Hi,

2 weeks ago, our company being audited by TUV. One of the findings as follows:-

a) The internal audit plan has not conform to the ISO/TS 16949:2002 specification.
Objective Evidence : The system and product audit conducted in year 2006 were not cover night shift.

Any ideas how to close this NCR?

Thanks

Mazura

Let me guess...Perform an audit of the night shift?

Hi,

2 weeks ago, our company being audited by TUV. One of the findings as follows:-

a) The internal audit plan has not conform to the ISO/TS 16949:2002 specification.
Objective Evidence : The system and product audit conducted in year 2006 were not cover night shift.

Any ideas how to close this NCR?

Thanks

Mazura

If it is a system audit, where is the question of day or night shift ? The system audit reflects the system and is not dependent on any shift unless you have mentioned something in your procedures that you will perform night shift audits.:(

For TS you need to audit every shift and this is provided for in the internal audit section - 8.2.2.4.

You could always discuss with the auditor there and then on what actions you proposed to undertake. Most auditors I know are helpful and many even give you their e-mail contact where you can contact them for further queries.

I think you need to raise a corrective action, identify the root cause/shortcomings and carry out the necessary remedial action. Contact the auditor to find out his expectations - after all he had already audit your whole system.

Firstlty, does your organization has any nighshift operation? If yes, it is necessary to conduct a night shift audit to address the NCR No: 1. If no, it is not necessary to address the NCR No: 1.

The requirement to audit EVERY shift goes back to QS-9000.

NCR or not, I would think you would want to audit a night shift. Mainly for training and to verify that procedures are being complied with.

Doug

Hi,

3rd shift audit is a mandatory requirment in ISO/TS16949:2002 only if any of your process is carried in 3rd shift. Eg. If you have production process running in three shifts you have to audit production process in all the shifts including third shift. your audit schedule should clearly indicate the time in which you have scheduled the audit in third shift. and audit reports should be available as a objective evidence for having done the audit in the third shift.

Pan

Although I have not had experience with TS 16949, I have developed other quality systems with multiple shifts. It was considered "common sense" to audit all shifts. Why? There are many

1. To verify that everyone is following the same procedures
2. To ensure that information is flowing properly from one shift to the next (there is an exchange of work at shift change)
3. To avoid conflicts within the work force (i.e. how come they don't get audited?!)
4. To ensure that the procedures are appropriate to the processes
5. To ensure that EVERYONE has an equal opportunity to provide feedback (I like using audits as a way to get feedback from everyone regarding procedures - no - I am not a "gotcha" internal auditor)

Feel free to add to the list; however, you get the idea as to why it is a good idea to audit all shifts. Is it fun? No - however, it can be a great learning opportunity for everyone (including the auditors).

John

If it is a system audit, where is the question of day or night shift ? The system audit reflects the system and is not dependent on any shift unless you have mentioned something in your procedures that you will perform night shift audits.:(The idea is to see how well the system works, including when the managers are not in--on all shifts. We want to ensure there is not relaxation of compliance, poor performance, and lack of response to that if it occurs. We want to avoid a "poor stepchild" or playground atmosphere that can compromise overlal performance.

To close the CAR, describe how youi will schedule audits to ensure they are done on all shifts. Then do it.

The idea is to see how well the system works, including when the managers are not in--on all shifts. We want to ensure there is not relaxation of compliance, poor performance, and lack of response to that if it occurs. We want to avoid a "poor stepchild" or playground atmosphere that can compromise overlal performance.

In my experience the 'off shifts' often have better performance with less support etc. Makes you wonder why we need all those other folks on 'days', when the second and third shifts can get more done...........;)

Andy

In my experience the 'off shifts' often have better performance with less support etc. Makes you wonder why we need all those other folks on 'days', when the second and third shifts can get more done...........;)

Andy

............ probably the first shift is devoted to lot of unproductive meetings, discussions and arguments. I remember in one of my previous company, most employees would opt for second / third shift to avoid those stuff ;)

If the off-shifts are performing better, how does one define "better"?

More output per shift? Fewer defects per unit of output? Lower cost of defects per unit of output?

Once you identify and compare groups' performance in the same factors, it seems worthwhile to ask how managers contribute to the good performance of one group and what constraints they put up in another one.

Does it mean managers should just get out of the way and let people produce their high quality product without intervention? I'd say 'yes' as long as managers know the actions in that group do not add stress to another process, or make problems down the road. A manager's job should be to remove the obstacles to good performance on whatever shift, whether or not he/she is in the building.

Maybe the leadership styles on second shift should be studied for what makes them "better". :2cents:

Hi,

2 weeks ago, our company being audited by TUV. One of the findings as follows:-

a) The internal audit plan has not conform to the ISO/TS 16949:2002 specification.
Objective Evidence : The system and product audit conducted in year 2006 were not cover night shift.

Any ideas how to close this NCR?




This is the question guys, as usual focus was lost.

The appropriate response seems to be to amend the plan and audit what was missed.

Of course do all of the CA gibberish to take care of the adminstrative stuff.

If the off-shifts are performing better, how does one define "better"?

More output per shift? Fewer defects per unit of output? Lower cost of defects per unit of output?

Once you identify and compare groups' performance in the same factors, it seems worthwhile to ask how managers contribute to the good performance of one group and what constraints they put up in another one.

Does it mean managers should just get out of the way and let people produce their high quality product without intervention? I'd say 'yes' as long as managers know the actions in that group do not add stress to another process, or make problems down the road. A manager's job should be to remove the obstacles to good performance on whatever shift, whether or not he/she is in the building.

Maybe the leadership styles on second shift should be studied for what makes them "better". :2cents:

Totally!

I'm certain, Jennifer, that your organization is a 'cut above the rest' (from your posts here), but in my world, many managers are an albatross around the neck of success for the organization. I'm talking basic 'blocking and tackling' here, not something more. I'm appalled at the lack of knowledge of fundamental organizational management principles in even fairly large businesses. This is compounded by the third party certification process which then awards (rewards?) the organization for 'following its procedures' when, really, the system is flawed from the ground up/top down. I could take up the whole thread with examples of this, but that would be inappropriate. We all know it's out there.......

Andy

The appropriate response seems to be to amend the plan and audit what was missed. Which would be correction, but not corrective action since it does not to prevent re-currence.Of course do all of the CA gibberish to take care of the adminstrative stuff.Gibberish? Very telling. If you were to use this word in a class you teach, you would be sending the wrong message in my humble opinion.

I quite frequently use gibberish, dribble and tripe. I also believe I mentioned doing all administrative stuff which would have included the PA piece.

I'm a firm believer in keeping it as simple as possible, unlike others that just like to hear the wind between their teeth and over complicate the simple beyond recognition. We used to call it FUBAR.

Years ago when I said "halt" I didn't waste time giving long explanation as to the why's and way's to keep something from happening.

Fix the problem, and don't do it again!

... in my world, many managers are an albatross around the neck of success for the organization. I'm talking basic 'blocking and tackling' here, not something more. I'm appalled at the lack of knowledge of fundamental organizational management principles in even fairly large businesses. This is compounded by the third party certification process which then awards (rewards?) the organization for 'following its procedures' when, really, the system is flawed from the ground up/top down. I could take up the whole thread with examples of this, but that would be inappropriate. We all know it's out there.......Andy Oh yes, it really is a Dilbert world. And no, I'm not employed in some utopia. I'm rather an idealist... :o

Totally!

I'm certain, Jennifer, that your organization is a 'cut above the rest' (from your posts here), but in my world, many managers are an albatross around the neck of success for the organization. I'm talking basic 'blocking and tackling' here, not something more. I'm appalled at the lack of knowledge of fundamental organizational management principles in even fairly large businesses. This is compounded by the third party certification process which then awards (rewards?) the organization for 'following its procedures' when, really, the system is flawed from the ground up/top down. I could take up the whole thread with examples of this, but that would be inappropriate. We all know it's out there.......

Andy


Love ya Andy, it's so true:agree1: I'm sorry I missed this earlier

At present my organisation operate 24 / 7. We operate several shift patterns which include;

4 shifts running 4 days on 4 days off followed by 4 nights (7 day cover)
3 shifts running early, back and night shift
2 shifts running early and back shift
day shift

Our audits cover day and night shift sampled duing Monday to Thursday. No weekend audits are conducted. Do we need too? Our assessors always seemed realtively happy with our audit schedules.

With Regards,:confused:

In regards to the Original Poster, how is this...

Correction : Audit night shift.

Corrective Action : Develop the next schedule detailing all shifts and when they will be audited.

Root Cause? Well, I wasn't there when this all happened so it wouldn't be fair of me to speculate (out loud, at least :notme: )

Dear All,

Thanks for the feedback. It was usefull to myself and also the organization. anyway for the correction that we do is we audit the night shift and for future audit we schedule it which this time we include all shift.

Mazura

Sounds corrective and preventive to me as well as covering the requirement

In regards to the Original Poster, how is this...

Correction : Audit night shift.

Corrective Action : Develop the next schedule detailing all shifts and when they will be audited.

Root Cause? Well, I wasn't there when this all happened so it wouldn't be fair of me to speculate (out loud, at least :notme: )

Yeah, I think so.

Not sure if I need to start a new thread. We are going for our ISO TS but have not done any audits on other shifts (we run 24/7). 2 questions:

1) Will or should the CB check on this requirement being met during the phase 1 readiness review?

2) Part of the requirements state 12 months of process audits, should these be to the TS 16949 requirements?

Not sure if I need to start a new thread. We are going for our ISO TS but have not done any audits on other shifts (we run 24/7). 2 questions:

1) Will or should the CB check on this requirement being met during the phase 1 readiness review?

2) Part of the requirements state 12 months of process audits, should these be to the TS 16949 requirements?

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

If your shifts follow a rotation pattern, you could try to say you audit "all shifts" when they come to days.

This meets the letter of the law but of courses misses the intent.