Hi, folks. I would like to get some input on this change before I go screeching to our external auditor.

Does changing the 8.2.1 requirement from "measurements" to "indicators" of customer satisfaction allow us to toss the (useless, for us anyway) surveys and go back to using our Sales Managers' call reports as the indicator of customer satisfaction?

Please say its so....

Hi, folks. I would like to get some input on this change before I go screeching to our external auditor.

Does changing the 8.2.1 requirement from "measurements" to "indicators" of customer satisfaction allow us to toss the (useless, for us anyway) surveys and go back to using our Sales Managers' call reports as the indicator of customer satisfaction?

Please say its so....
Here's what 8.2.1 says:
As one of the measurements of the performance of the quality management system, the organization shall monitor information relating to the customer perception as to whether the organization has met customer requirements. The methods for obtaining and using this information shall be determined.If I understand your question correctly, you don't need to change "measurements" to "indicators," because indicators are a type of measurement. You would use indicators (such as call reports) to measure "...the performance of the quality system..." with regard to customer perceptions.

The theory here is that you need to measure something, but you need to know which is the boundary condition, so the best way is to define "indicators" (you can think of these as limit values).

The change in 8.2.1 is to correct the wording on this concept. The measurement alone has no meaning if you doesn´t know if it´s "good" or "bad". You just know this if you have an indicator or limit. So you need indicators of customers satisfaction. You apply the indicators to the measurements you do and know if your costumer is satisfied or not.

So, in my opinion there´s no change in the concept and in the clause, just in the words.

PS: this is not a clear answer to your question because i don´t know if you can measure your costumer satisfaction by surveys or Sales Managers' call reports. But in my opinion, you can´t measure a costumer satisfaction if you know how much your sales is doing (if i understand correctly what you mean as call reports).

Hi, folks. I would like to get some input on this change before I go screeching to our external auditor.

Does changing the 8.2.1 requirement from "measurements" to "indicators" of customer satisfaction allow us to toss the (useless, for us anyway) surveys and go back to using our Sales Managers' call reports as the indicator of customer satisfaction?

Please say its so....

Craig

Speaking to customers will give you far better feedback than a "survey", which can depend on the questions you ask, how you ask them, who you ask, how soon after the sale, ...

I don't think the real issue is the measurement, or indicator, that you use as much as what do you do with the information. If call reports get filed with no action taken on them, they will be as useless as a survey with no action taken.

The real indication that you are effectively complying with the standard is that you:

1) determine a method for obtaining information on the customer's perception on whether you are meeting their requirements

2) use this information to drive corrective action and/or continual improvement.

Call reports may be an acceptable means of doing this, providing the information contained in the reports provides actionable information on the customers perception, AND that you are monitoring and acting on this information as appropriate.

The first sentence of 8.2.1 is what is confusing to me. I don't think you have to measure customer perception. I think we are required to monitor it.

The result of a measurement is a discrete value. 8.2.1 requires monitoring as one of the measurements of qms performance. Measuring and monitoring are not the same thing, I thought.

From ISO 10012, Measurement management systems — Requirements for measurement processes and measuring equipment

"In this International Standard, the term “measurement process” applies to physical measurement activities (e.g. in design, test, production, inspection)."

Montior customer perception Vs. Measure customer satisfaction.

From ISO 9000:2005:

3.1.4
customer satisfaction
customer's perception of the degree to which the customer's requirements (3.1.2) have been fulfilled

NOTE 1 Customer complaints are a common indicator of low customer satisfaction but their absence does not necessarily imply
high customer satisfaction.

NOTE 2 Even when customer requirements have been agreed with the customer and fulfilled, this does not necessarily ensure
high customer satisfaction.

Regards,

Dirk