Hello everyone!!!

This is my first time as a poster so please be gentle with me!

I work for a medium sized company in the UK (70 people). I have recently been promoted to the role of Quality Manager/Management Representative/Internal Auditor of an already accredited to ISO 9001:2000; Last september our accreditation was extended for another year, however we have our 3 year renewal audit this september, and i am worried already. The company has had an external quality consultant, who was a great help to me at the last audit.
The Managing Director, in his infinite wisdom has decided we no longer need the external consultants and expects me to conduct the audits. Now, i have no problem with conducting the audits as even though i am inexperienced i have so far enjoyed any audits i have undertaken. However as i am in control of the quality system documents, i feel it would be a conflict of interest to audit this.
Am I correct?
I really enjoy my role within the company, but would welcome any ideas to promote the system throughout the company.
Now my major concern is that the Managing Director has an immediate member of his family instilled as the production manager. This leads to some conflict between us. for example a recent conversation went as thus:-
"We have spent money manufacturing that product i want to send it to the customer" Him
" Its not correct and they have mentioned the problem before, we shouldn`t send it" Me
" I pay your wages! you send it!" Him
This is generally how things work and rather than deal with instances of non conformance he would rather send inferior product to our customer
Can i continue in my role with:-
A. A production manager who has no concept of wht quality means
B. No outside consultancy helping keep the integrity of the system
I have loads more issues but i think 2 at a time is best,
Please help

Welcome, Barrytwn. There are plenty of people here who feel your pain, believe me. First, a bit of housekeeping: your QMS is registered, or certified, but not accredited (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/iso9000-14000/certification/publicizing/publicizing_6.html). Thanks to Sidney Vianna for the link from an earlier thread.

Now, as to your predicament. There is little that you will likely be able to do to change the situation. If someone with the authority to do so wants to ship nonconforming product over your objections, then it'll be done. I doubt that the presence of a consultant would help matters much. If you haven't done so already, you might want to discuss the situation with the MD, but you should do so with the understanding that it might well backfire on you. I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but updating your CV might not be a bad idea at this point, unless you think you can put up with it where you are.

Once upon a time, a Quality Manager found themsilves in a similar situation to yours. At the arrival of the third party auditor, the QM directed the auditor to the evidence that things were being shipped non-conforming, etc. etc. Of course, the auditor had no alternative but to issue a major non-conformity, which started the certificate suspension process, and a follow-up visit was scheduled for 3 months hence.

When that day arrived, the auditor was met by a grinning QM. The auditor asked if corrective action had been taken? Indeed, replied the QM, they fired the Production manager for knowingly shipping problems to the customer, which not only jeopardised their certification, but had caused significant 'poor quality' costs (warranty, expedited replacements etc.)

Now, could you repeat this story................?;) :notme:

Andy

Once upon a time, a Quality Manager found themsilves in a similar situation to yours.

Now, could you repeat this story................?;) :notme:

Andy

I hate to say it but, I have repeated this story. It took the Auditor issuing a major CAR, for my company to realize that adhereing to the guidlines of ISO and our QMS was important. No matter how hard I tried they wouldn't listen to me. I don't condone this method, but from my experience thats what it took.

Can i continue in my role with:-
A. A production manager who has no concept of wht quality means
B. No outside consultancy helping keep the integrity of the system
I have loads more issues but i think 2 at a time is best,
Please help

A hearty welcome to you.:bigwave:

Now that I've been a nice guy I'll separate some of the wheat from the chaff.

Unless your production manager actually has a need to know what quality means, who really cares? Is he competent within his roles, and responsibilities within your system and does he understand what his authority is? Now some may think my thinking to be a bit obtuse, but if there is no need for him to even understand how to spell quality it is a non-issue. Does he know his job and its requirements? If so, fine. If not, its his problem and whoever he's been sleeping or eating out of the same trough with to worry about.

As to the piece about the consultant....If you guys have needed this guy to "maintain the integrity of the system", your system is a sham and in fact it's not yours, it's his.

Unless you've taken some kind of blood oath or promised your 1st born male child to these people a good option may be to jump like a rat off a sinking ship before you and your reputation become tarnished. (I am not implying that you are a rat).

Let these folks have some fun with the recertification and seek the coin of the realm elsewhere.

Thank you all for the answers, which i think i may already have known.

When i was said" to the integrity of the system " i was refering to the fact that i am being asked to audit things over which i have control. Is that ok or should i insist on the external consultants, auditing what i control.

I am ok with pointing out my failings but would an auditor see it that way?

" i was refering to the fact that i am being asked to audit things over which i have control. Is that ok or should i insist on the external consultants, auditing what i control.

Could you get one of the head of departments from say - HR or sales/marketing to audit the QMR portion of your work? If he is inexperienced you could assist him in the preparation by drafting the basic audit questionnaires which ultimately serves as a guide during the audit. There should not be a conflict of interest then!

In the long run you need to train a team of auditors anyway and with 70 strong, there shouldn't be a problem to find the few.

Regards.

Welcome to the Cove, Barrytwn :bigwave: There are plenty of people here who feel your pain, believe me.Quite so. I sometimes believe that most of us have experienced similar situations, albeit to a varying extent.

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but updating your CV might not be a bad idea at this point, unless you think you can put up with it where you are.I concur. Not only will it be nigh on impossible for you to change the current state of affairs: If one of those nice little shipments blows up, it could very well blow up in your face in spite of the fact that you tried to stop it. Scrapegoat anyone?

Once upon a time, a Quality Manager found ...
Ah... There is that possibility, yes, but that method is hideously dangerous. I would be loath to recommend it even as a last resort. In a worst case scenario one could end up unemployed, with a reputation as a whistleblower to boot.

/Claes

Yes, a lot of us have had similar experiences. The "eternal" conflict between QA/QC and production have driven a lot of devoted QA persons out of the proffession. I could not help but notice that our ever diplomatic Randy states that production managers need not know didley about quality... I beg to differ! Managers who know #%"& about quality and couldn't care less eventually cost a company money, employees and competencies. Stupidity is an expensive competency in a production manager - and usually it tends to be a trait that top management share.

Anyways, back to the subject at hand. My personal belief is that external audit (and internal) should be an objective statement about the efficiency of a QMS. So, I personally never prepare for an audit. If I/we receive 1, 5 or for that matter 20 NC´s, then it should be a picture of the state of the QMS and the in house respect for the system. If management want's to blame that on me, then in some respect they may be right - perhaps I have not been good enough at my job. But, to blame it all on me would normally be stupid, unless they were all related to my specific area of expertise, and I were fully to blame. If you get a lot of NC´s then top management should seriously look at why these NC´s occurred and what to do to remedy them (a bit of root cause analysis :) ). If you back out now you will be the scapegoat, mark my words. If you stay, and fight, and keep the part of the QMS that you are responsible for spotless, then you may still be out of a job by the end of the audit, but no one will be able to blame you as much.