(1) I read that there are only 7 QPs for ISO/ TS 16949 required. Questions are: do we need to document processes such as `Incoming QC inspection', `Inprocess QC inspection' ...

If we don't need to document them, how do we adopt a standard way of performing the work?

(2) I'm used to ISO 9000 whereby audits are based on QPs. Understand that TS audits are based on turtle diagram. How is such an audit conducted?

:confused:

(1) I read that there are only 7 QPs for ISO/ TS 16949 required. Questions are: do we need to document processes such as `Incoming QC inspection', `Inprocess QC inspection' ...

If we don't need to document them, how do we adopt a standard way of performing the work?

(2) I'm used to ISO 9000 whereby audits are based on QPs. Understand that TS audits are based on turtle diagram. How is such an audit conducted?

:confused:


Dear Friend, it is clear from your post that you are struggling to understand the requirements. It would be beneficial to reread the TS-16949 standard a few more times. Each time it will become clearer.

It might also be useful to read ISO 9004:2000 (note I said 9004 not 9001). It gives much good information. If you have not had formal training classes, perhaps they would be helpful as well. It is much better to tackle TS with proper training and reading.

As to your questions, TS clause 4.2.1.c mentions that sentence that certain procedures (7) are required by the standard, AND cl 4.2.1.d says AND any OTHER documents needed by the organization to ensure it's processes are in control. In other words, the standard expects YOU to define which documents you feel you need, in addition to the first 7 procedures. No company should attempt to run it with only the first 7. That was never the intent.

So, if you feel you would benefit from a procedure or instruction defining inspection, then by all means write it. This requirement merely allows you to NOT write docuemnts you don't feel would be beneficial.

Good Luck.

Thanks, Hijling. I only know ISO 9000, no training and experience in ISO/ TS 16949 but am tasked to do recertify my co. in June. I've only been on the job for 2 mths.

Was told that TS needs turtle diagram for audits unlike ISO 9000 when we audit against the QPs. How's this being done?

Thanks, Hijling. I only know ISO 9000, no training and experience in ISO/ TS 16949 but am tasked to do recertify my co. in June. I've only been on the job for 2 mths.

Was told that TS needs turtle diagram for audits unlike ISO 9000 when we audit against the QPs. How's this being done?

Welcome to the Cove :bigwave:

Turtle diagrams are NOT a requirement. Neither are Flow diagrams of any type. A lot (most?) companies have employed one or the other as a means to disply/describe their process interactions. A "text description" is another option.

Good luck with your task. The timeline appears rather agressive to me.

Thanks, Hijling. I only know ISO 9000, no training and experience in ISO/ TS 16949 but am tasked to do recertify my co. in June. I've only been on the job for 2 mths.

Was told that TS needs turtle diagram for audits unlike ISO 9000 when we audit against the QPs. How's this being done?


Both TS and ISO 9001 require the system to define and audit by the process approach. (Auditing QP's can be part of that approach). Neither standard actually requires Turtle diagrams, flowcharts, etc. but they are a helpful way to describe the interactions.

Thanks Bill and Hijing for your advice. Yeah, my boss is very aggressive on this. I was and am still at a loss how to go about it with no guidance.

I'm following Hijing's advice now to read and re-read the TS several times. I just completed the turtle diagram after my boss' constant poundings and embarassing me in front of the whole factory that I have done `nothing'. Nevertheless, my turtle diagram is now rejected by the sales manager with no explanation.

I am biting the bullet to go through this recertification so that I can gain the TS experience.

May I know what else can I do?

Thanks Bill and Hijing for your advice. Yeah, my boss is very aggressive on this. I was and am still at a loss how to go about it with no guidance.

I'm following Hijing's advice now to read and re-read the TS several times. I just completed the turtle diagram after my boss' constant poundings and embarassing me in front of the whole factory that I have done `nothing'. Nevertheless, my turtle diagram is now rejected by the sales manager with no explanation.

I am biting the bullet to go through this recertification so that I can gain the TS experience.

May I know what else can I do?

Remember, a Turtle Diagram only shows the details for one process. If you did a Turtle for the Sales process, for example, you should work with the Sales Manager to identify the different parts of the Turtle.

Somewhere on this Cove, I posted a modified Turtle diagram that is easier to use, and more complete. It might be useful to you to try it.

Welcome to the cove, Rambler.

I do not know who told you that turtle diagrams are needed for TS; they are not required.

If nothing exists, turtle diagrams alone may not be enough to show controls in auditing and inspection processes. If the processes are recorded with procedures, then the "turtles" are not needed. There's no point in having a stack of various things for the same process.

I find turtles most helpful when a process has no clear governing document. It merely organizes the aspects of a process into topics.

If you are trying to establish process documents from the beginning, flow charts may be the best way to start. A flow chart can be included in a procedure as an attachment or appendix. Doing that could simplify the procedure into listing tools, materials, requirements, related processes and responsibilities.

It sounds like you could benefit from some added support on this. Why don't you see if you can find your closest ASQ chapter and visit them on a meeting night? Maybe they have a library of books to help you or a class you could attend. Do a Google search with the words ASQ and your state to find more QA professionals and resources in your area.

Meanwhile, please feel free to use the Search function in the tool bar. There are lots of attachments in this forum, and a number of threads on subjects like yours.

........ May I know what else can I do?

Read through all the threads under the TS section! Almost all the clauses and requirements had been discussed and/or debated upon.

Regards.

Thanks Hijing and Jennifer. You guys are very helpful. This is a wonderful forum.

Hijing,
My turtle diagram covers the entire company: from customer (beginning) to customer (end) with production as the main body. I'll email u my turtle diagram when i get into office tomorrow and plse give me your comments on it.

Jennifer,
My boss and my colleague, a production engineer, who went thru' the TS surveillance last year, told me that our external certification body claimed that the turtle diagram is a new requirement. One of the minor discrepancy found last year was that there was no `interaction diagram of all our processes'. Which is why my boss pushed and pushed for it when i just started work for a few weeks. Till now, I don't know what is the significance of it. Neither do my company's dept heads when my boss want them to review and commit per my turtle diagram.

I'll take your advice and search for `ASQ' in my region. However, as I'm on probation, my co. will not send me for training.

Hi,

This is my turtle diagram. Your comments plse.:bonk:

Hi,

This is my turtle diagram. Your comments plse.:bonk:

Overall, it looks very good, with the following comments:

1. This is a flow diagram, not a Turtle. It is good, I just wanted you to know the difference. There are examples of Turtle Diagrams on the Cove.

2. Contract is listed twice - COP 1, SP 13.

3. Purchasing is listed as an SP 11, it usually is a COP. If you don't buy raw material, there is no product.

4. Same with SP 8, Handling & Shipping. It is like COP - it goes to the Customer.

5. Do you really need 4 processes - SP 1-4, to describe the process of Inspection?

Nice job.

I'm grateful to hjilling for reviewing the diagram. It is of process flow/interaction, which TS calls a process map and is required by all the registrars I know of. The process map shows how the processes work together as a system.

Turtle diagrams are usually made for a single process. Please see this thread (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=7681&highlight=turtle+diagram)for more information and attachments of more examples.

Many thanks to Hijing, Jennifer and Patricia for your help and guidance! :tg: I was having hallucinations about ISO/ TS over the weekends.

I've gone through the turtle diagram threads earlier before I came out with this `turtle' or process interaction map format that my boss wanted.

Thanks alot for offering your help, Patricia. But I don't have the time to restart this process again after all, now my boss accepted my `interaction map' which I took quite a while to prepare. However, I'll definitely need your help along the way now to recertification..

Many thanks to Hijing, Jennifer and Patricia for your help and guidance! :tg: I was having hallucinations about ISO/ TS over the weekends.

I've gone through the turtle diagram threads earlier before I came out with this `turtle' or process interaction map format that my boss wanted.

Thanks alot for offering your help, Patricia. But I don't have the time to restart this process again after all, now my boss accepted my `interaction map' which I took quite a while to prepare. However, I'll definitely need your help along the way now to recertification..


By the way, we thought your process map was well done. I will even keep a copy as an example of a high level process map. We just wanted you to be aware that it was not called a "Turtle." The Turtle Diagram is called that, because the boxes look like a turtle from a bird's eye view. The are no necessary unless you want to make them for clarity.

Either way, the high level map would be needed anyway. It ties it all together. Also, remember you need to define the interactions (inputs and outputs) for each process (cl 4.1.b). That is where the Turtles can be useful.

Many thanks to Hijing, Jennifer and Patricia for your help and guidance! :tg: I was having hallucinations about ISO/ TS over the weekends. You're welcome, though I was not of much use as tis is not my strongest area.

I can imagine your stressing about this over the weekend! :lol: --you sounded as though you're in pretty deep and your boss didn't seem very patient.

This TS thing is a big subject, I hope you will keep checking back so you can get some of the support you need.

By the way, I found a source in Singapore that you might want to check out on your own, even if your boss does not see fit to send you:

SINGAPORE—Site 2551
Singapore Quality Institute
Blk 52 #03-12
Ngee Ann Polytechnic,
535 Clementi Rd.
SINGAPORE 599489
phone: 65 4674225
fax: 65 4674226

http://www.sqi.org.sg/

Hi Hijing,

Thanks a lot for your praise! :biglaugh: I have more confidence now in carrying out my task.

(1) Cl 4.1 does not call for a QP to describe the interaction.

Nevertheless, nobody (except my boss) understands my interaction maps until I explain to them. These colleagues have even gone for Internal Auditor Training for TS, which I have not.

(2) My co. is divided into 2 sections: TS and ISO. The latter is for parts not for automotive customers. We have a prototype department which is producing batches of parts for the customers. Thereafter, the full production is transferred to another country. Since they are not continuing their production here, do they have to adhere to ISO?

I find it very difficult to integrate this prototype dept into our ISO/ TS quality system. Any clue?

(3) Can you explain what constitute a `non-compliance' and `observations' during audit ?

(4) Yesterday, I was auditted on Sect 4 & 5 by my colleague. Do we follow the IATF Quality System Assessment Checklist rather than check according to our QPs? Both my colleague and I were fumbling through the audit but fortunately, it was only the 2 of us. I'm now rewriting my Internal Quality Audit QP to blend in with the TS requirements rather than having TS and ISO separately.

Thanks again for your time and consultance.

Rambler, I am not surprised if your boss does not understand your drawing. Making such diagrams requires a kind of spacial intelligence, and is a skill that I dare say most people don't learn in TS training. So you're ahead of him in that aspect, but a registrar would understand it.

Hi Jennifer,

Your concerns and kind words are sufficient to ease my stress.

My friends and colleagues don't understand TS and they (my boss especially) think that since I am given fulltime for this task, I should be able to come out with the `interaction maps' in just 6 weeks after I started it. At that time, I don't even know there is this wonderful forum when I can share and discuss.

Yeah, I know SQI. Problem is: company will not send me since I'm on probation. I can't attend on my own too as (i) course fees quite high (ii) I cannot go for course during office hours now till I am confirmed in June. So, if my co. fails the TS recertification, I have to pack my bag in June.

My boss just comments that I am progressing o.k. yesterday. So, I think I can last till June, at least.:cfingers:

Hi Hijing,

Thanks a lot for your praise! :biglaugh: I have more confidence now in carrying out my task.

(1) Cl 4.1 does not call for a QP to describe the interaction.

Nevertheless, nobody (except my boss) understands my interaction maps until I explain to them. These colleagues have even gone for Internal Auditor Training for TS, which I have not.

(2) My co. is divided into 2 sections: TS and ISO. The latter is for parts not for automotive customers. We have a prototype department which is producing batches of parts for the customers. Thereafter, the full production is transferred to another country. Since they are not continuing their production here, do they have to adhere to ISO?

I find it very difficult to integrate this prototype dept into our ISO/ TS quality system. Any clue?

(3) Can you explain what constitute a `non-compliance' and `observations' during audit ?

(4) Yesterday, I was auditted on Sect 4 & 5 by my colleague. Do we follow the IATF Quality System Assessment Checklist rather than check according to our QPs? Both my colleague and I were fumbling through the audit but fortunately, it was only the 2 of us. I'm now rewriting my Internal Quality Audit QP to blend in with the TS requirements rather than having TS and ISO separately.

Thanks again for your time and consultance.


Rambler, unfortunately, there are many things you must learn to manage TS and ISO effectively. It is not possible to learn it just by asking questions. Is it possible to take training for this? Or, there are many good books that explain the process approach.

Your internal audits for TS and ISO should be performed to a process approach. The TS Rules book, 2nd Edition explains it a little better. The TS checklist is obsolete now.

Rambler: you can try "SIPOC" on your search engine this is the initials of "Supplier Input Process Output Customer", that is tha basics of the turtle diagram.

By the way I'm new on this good web site:applause: