Everyone,

As my background is strictly manufacturing, I have having a hard time explaining that a "service" can have a nonconforming state. I am also having a hard time incorporating this thought process into our "product" nonconforming procedure.

Can anyone give me any ideas on how a "service" nonconformance can be documented? To add insult to injury, our largest client is 98% of our service nonconformances. Unfortunately, they have implemented a system that removes our ability to log any service "exceptions" into our system (we were able to prior to this new system). Without duplicating work, we don't have access to this data. This client is governmental, they don't like sharing. Am I stuck duplicating data so I can show control of "service" nonconformances?

:mg:

John

As my background is strictly manufacturing, I have having a hard time explaining that a "service" can have a nonconforming state. You make a hotel reservation for a non-smoking room. As you check in at the hotel, they only have smoking rooms available. You go to a fancy restaurant and the service is terrible. Your registrar sends you an auditor with an IQ slightly higher than an amoeba's IQ, besides heavy body odor. Secretly, you wish they had sent the amoeba, instead....All of these are examples of non-conforming products services.Can anyone give me any ideas on how a "service" nonconformance can be documented? If you let us know what kind of services the organization you work for provides, people can offer examples that are "closer to home".

I think Sidney has hit upon several excellent real-life examples, and within the witty examples, shows the challenges facing the service industry.

If quality is conformance to requirements, then you should give some thought to your requirements. With service, it gets a little more dicey, in that there is a subjective element of human interaction that may comprise your definition of quality. For example, while the temperature, taste, etc. of the steak would be to the fancy of any steak lover, The waiter was rude. how does one assess that nonconformance (if it is a nonconformance)? will that customer perceive the quality as poor or great?

I guess another element is service recovery. Is nonconformance those customers who have an unacceptable experience, but will not return, or are you only interested in those that will return?

If I am a waiter that has done a top-notch job, but the kitchen (totally out of my control) burns the customer's hamburger. But... instead of giving them a free meal, the waiter only offers to fix a new one. The customer is unhappy. Does the customer self-report the nonconformance, and how accurate is the information? Does the waiter, or the kitchen manager?

I am highly interested in this nonconformance being levied against you by this big customer, and exactly how they come about determining what is conforming and non-conforming. Do they log these to get some service recovery such as compensation, discounts, extra services, etc.?

Maybe you might consider basing your service on an easier metric such as lead-time, lowest employee turnover, longest years of service, largest market share, etc.

Just some thoughts.

Everyone,

As my background is strictly manufacturing, I have having a hard time explaining that a "service" can have a nonconforming state. I am also having a hard time incorporating this thought process into our "product" nonconforming procedure.

Can anyone give me any ideas on how a "service" nonconformance can be documented? To add insult to injury, our largest client is 98% of our service nonconformances. Unfortunately, they have implemented a system that removes our ability to log any service "exceptions" into our system (we were able to prior to this new system). Without duplicating work, we don't have access to this data. This client is governmental, they don't like sharing. Am I stuck duplicating data so I can show control of "service" nonconformances?

:mg:

John


Identify the requirement.
Identify the failure to comply with the requirement.
Write it down.It's really no different from a nonconforming condition in a palpable product. If there is a clear requirement, it shouldn't be difficult to identify occasions when the requirement isn't met. For example, if you use a messenger service, and the requirement is that stuff will be delivered undamaged, within x hours, and your customer informs you that a package was delivered two hours late, smashed to bits, then you know the requirements weren't met.

If you're having trouble documenting any kind of nonconforming condition, it most likely means that the requirements aren't clear.

I have grasped the concept. However, our client is the reason for the non-conformance 80% of time (well, they were until they took access to the data away). Does one really write disposition "Thanks for the cash to revisit the location due to your ineptness"?

We install our customers products at retail locations. However, the majority of our issues are due to our client not telling us enough information or telling us wrong information (i.e. telling us a new store is open - we get there - barely done construction, retail location hasn't approved retail display, retail display won't fit <it is their responsibility to ensure product fits>, etc.). I feel that I would basically be documenting that our client's sales force is inept. It would basically be backup data should they ever try to blame us for poor delivery performance. In case you are wondering, each and every case is documented to them - unfortunately we don't have access to the complied data. To gain access to the data, we would have to enter the data a 2nd time. I would love to smack the client around on this, but, they are a major client and government (yes, sort of like convincing your wife/gf that football/hockey/baseball/NASCAR can be fun to watch!). In other words, efforts are better spent elsewhere. Oh ya, did I mention that we get paid again to address the nonconformance?

I guess the hardest thing I am trying to get my head around is to ensure I address all aspects of the ISO standard I will have to duplicate something I am already doing AND try to take action to prevent us from making money!

:notme:

I have grasped the concept. However, our client is the reason for the non-conformance 80% of time (well, they were until they took access to the data away). Does one really write disposition "Thanks for the cash to revisit the location due to your ineptness"?

We install our customers products at retail locations. However, the majority of our issues are due to our client not telling us enough information or telling us wrong information (i.e. telling us a new store is open - we get there - barely done construction, retail location hasn't approved retail display, retail display won't fit <it is their responsibility to ensure product fits>, etc.). I feel that I would basically be documenting that our client's sales force is inept. It would basically be backup data should they ever try to blame us for poor delivery performance. In case you are wondering, each and every case is documented to them - unfortunately we don't have access to the complied data. To gain access to the data, we would have to enter the data a 2nd time. I would love to smack the client around on this, but, they are a major client and government (yes, sort of like convincing your wife/gf that football/hockey/baseball/NASCAR can be fun to watch!). In other words, efforts are better spent elsewhere. Oh ya, did I mention that we get paid again to address the nonconformance?

I guess the hardest thing I am trying to get my head around is to ensure I address all aspects of the ISO standard I will have to duplicate something I am already doing AND try to take action to prevent us from making money!

:notme:


Perhaps you are right. Often it is the customer who is at the root cause. Government personnel can be frustrating. However, I think you are missing some opportunities here. The corrective action process is something you do to solve the causes of a problem, not something you do for ISO. Consequently, look at your own side of the fence as well. What cues are your people missing? What questions were not being asked? Did they suspect a problem and not follow through? Reading between the lines on your post suggests there is some improvement to be gained there as well.

We track service-related complaints at my organization and classify them as either sales-based or mill-based. My site is responsible for addressing the latter. Sales (based off-site) is responsible for addressing the former.

We document them in a web-based system so that the entire organization can have a look (if they so desire) and track credits, disposition, root cause, actions taken, etc.

More often than not, a service related complaint is resolved through a credit (i.e., we pay the Customer for their inconvenience)...even if the Customer is at fault (if any of our Customers are reading this...and there are some on the Cove...don't get any ideas! I know who you are! :cool: ). However, we look at it as an opportunity to improve the system.

Let's use "Improper loading by mill" as an example. This means we didn't use the proper spacers requested by the Customer or have the proper distance between the bundles or something along those lines. This issue can resolve in potential damage to the product or impeded the Customer's ability to off-load the product from the truck.

At the end of the day, the Customer accepts the product, but they're saying that we made things difficult for them. So we promise never to do it again.

Of course, I am well aware that Murphy is a full time employee and odds are it will happen again (despite our best intentions). If we have the same complaint (not necessarily from the same Customer) within our designated frequency window (typically 3 months), eyebrows are raised as is the yellow flag.

However, if the same classification of service-mill complaint occurs within 3 months, a Preventive Action is raised (the treatment of the complaint is corrective, but we are noting an adverse trend hence the issuance of preventive) and we look at the bigger picture versus the individual complaint. It could be a computer system issue (e.g., perhaps the Customer's request for spacing is not translating onto the order) or a sales-mill communication issue (e.g., they don't like talking to us)...either way, a more indepth action plan is developed to nip this adverse trend in the bud.

Long story short...the individual complaint is logged as if it was any other complaint. Trends with service complaints result in preventive actions being initiated.

Some more info.

When we could track the data much easier, we did analyze the nonconformances on a monthly basis. There were multiple reasons (under our control) that were raised. Within 8 months, we were able to reduce our frequency to virtually zero.

The frequency of nonconformances had (remember, I don't have access to this data anymore without duplication of work)greatly decreased (less than 1% of all service orders).

Unfortunately, when we discussed the client issue with them there was little to no response (there may have been, but, no response from the client's sales force). So the same issues keep occurring. If the client does not see a benefit in addressing these issues - I am left to collect this data for ISO purposes only as it serves little to no benefit to the company!

The biggest issue is poor information from their sales staff. We must rely on them to tell us what will and won't fit in a location, whether a location is open or not, etc. We don't always have easy access to do a check to verify a location is available to that product will fit where requested. We have implemented some corrections on our part (i.e. when a certain type of product is requested at a certain type of location - we automatically change how we fulfill the order due to standard location issues). Unfortunately, this is the only consistent item we have found that we can assist in addressing.

Basically, I will have the log created and move forward.

Fortunately, we didn't get a nonconformance as we were able to prove that we were logging it until we "lost" access to compiled data (this is relatively recent). He did note it as an OFI though.

I am left to collect this data for ISO purposes only as it serves little to no benefit to the company!If you truly believe that, you should start questioning what you are doing.

Hello All

Any reference or example for Service Nonconformance Procedure?
Thanks

If you truly believe that, you should start questioning what you are doing.


I agree with Sidney. It is not our place, as outsiders, to dictate what you should measure.

However, you stated your process disatisfies your customer approximately 1 time in every 100 events. And those are just the ones significant enough to generate a complaint. You should anticipate there are additional minor disatisfactions and transactions that do not generate a complaint.

There remains plenty of opportunity to improve your processes. You should analyze and decide which aspects (criteria) deserve to improve, and decide how to measure and improve those.

Don't do it for ISO, do it for the benefit of your company and customers.

John, I can sense (and justifiably so) that you are quite frustrated with this matter. I have read through your posts (you're a good writer, by the way) and I am still a bit confused on a few things. Sorry if you have explained this, and I have not figured it out.

1. You go in and install these systems for your customer.
2. Many times, you feel time and effort is wasted, as your customer has poorly communicated to you about time-frames, status, etc.

Here's where I'm confused...

Does your customer issue a nonconformance to you, or do you issue it? Or does the third-party you are doing the installation for issue it?

If it is your customer, then why not create an investigation system of some sorts? You take the nonconformance, find out what it's about, and either document the failure as the system with your customer, or issue a corrective action with how you perform your job.

My point is this, just because your customer is issuing these nonconformances does not mean you now have to create some mirror system/additional system that does not provide any value to you.

Is this accurate? (it is in my mind): A nonconformance from your customer, does not translate to a nonconformance on your part.

My reasoning for this would also be to have your own information-here's where we screwed up, and here are things that were totally out of our control, and honestly, you should be billing the customer extra.

I realize this is your customer, and it's government. But I am wondering if you might be able to manage your customer (just a little bit). Too, I would strongly encourage you to utilize your quality system to develop good business practices, not to make your job even more frustrating.

Hello All

Any reference or example for Service Nonconformance Procedure?
Thanks

Why should it be any different from your Nonconformance Procedure? Just add in the parameters for Service issues.

Brad,

We actually inform our client of the nonconformance and enter it into their database (we have a dedicated PC that is connected to their system only). It is then up to their sales force to follow up on the issue (i.e change the order to a product that will fit, adjust the order to a new date for a new location, etc.).

We address any issues we can address internally..however, these are reduced to a very low frequency that makes it seem like we don't have a tracking system for the service nonconformance (~.1-.2% internal nonconformance rate on service component)

In order for us to track this info, we would have to enter the same nonconformance data into a separate log for essentially 30-50 nonconformances/yr that we can control. (the duplication of work I have been referring to)

Many of you raised some good points that I will consider in including the service component into our system again.

John

It's really no different from a nonconforming condition in a palpable product. If there is a clear requirement, it shouldn't be difficult to identify occasions when the requirement isn't met. For example, if you use a messenger service, and the requirement is that stuff will be delivered undamaged, within x hours, and your customer informs you that a package was delivered two hours late, smashed to bits, then you know the requirements weren't met.

If you're having trouble documenting any kind of nonconforming condition, it most likely means that the requirements aren't clear.Jim, that is correct. However, in the Service based sector, the ISO 9000 definition of requirement needs to be carefully read:3.1.2 requirement: need or expectation that is stated, generally implied or obligatory


NOTE 1 “Generally implied” means that it is custom or common practice for the organization (3.3.1), its customers (3.3.5) and other interested parties (3.3.7), that the need or expectation under consideration is implied.


So, the "generally implied" aspect is a VERY IMPORTANT aspect to be considered. When I go to a restaurant, I don't sign a document stating that I expect to have my food served within 9 minutes and 37 seconds, after it is ordered....and it should be served at 143 degrees F +- 3.5 degrees, etc.....

So, the "generally implied" aspect is a VERY IMPORTANT aspect to be considered. When I go to a restaurant, I don't sign a document stating that I expect to have my food served within 9 minutes and 37 seconds, after it is ordered....and it should be served at 143 degrees F +- 3.5 degrees, etc.....




You make a good point, but it doesn't change my original response. An implied obligation should carry the same weight as a written one with regard to identifying nonconforming conditions. If the expectation actually does belong in the category, it shouldn't be difficult to write a finding when it's violated. If it is difficult, then the requirement, implied or otherwise, is too vague, and too open to interpretation.

UPDATE

I have been able to work with the client (err..convince?) so that I have access to the "nonconformance" data.

They have agreed to work with me to create a report from their system that allows me to track and take actions where necessary to address service nonconformances.

The funny part was that they said they have very little to no issues with our performance; most of the issues are their internal issues. Hmm....yes, I offered to be part of the solution to resolve those issues where possible.

Looks like it is solved; however, may not result in much benefit.

John

Hi All,

What is the meaning for Non Conformance for the organization not doing any manufacturing?

Engineering services company normally work against customers Engineering specification ie Data or drawings.

Here how the terms like

REWORK
USE AS IS
REPAIR
SCRAP
RETURN TO THE SOURCE
Will applicable?

1.How to Identifying non conforming products?
2.How to determining Dispositions?

What will be the Inspection Criteria for Services Company?

I work in a service industry - transportation. We have to document nonconformances for service all the time....

Example: If we have a customer that is expecting next day delivery of a product we picked up and we dont deliver - we failed. Late delivery.

If we have customer that request we pick up merchandise today to deliver to their customer and our driver does not make it to their facility - we failed to meet the customers expectations - we failed -