Hello.

My name is Jason and I am a first time poster on this forum although I've used the forum's contents often to help me in implementing ISO 9001:2000.

Here's my issue and why I am in need of advice (if anyone has any).

I'll make this as brief as I can w/out overwhelming you all w/ too many details.

I work for a company in NW Indiana that in its 15 year existence has never had a quality system in place. Right now my company is in the process of developing an ISO quality system--9001:2000. I am the "coordinator' so to speak. We have a consultant as well. This is a company that including ownership consists of 13 people. We manufacture spectrometers.

My main job title is Engineering/Customer Support Technician/ISO manager-coordinator. I've been here 10 months. Last August was when the Gap Analysis began. Given my 4 years experience as a Quality Auditor I was designated to head up ISO along w/ the consultant. A year prior my company tried ISO and failed before it even got off the ground due to management's lack of committment.

Since late August when this all began, management has been very wishy washy. I was doing ISO, conducting meetings, etc., basically full-time while doing my other "job" as I could. Their wishy washy committment was ever apparrent when out of nowhere they told me I could only spent 1 hour a day working on ISO while the consultant did everything and would then update me. After a few weeks w/ help from the consultant, I was given 2 hours a day to work on ISO.

I am head of Document Control, Internal Auditing, the designated Quality Manager, the Management Reprensentative, and whatever else they want to call me. Each individual in the company has a role in the task groups to some extent.

To give you an idea of where we're at, all task groups are open. Some are complete, some are currently met w/ weekly, and others every so often. Management wants to be certified by the first of November (we'll see). They have this belief that it can be micromanaged. They believe it's not a full-time job and that I can due my "normal job" as engineering and support while running the quality system, doc control, conduct meetings, internal audits, etc. All the while, they plant to enlist the consultant to work one day a week to help long after we are certified.

I am only 30. I have 4 years of Quality Auditor experience and my experience in quality in which I've obtained here at the company I work for now. I possess degree's in both Business Admin and IT having spent a few years working in the IT field prior to coming here.

I'm pretty comfortable w/ pursuing my career in quality. I'd like to obtain ASQ certifications and w/ continued pursuite and hard work, I'll have a career I'm very proud of and happy w/. Also, my pay working for a small company like this is very suspect. I took a huge cut to come here and helo these guys out. I re-located from Indy and IT jobs here just aren't here so this was meant to be a temporary thing until something IT-related came up.

This whole ISO thing kept me here a lot longer and it's been a great experience. Fact of the matter is, w/ how management is due to the smallness of company, I will not see another dime no matter what I do or what job title I have. On top of that, there's so much delusion amongst management regarding what it takes to not only implement ISO but run it and maintain it. They believe I can be support and engineering and run ISO and all my duties associate w/ it at the same time.

Here's where I am in most need of advice. Is it worthwhile for me to continue to ride this out as the company becomes ISO certified (assuming it happens) and hoping that management will come around and realize that this is a full-time job thus the need to bring someone else in to take over doing support?
Or does this just sound like a complete mess where management will never get it making my life completely miserable and literally driving me out of this company?

I've thought of options:

1) Stay, hoping they will come around and realize I am needed to do this full-time. All the while gaining valuable experience on top of the experience I already have ultimately either leading to a raise or at least such a level of experience that I can take that experience and run w/ it. Also if I stay, I have a great relationship w/ the ISO consultant. He and I are interested in taking ASQ certifications together adding to the intrigue of staying.

2) Consider leaving all together and looking for employment in quality elsewhere (which I've already begun to do) knowing that given management's delusional thinking, the'y'll never wake up and realize what it will take to implement and maintain ISO. The last thing I want to do is beat myself blind beleiving they'll come around when they don't. Given the wish washy tactics so far, I have no reason to believe that will ever change.

3) Continue doing what I'm doing, adding to my experience. On the side, get my resume out there and interview for quality positions. During my interviews finding out what advancement opportunities are there/room for growth, etc. Give myself some options, and do what's best for me.

What I don't want to do is take another job in quality elsewhere for a lot more money obtaining the immediate satisfaction then be stuck unable to move up. I'm willing to stay here and pay my dues, giving this place every opportunity to come around and not only succeed as a company but allowing me to succeed and in the process obtain invaluable experience that could skyrocket me into a quality position in a couple years that would be well worth the dues I would have paid here.

I apologize for this being so long everyone. It's just such an uneasy position to be in knowing that I want all the responsibilties here at this company so I can prove myself yet at the same time having no idea what the heck is going to happen and if I am wasting my time.

I welcome any thoughts you all may have, all of which will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Jason

Jason,

Welcome to the Cove !

I don´t see your management coming around and all of a sudden realizing that they need a fulll timer for the QA position... you are the only one who knows the work load you have...

I´d go for option #4 - put the knife between your teeth and do everything humanly possible to certify the organization by Nov 1. Seeing as you get along well with the consultant, you guys can do it together. Meanwhile keep your ears open for other positions (ASQ has a career center on their site). Once you get the current organization certifiied, you´ve got that under your belt and can use that as a marketing tool for yourself.

Those are my :2cents:

Good Luck !!

Well, if management has hired a consultant, do the listen to him/her?
If so, said consultant needs to jump all over them about commmitment, and you need to also put your foot down and tell them what you need. (remember, and remind them, that it is management's job to provide the resources needed to implement and maintain the system) Be prepared to look for a new job, if you haven't started already. or, if you don't want to leave, then accept the fact that you will become the scapegoat, and either be fired or hamstrung from ever advancing.

Hello, Jason!

Quick question: If you had to pick the perfect job, what would it be? Now, cut out the 300$/yr, 20 hrs. golf, etc. joke stuff: what gives you enrichment? What gives you satisfaction? If it's quality, then stick with quality.

Do you want to leave? If you did, what would you do?

If you sense your organization is not supporting the quality initiatives adequately, chances are they never will. If you want to stay in quality, I might wait until they achieve their certification (if they ever do). If you don't want to go into quality, then I would start looking at the threads on resumes, job search, etc.

Jason,
Dude I do not know your personality and how you handle praise (external or internal sources), but as soon as you get registered you will indeed feel good for your accomplishment. The only thing is the noncommitedness of management or taking part in it's maintenance, It seems it will all fall on your shoulders time and time again. You may get a pat in the back for a job well done but you said you will not see another dime.. Stick with it, but definitely hav option open to you and you can put this under your belt down the road.
Good Luck..

One thing that I neglected to add in my post, and it is really important:

Is there someone at your level or higher who IS commited or at least sees the gain and can become committed? You could us an ally in this, you could do a lot worse than cultivate a relationship NOW. My motto is "use your friends wisely"

I say go for choice #3. Do what you can there but get your name out there. If you get another offer bounce one off of the other a take the one who gives you the best answer. :bigwave:

MsHeeler

Jason,

Tricky question - but thanks for the detail, because without some of the background it's hard respond. Long is good at times :)

Sounds like there are some pluses & minuses, on the plus side being a good relationship with the consultant, possibility of getting more training, possibility of getting certification... but on the minus side is the "delusional thinking" and lack of commitment.

The bit that worries the most is that you say: , the'y'll never wake up and realize what it will take to implement and maintain ISO. The last thing I want to do is beat myself blind beleiving they'll come around when they don't.

Given the wish washy tactics so far, I have no reason to believe that will ever change.

Which is the big sticking block.

Doing the same thing & expecting a different result is said to be a definition of insanity.

So the options would include: try & effect change, by doing something different. For example, getting the consultant to confront management with lack of commitment. It's just possible they don't actually realise what they need to do (I'm being nice): I'd spell out exactly what is required. Which of course means you need to decide between you what are the critical success factors, and insist on those being provided.

Because if they're not forthcoming, the project and you are doomed to failure.

So the other option (plan B) would be: make your plans to get out. There's no point in flogging a dead horse, once you're sure it's dead. In fact, it's counter-productive.

I confronted the MD (a client) the other day and essentially said, you need to do X and Y and Z, by such & such a date ... or you must postpone the forthcoming pre-audit. Now, I said it nicely, and I said it very politely. But I was quite clear about what had to happen, and when, or certification was off the agenda for the time being.

Now, in this case, he did what I insisted had to happen. But that's my responsibility - they don't pay me as a consultant not to tell them the hard truth when it's necessary. And I've got years of successful certifications behind me, which gives me the experience and the knowledge of when to insist... and when to walk away, if necessary.

Also - try this thread (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=186065#post186065) on a fairly similar topic. Round about p2, jerzki wrote about a similar problem: you'll find some good info on the importance of top management commitment - and how to recognise when it aint' there.

Sounds to me like you have really made the decision to leave. The question is merely "when."

We have several threads you should read through before making the decision "when."
Thinking about a New Job for New Year? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19619)
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19619
Resume and cover letter - How good are yours? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10169)
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10169
The Job Hunt - Care and feeding of references (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19094)
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19094
Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325)
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325

:topic: Depending on who the consultant is and his motivation, he can be an ally or a detriment. In general, the best consultants I know do not set themselves up to "do everything," but make an effort to involve management and staff in the process as opposed to providing a "turnkey" ISO registration by giving generic procedures and quality manual "guaranteed to pass the registrar's audit."

My colleague, Randy Daily, is infamous for railing against one consultant who offers "registration in 40 days" who essentially does the generic document thing.

Hi Jason, your problem here seems to be a common one among smaller companies whose CEO is the owner or owners family members. I too have a very similar situation with my company (150 people). I believe this is primarily due to 'needing' ISO certification for sales/supply or export , or the feeling that an 'external' quality structure will give them some competitive advantage. I have chosen your option #3 myself, to gain as much knowledge as possible while looking for another opportunity somewhere else. Family run and owned companies can be impossible to deal with if they do not commit personally to a system. This commitment must be visible, and lived out daily, since the employees will 'sense' the commitment level of the CEO and follow suit. My advice is: If the whole premise is a charade - do your best anyway, but look for other options , after all , Quality is a lifestyle, and if you really are a quality person , you won't be able to live with yourself as part of a charade , and you won't be able to do what all quality people must learn to do , Help Others Succeed, because when others succeed, we succeed.

Family run and owned companies can be impossible to deal with if they do not commit personally to a system.

True of any company, really, family-run or owned or otherwise. That said, I now use 'family-owned & run' as a warning flag to look very carefully at, as they very often have people in key positions that they just couldn't & wouldn't get on their own merits, and aren't really competent for.

This commitment must be visible, and lived out daily, since the employees will 'sense' the commitment level of the CEO and follow suit.

Yuu've hit the nail right on the head, and I think made your own wise decision. The things that employees do are those that are important to the CEO/MD, who can and may well 'spout' a few words about whatever... but if they don't back that up by living it out daily, the employees will (again, quite rightly IMO) follow their lead. It all begins with top management. Believing otherwise is like trying to turn the Titanic on to a different course.

And working in a company where you don't or cannot respect the CEO is bad for the spirit.:frust: It was a couple of those experiences in a row that ultimately put me on a path which led to me starting my own consulting firm... and although there have been tough times along the way, work-wise I've never been happier.

:thanx: JaneB

I hadn't taken the time to realize a corollary that you brought up. Family run companies can be staffed by friends/favorites etc. This is also the situation here, and maybe a large contributor to the problem...

Hello.

My name is Jason and I am a first time poster on this forum although I've used the forum's contents often to help me in implementing ISO 9001:2000.

Here's my issue and why I am in need of advice (if anyone has any).

I'll make this as brief as I can w/out overwhelming you all w/ too many details.

I work for a company in NW Indiana that in its 15 year existence has never had a quality system in place. Right now my company is in the process of developing an ISO quality system--9001:2000. I am the "coordinator' so to speak. We have a consultant as well. This is a company that including ownership consists of 13 people. We manufacture spectrometers.

My main job title is Engineering/Customer Support Technician/ISO manager-coordinator. I've been here 10 months. Last August was when the Gap Analysis began. Given my 4 years experience as a Quality Auditor I was designated to head up ISO along w/ the consultant. A year prior my company tried ISO and failed before it even got off the ground due to management's lack of committment.

Since late August when this all began, management has been very wishy washy. I was doing ISO, conducting meetings, etc., basically full-time while doing my other "job" as I could. Their wishy washy committment was ever apparrent when out of nowhere they told me I could only spent 1 hour a day working on ISO while the consultant did everything and would then update me. After a few weeks w/ help from the consultant, I was given 2 hours a day to work on ISO.

I am head of Document Control, Internal Auditing, the designated Quality Manager, the Management Reprensentative, and whatever else they want to call me. Each individual in the company has a role in the task groups to some extent.

To give you an idea of where we're at, all task groups are open. Some are complete, some are currently met w/ weekly, and others every so often. Management wants to be certified by the first of November (we'll see). They have this belief that it can be micromanaged. They believe it's not a full-time job and that I can due my "normal job" as engineering and support while running the quality system, doc control, conduct meetings, internal audits, etc. All the while, they plant to enlist the consultant to work one day a week to help long after we are certified.

I am only 30. I have 4 years of Quality Auditor experience and my experience in quality in which I've obtained here at the company I work for now. I possess degree's in both Business Admin and IT having spent a few years working in the IT field prior to coming here.

I'm pretty comfortable w/ pursuing my career in quality. I'd like to obtain ASQ certifications and w/ continued pursuite and hard work, I'll have a career I'm very proud of and happy w/. Also, my pay working for a small company like this is very suspect. I took a huge cut to come here and helo these guys out. I re-located from Indy and IT jobs here just aren't here so this was meant to be a temporary thing until something IT-related came up.

This whole ISO thing kept me here a lot longer and it's been a great experience. Fact of the matter is, w/ how management is due to the smallness of company, I will not see another dime no matter what I do or what job title I have. On top of that, there's so much delusion amongst management regarding what it takes to not only implement ISO but run it and maintain it. They believe I can be support and engineering and run ISO and all my duties associate w/ it at the same time.

Here's where I am in most need of advice. Is it worthwhile for me to continue to ride this out as the company becomes ISO certified (assuming it happens) and hoping that management will come around and realize that this is a full-time job thus the need to bring someone else in to take over doing support?
Or does this just sound like a complete mess where management will never get it making my life completely miserable and literally driving me out of this company?

I've thought of options:

1) Stay, hoping they will come around and realize I am needed to do this full-time. All the while gaining valuable experience on top of the experience I already have ultimately either leading to a raise or at least such a level of experience that I can take that experience and run w/ it. Also if I stay, I have a great relationship w/ the ISO consultant. He and I are interested in taking ASQ certifications together adding to the intrigue of staying.

2) Consider leaving all together and looking for employment in quality elsewhere (which I've already begun to do) knowing that given management's delusional thinking, the'y'll never wake up and realize what it will take to implement and maintain ISO. The last thing I want to do is beat myself blind beleiving they'll come around when they don't. Given the wish washy tactics so far, I have no reason to believe that will ever change.

3) Continue doing what I'm doing, adding to my experience. On the side, get my resume out there and interview for quality positions. During my interviews finding out what advancement opportunities are there/room for growth, etc. Give myself some options, and do what's best for me.

What I don't want to do is take another job in quality elsewhere for a lot more money obtaining the immediate satisfaction then be stuck unable to move up. I'm willing to stay here and pay my dues, giving this place every opportunity to come around and not only succeed as a company but allowing me to succeed and in the process obtain invaluable experience that could skyrocket me into a quality position in a couple years that would be well worth the dues I would have paid here.

I apologize for this being so long everyone. It's just such an uneasy position to be in knowing that I want all the responsibilties here at this company so I can prove myself yet at the same time having no idea what the heck is going to happen and if I am wasting my time.

I welcome any thoughts you all may have, all of which will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Jason

Dear Jason ,
I just read your post and my piece of advice is:
Be patient and think of the future of the company in 5 or 10 years.
Also ask the management if there is a plan for the future ,both for you and for the company.
Good luck.
:magic:

I am a consultant who is on the other side. The company who is my client has an ISO manager whose "other tasks and assignments" commits him to having only about 1-3 hours a week working on ISO. I am here one day a week to keep the system working, let alone improvements.
So far, we have succeeded in the audits - no major nonconformances. Last registrar audit had 0 non-conformances. We are mapping out where the ISO system needs to go - some of the processes and such reflect back before the 2001 standard and need updating.
You need to make the consultant YOUR right hand man. That what I do - I always try to have the focus for success on the "official" ISO manager. We both then succeed - I am not a threat, and both the company and he appreciates my work (which keeps me working).
Since your company is willing to invest in a consultant, they probably recognize that your "other tasks and assignments" are pulling you away from the ISO work. They must value your other skills and abilities. It does not hurt to expand your skills and abilities and responsibilities. I never refused any assignment in my work career, and my resume reflects it - many different jobs, assignments, responsibilities, skills, etc. At this client company I have done ISO work, Lean work, Supply Chain work, Strategic Planning, and engineering.

So go for it.:yes:

Such good responses so far.

In the end only you can define what you personally want to get out of this experience. I get the sense that you care and will not be satisfied to act as just an employee. If that's true, I get the feeling you'd be happiest with choice #3 because you wouldn't be satisfied to wait for years.

I agree that the management people, for whever reason(s), will probably not "come around" or it will take so long that you would not feel satisfied with it.

I also agree to enter into a partnership with your consultant. This could benefit you in both direct and subtle ways.

It takes time to find good placement, so I guess it's not too early to very quietly feel out the job market. However, before actually making a move it seems sensible to see this thing through to the point of registration at least.

Please keep in mind that this is a new perspective from a technical side of quality. Many organizations have problems like wishy washy management commitment. That's why there's even a poll with a thread in the Cove titled (approximately) "Would you leave the quality profession if given the choice?"

Good luck with this. It helps to have a plan.