chain to the OEM (and Tier 2 are their suppliers, ....). The OEM's customers (among others) are the franchise dealerships.
In terms of application. ISO TS can apply anywhere in the supply chain. I know one Jaguar site listed supplies bodyshells and painting services to other plants (and is therefore a Tier 1).
I believe some OEMs are obtaining certification to TS to show that it is not a case of "do as I say, not as I do!"Now we're getting somewhere. Leave it to Paul to make some sense out of this mess!
You are right to question this. Dealerships are what is termed as intermediaries in marketing. They are agents. They help to serve and sell and channel all customer complaints/feedback back to the manufacturer. The end user/purchaser is still the customer.DCX grades their dealers based on some kind of customer feedback and the ones that make the grade get that "5 Star Rating". I think that this fell apart due to a lack of dealers seeing anything like coherence from the OEM. Honda and Toyota have strict standards on how dealerships look and operate. Auditing and/or controlling your customer, now there's a novel approach (goes off to make list of customers that NEED to be audited and or controlled).
For some strange reason, some OEMs got their subassembly plants certified to TS. Still acceptable. But next they wanted the assembly lines to be certified and the CBs were too happy to oblige. The oversight body has chosen to look the other way.The reason is not strange. To quote Grandmaster Flash from "The Message": "It's all about money, ain't a d@#$ thing funny, you got to have a con, in this land of milk and honey.
The assembly plant that assembles Mercedes in Malaysia is not owned by DCX but a DCX subsidiary had some investment in it - and they assembled other brands also (economy of scale).Check it out. The supplier becomes the OEM. Magna assembles cars for DCX and is looking to buy the Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge/Jeep portion. I read that Magna has put an enormous amount of due diligence into this and that the price tag is around $5B (a far cry from the $35B soaking that DaimlerBenz took).
We have been told the following but I still can't find acutal proof of the following: "Actually TS requires one to have some customer in the automotive supply chain who demands a TS certification."Good luck in your quest for "proof".
Are dealers subscribing customers to the OEM? By "OEM", I mean the last point in production - where the car rolls off the assembly line.
Do the dealers "specify parts" to be manufactured?
When was the last time a dealer told a car manufacture what type of car to make?
How many dealers are TS certified?
In answer to your multiple questions:
No,
No,
After Ford made the Edsel, and,
Zero, and I doubt if you will find any dumb enough to buy pay for an ISO9001 cert, either.