1. A middle manager calling a senior manager an "evil bastard" in front of an hourly person that is not in said senior manager's department.
2. 'Victim' senior manager evesdropping on the person who made the comment.

Second question:
I can handle situation 1 as this guy reports to me.
But how do you go about fighting a chronic evesdropper that does not report to you AND can do very little wrong in the eyes of the owner?

:frust:

(Personally I think evesdropping is far far far more unprofessional.)

Usually given enough rope, people will hang themselves…….

IMO #1 will cause the most problems with motivation and morale. #2 it depends on what s/he does with what they overheard. Leadership by example.

If the senior manager constantly eves drops on everyone and then the middle manager snapped at him the senior manager in my opinion deserved it its a invasion of privacy. :)

Dimitri

Slip #2 a verbal "mickey" ... the rope so to speak.

Doesn't what the senior manager does with the "evil bastard" comment prove or disprove the assertion?

I think maybe this would be better answered in context....

I totally understand your frustration. One really needs to watch what they say.

Since I can only infer from your thread my opinion, I would have to say #1 is by far the most unprofessional. You are on the same team, and that type of discussion is inflammatory and destructive. No one likes being called names, and for those in the Office Politics (busybodies), that is just fuel for a fire.

If the person is going to eavesdrop, give them something good to spread around. I bet that will stop that behavior rather quickly.

here's the context...

Employee was upset that the machines were smoking and the scrubbers weren't keeping up. He wanted to open the doors to let in some fresh air but 'senior manager' wouldn't let him. So he came to 'middle manager', who is the safety guy. Employee was threatening to call OSHA and/or just quit.
'Middle Manager' brought employee to his office to hear him out and defuse the situation. During the course of the discussion employee asked "why won't 'senior manager' let us crack the doors? It's not cold out." To which 'middle manager answered "I don't know, he's an evil bastard."

Unbeknownst to either of them 'senior manager' was standing outside the office door listeneing. There is no other reason for him to stand where he was. The ladies room door is across the hall.

Senior manager ran to owner.

Also understand - 'Senior manager' hates 'middle manager'. This is a fact. I've heard him say it myself.

further thoughts?

This just maybe the worse advice you'll get on this thread as I've never been in a management position BUT if I was the owner of a company and this thing happend the Sr. Manager would get the boot.

If a hourly employee wants freash air because of the smoke etc and its not cold outside (which maybe considered a hazard because you can get sick) and the scrubbers arn't working right to remove the smoke the employee in my opinion if he asked the Sr. Manager to open the door then the Sr. Manager only had one thing to say "yes". It should have never got to the point of the Employee having the need to threaten to call OSHA and get the middle manager invovled. :)

Still I feel that the Middle Manager is in the right for calling the Sr. Manager that. I mean what kind of person denies someone freash air if they are working in a smoke filled enviroment ?? :mg:

Also if the Sr. Manager is going around telling people he "hates" (which is a really strong word to use) another manager I don't know about any of you but I think he'd need a talking to to find out why he "hates" the middle manager.

Just my :2cents:

Dimitri

Both instances are of course unprofessional and childish. First, the senior manager sounds like a micro-manager. The issue should have been brought to the safety officer/middle manager first, if that manager felt the decision needed to be with the senior manager then he/she could have taken it to them.

Further, if there is a personal issue between the two managers this needs to be difused. You can't have your management acting like feuding children, it's ridiculous and will vastly undermine their positional authority with employees. If they continue on this route they will become a source of entertainment for their employees and in effect an ongoing joke.

Is one instance more unprofessional than the other, no, they are both equally unacceptable and the kind of behavior I would expect to see in elementary school children. I'd have to surmise that the owner is thinking along these lines as well.

unprofessional is unprofessional. it appears that some conflict management/resolution skills could be taught. This looks like a case where someone is going to lose a job if things keep going the way they are.:(

unprofessional is unprofessional. it appears that some conflict management/resolution skills could be taught. This looks like a case where someone is going to lose a job if things keep going the way they are.:(

General impression among many people is that 'senior manager' is out to get 'middle manager'.

'middle manager' works for me, not him. This is where I get drawn in.

Further, if there is a personal issue between the two managers this needs to be difused. You can't have your management acting like feuding children, it's ridiculous and will vastly undermine their positional authority with employees. If they continue on this route they will become a source of entertainment for their employees and in effect an ongoing joke.




there's a rub.

middle manager is well liked by the hourly people and is seen as their advocate in many cases.

senior manager is disliked by many and is seen as aloof and uncaring about people, only really caring about production.

So, Dis, can you recommend conflict resolution classes as a leadership development tool for all management layers? No management personnel should ever talk that way about any other in front of hourly personnel.

As for one manager being out to get another, it is sad, but true, this often happens. Usually, as someone said earlier, this will come back to bite the person who is "out to get" someone. He will become someone nobody trusts and eventually shoot himself in the foot. BUT, before that happens, if he is potentially a valuable employee, wouldn't it be great to pull him back into line? Can someone talk to this manager's boss? Does the boss already know what is going on and giving some sort of unspoken approval by his lack of action?

Once the hourly employees start to threaten bringing in outside agencies, you've got a potentially BAD situation on your hands. Somebody there has got to have the right kind of responsibility and authority to clear this mess up. If not, the company is is in jeopardy.

Good topic, thanks Dis.

If there is a health/safety issue, that needs to be addressed ASAP. You could have someone suing the company. At the very least, your direct report will start missing work, and you don't need that.

1. A middle manager calling a senior manager an "evil bastard" in front of an hourly person that is not in said senior manager's department.

It's only unprofessional if the senior manager isn't an evil bastard. If he is one, chance are that the hourly person is well aware, and the only effect the comment is likely to have is to make the hourly worker feel like he's not alone.

2. 'Victim' senior manager evesdropping on the person who made the comment.

Eavesdropping how? It's not a good thing in any event, but there's a big difference between say, wiretapping and standing outside someone's office door and listening.

Second question:
I can handle situation 1 as this guy reports to me. Which guy reports to you?

But how do you go about fighting a chronic evesdropper that does not report to you AND can do very little wrong in the eyes of the owner? At some point when you know it's happening (and assuming the offender is in proximity) stop your conversation and go to the offender and say, "Why don't you join us? You seem to be interested in the conversation."

So, Dis, can you recommend conflict resolution classes as a leadership development tool for all management layers? No management personnel should ever talk that way about any other in front of hourly personnel.

As for one manager being out to get another, it is sad, but true, this often happens. Usually, as someone said earlier, this will come back to bite the person who is "out to get" someone. He will become someone nobody trusts and eventually shoot himself in the foot. BUT, before that happens, if he is potentially a valuable employee, wouldn't it be great to pull him back into line? Can someone talk to this manager's boss? Does the boss already know what is going on and giving some sort of unspoken approval by his lack of action?

Once the hourly employees start to threaten bringing in outside agencies, you've got a potentially BAD situation on your hands. Somebody there has got to have the right kind of responsibility and authority to clear this mess up. If not, the company is is in jeopardy.

I agree that 'middle manager' was out of line. So I have no problem disciplinging him from that standpoint.

Lack of action is key. The owner does not like dealing with conflict so whoever is loudest usually gets heard. And 'senior manager' has been here since day 1.

It's only unprofessional if the senior manager isn't an evil bastard. If he is one, chance are that the hourly person is well aware, and the only effect the comment is likely to have is to make the hourly worker feel like he's not alone.

Evil is pretty strong, but my personal feelings about the guy are that he's OK but he is a fascist in the true sense of the word....All for the company, the individual is meaningless, if you disagree with the company you should be fired. But the general feeling among hourly people is that he is an a__hole.

Eavesdropping how? It's not a good thing in any event, but there's a big difference between say, wiretapping and standing outside someone's office door and listening.
standing outside of offices and listening in. Paging on the phone intercom and listening to what's going on.

Second question:
Which guy reports to you?

Middle Manager works for me

At some point when you know it's happening (and assuming the offender is in proximity) stop your conversation and go to the offender and say, "Why don't you join us? You seem to be interested in the conversation."
Been trying to do this...

Been trying to do this...
get one of those mirrors they use to watch for shoplifters and put it in plain sight .... pretty soon yours will be the only office that people will come to for confindential meetings and venting sessions.;)

I don't think members of management should talk bad about one another either in front of or directly to hourly employees. It never works out for the best.
Hourly employees should be led to believe that the management works together to provide them with the best working environment possible.
There will always be clashes between middle and upper management, but the relationship between managers should always be kept professional in front of subordinates.
Yes, eavesdropping is a little unprofessional, but hourly employees always talk, and I am sure before the end of the work day it was probably well known throughout the hourly workforce that manager "A" called manager "B" an "evil bastard". No doubt by the end of the week it would get back to the senior manager anyway.

So, Dis, can you recommend conflict resolution classes as a leadership development tool for all management layers? No management personnel should ever talk that way about any other in front of hourly personnel.


Why not? Sometimes it can be a big relief for hourly people to know that they're not the only ones who can recognize the bloody obvious.

Why not? Sometimes it can be a big relief for hourly people to know that they're not the only ones who can recognize the bloody obvious.
There are better ways to let the hourly personnel know that they were right and a manager was wrong than calling him an evil bastard. Ways that will make you look like a bigger and better person than to resort to name calling. Management types are there to lead, leaders should always present the appropriate way to deal with problems. Name calling is never the appropriate way to deal with problems, therefore leaders should refrain from name calling.:2cents: The same goes for eavesdropping.

Evil is pretty strong, but my personal feelings about the guy are that he's OK but he is a fascist in the true sense of the word....All for the company, the individual is meaningless, if you disagree with the company you should be fired. But the general feeling among hourly people is that he is an a__hole.


standing outside of offices and listening in. Paging on the phone intercom and listening to what's going on.



Middle Manager works for me


Been trying to do this...
I understood from post 1 it was the middle manager who reported to you. My question is: "How did YOU become involved?"
(Did the boss to whom senior manager complained come to you requesting "discipline" for middle manager? Did the senior manager come to you? Did the boss chew out the middle manager, leaving you out of the loop and then middle manager 'fessed up? Were YOU eavesdropping, too? Did ANYONE address the "root cause" - smoking machines overpowering air scrubbers?)


:topic: My personal opinion - everyone should have ignored personalities and comments about personalities to address potential safety hazard of poor working environment with air pollution from smoking machines - why did they smoke? why was the air cleaner/changer inadequate?

Secondary, but important - would opening door create a security situation? (senior manager may have been right about door, but wrong in not explaining reason!)

I've joined this late (man this rolled fast), but my primary thought is that in these days of telephones that can record and take pictures, emails and blogs, and even this discussion board, you better act on the job as if everything you say may be overheard or even recorded.

So I'd say the person make the statement was "more unprofessional".

The walls have ears . . .

I'm trying to figure out what the problem is other than an organization that is failing provide a safe and healthy workplace when it comes to air quality and the management of psychosocial stressors.

Also is "evil bastard" a qualitative or quantitive measure of human and management performance?

In the context of use, is bastard a term of endearment or is there some inference towards parental relationship prior to birth?

There are better ways to let the hourly personnel know that they were right and a manager was wrong than calling him an evil bastard. Ways that will make you look like a bigger and better person than to resort to name calling. Management types are there to lead, leaders should always present the appropriate way to deal with problems. Name calling is never the appropriate way to deal with problems, therefore leaders should refrain from name calling.:2cents: The same goes for eavesdropping.

Just out of curiosity, and not to belabor the point, if, instead of "evil *@&&#" the guy had said, "Ernie is a stamp collector" and Ernie was indeed a stamp collector, would you consider that "name calling"?

Just out of curiosity, and not to belabor the point, if, instead of "evil *@&&#" the guy had said, "Ernie is a stamp collector" and Ernie was indeed a stamp collector, would you consider that "name calling"?It (stamp collector) would have been "fighting words" in the neighborhod where I learned the fine art of negotiating with folks who could clean my clock!

Based on my safety guy experience the smoke never gets worse than nuisance level. I suppose if all the scrubbers were shut down and all the machines were running hard it could get bad.
I've worked in worse that passed air sampling tests.

Open doors is not a security issue. They're usually open all day, 3 shifts much of the year.

I understood from post 1 it was the middle manager who reported to you. My question is: "How did YOU become involved?"
(Did the boss to whom senior manager complained come to you requesting "discipline" for middle manager? Did the senior manager come to you? Did the boss chew out the middle manager, leaving you out of the loop and then middle manager 'fessed up? Were YOU eavesdropping, too? Did ANYONE address the "root cause" - smoking machines overpowering air scrubbers?)


:topic: My personal opinion - everyone should have ignored personalities and comments about personalities to address potential safety hazard of poor working environment with air pollution from smoking machines - why did they smoke? why was the air cleaner/changer inadequate?

Secondary, but important - would opening door create a security situation? (senior manager may have been right about door, but wrong in not explaining reason!)


I was at a regional ASQ conference. Wasn't even in the building.
'senior manager' ran to my boss and tattled.
I got a phone call at the conference after my boss had chewed out my guy.
It blew up from there as 'senior manager' insisted that my guy be written up for every violation under the sun.
I get to hand him the disciplinary action.
that's how I got involved.

See my prior post - the smoke was really a non issue.
And when I got back to the office after the conference the doors were open and the scrubber was working.

Based on my safety guy experience the smoke never gets worse than nuisance level. I suppose if all the scrubbers were shut down and all the machines were running hard it could get bad.
I've worked in worse that passed air sampling tests.

Open doors is not a security issue. They're usually open all day, 3 shifts much of the year.

Air Sampling tests or not (which really are irralivant seeing as many people have breathing problems, asthma etc and any smoke in a enviroment can effect their breathing plus if the smoke is chemical based just because it "passes" the air testing doesn't mean its healthy) if the doors are normally opend most of the year on all 3 shifts anyways I've got to wonder why the Sr. Manager told the Hourly employee no to opening the door. Does he even know what goes on in the plant ?? :confused:

Dimitri

In the context of use, is bastard a term of endearment or is there some inference towards parental relationship prior to birth?

:lmao: :lmao:

Air Sampling tests or not (which really are irralivant seeing as many people have breathing problems, asthma etc and any smoke in a enviroment can effect their breathing plus if the smoke is chemical based just because it "passes" the air testing doesn't mean its healthy) if the doors are normally opend most of the year on all 3 shifts anyways I've got to wonder why the Sr. Manager told the Hourly employee no to opening the door. Does he even know what goes on in the plant ?? :confused:

Dimitri

He makes apparently arbitrary decisions like that.
If I was a psycholgist I'd say it's a power thing.

He makes apparently arbitrary decisions like that.
If I was a psycholgist I'd say it's a power thing.

Well then, it was mentioned giving someone enough rope...

I suspect that the line folks are either angry, if senior is lucky, or they are starting to laugh at the senior manager. If they are laughing, it may be just a matter of time. According to experience in certain shops I have been in, the practical jokes will soon commence, making it difficult for the person to function.

It may be time to keep one's head down...

Just out of curiosity, and not to belabor the point, if, instead of "evil *@&&#" the guy had said, "Ernie is a stamp collector" and Ernie was indeed a stamp collector, would you consider that "name calling"?

My point here, and I did have one, is that you can't make blanket declarations of lack of professionalism unless you're sure of the situation. In this case, viewing it from a distance, there are a couple of possibilities:


The guy really is evil, and everyone, including the guy's boss, is aware of it, but his peers on the hierarchical ladder ignore it.
There is something personal going on between two guys who don't like each other.In the second instance, I think it would indeed be unprofessional for one to speak disparagingly of the other in front of disinterested parties. What would constitute professionalism would be for one or both parties to realize that it was personal between them, and leave it at that, with neither trying to undermine the other for purely personal reasons.

On the other hand, in the first instance, I don't think there would be a breach of the vague laws of professionalism if one were to verbalize what everyone already knows. In fact, as I suggested earlier, I can visualize a situation where it might actually be helpful; it might help to bring hourly and salaried people closer together in the face of a common problem. In this sense, calling the evil #@#&@ an evil @#@# isn't much different from calling a stamp collector a stamp collector.

And 'senior manager' has been here since day 1.

This is really an important component of this situation. Without a doubt, he has and will always have the owner's ear - has very little to do with who screams the loudest. To the owner - it is personal - it's about trust.

I have enjoyed this thread, and the posts on it.

The solution, is that there may not be an easy solution. Many times bosses (to an extent, we all do this) develop blinders in regards to people close to them. They see some value in that person that many others cannot see. Too, they tend to disassociate whatever evil they may do (Cognitive Dissonance).

Until such time that the boss is willing to be a little more realistic in his/her view of this senior manager and their actions, everyone else will have to accept that fact and work around it.

Hopefully, working around that person is bearable. If it is not, then people may have to leave before the boss 'smells the coffee'.

Nothing ever good comes from name calling, and should be avoided at all times. No matter what degree the name/title may be true, all folks are human, and will react negatively should they feel the situation merits it. Insecurity may be one reaction; which may be fueling the evesdropping.

Sorry, did not mean to sound like Dr. Phil.:D But real situations like this is what drives Stress and frustration.

Personally you have to search for root cause.

Someone badmouthing someone else is probably derived from previous events...therefore it's a reaction.

Eavesdropping is a sign of:
insecurity
questionable ethics i.e. entrapment
malicious intent

Ipso facto...my vote is eavesdropping to be worse.

calling the evil #@#&@ an evil @#@# isn't much different from calling a stamp collector a stamp collector.


I think there is a big difference.
Calling someone who collects stamps a "stamp collector" is simply being desciptive, but even if someone does a lot of bad things, calling them an "evil bastard" is just unprofessional, especially in front of subordinates.
I have been in middle management in production in the past, and had situation where I was not particularly fond of some members of senior management.
I see no problem with letting your hourly employees know you understand their situation.
It is also OK, in my opinion, to let the hourly employees know that you do not necessarily agree with the decisions of upper management.
You do, however, have the responsibility to maintain a professional relationship with both the hourly employees and the senior management and that most certainly means NO name calling.

"Stamp Collector" is factual. A guy who collects stamps is a "Stamp Collector".

"Evil Bastard" is simply name calling on a kindergarden level. I guess the next time the Senior Manager should just reply with the "I'm rubber you're glue" defense.

Perhaps the Imus incident went right over your head, Jim? It is not ok to call people nappy headed hos, evil ba$tards, or red-headed beyotches at work. What you and your best friend do in the comfort of your living room in front of the tube is one thing, at work it is something else. Period. Your stamp collector comparison--- sorry, that dog don't hunt. Middle management calling upper management names in front of the hourly personnel is just not right. There are other ways to tell your subordinates that you are on their side.

Perhaps the Imus incident went right over your head, Jim? It is not ok to call people nappy headed hos, evil ba$tards, or red-headed beyotches at work.

Sorry, Steel, I don't see the connection between a flagrant instance of broadcast stupidity (the Imus thing), and saying, perhaps in passing, that an evil bast@rd is an evil bast@rd, when the fact is not in dispute. If yours is something other than an emotional reaction, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning. Simply saying that something is unprofessional doesn't explain anything.

What you and your best friend do in the comfort of your living room in front of the tube is one thing, at work it is something else. Period.
How would you limit personal discussions, then? Is speaking about anything unrelated to work unprofessional? Who is the arbiter who decides what constitutes unprofessional behavior? Isn't the idea that managers should not speak frankly with hourly workers, or should somehow speak differently to them than they speak to each other, a tad elitist?

Your stamp collector comparison--- sorry, that dog don't hunt.
It certainly gets closer to the prey than your Imus comparison.

Middle management calling upper management names in front of the hourly personnel is just not right. There are other ways to tell your subordinates that you are on their side.

Well, we just disagree on this. I think that the mask of "professionalism" is often used to disguise personal neuroses.

OK, let's look at the "Imus thing" and how it relates.

First, although his use of the "nappy yada yada" is abhorrent, where was the real damage (hurt and pain by some great ball players) caused? The frequent replaying and relaying of the comment by the news media and others who sought to gain from the "buzz".

Similarly, the senior manager's actions of making noise concerning the issue will hurt, not help, their reputation. Now, people who never would have heard about the comment will know about it, along with whatever spin the gossip mongers (news mongers?) wish to impart.

So, both the manager who uttered the "sick" remark, and the one about whom the remark was made were wrong, it appears. The real damage will likely not be caused by these actions on their own. No, the resultant "buzz", and the resultant discord, will cause the real damage.

Professionalism sometimes means knowing when to shut the heck up.

Personally you have to search for root cause.

Someone badmouthing someone else is probably derived from previous events...therefore it's a reaction.

Eavesdropping is a sign of:
insecurity
questionable ethics i.e. entrapment
malicious intent

Ipso facto...my vote is eavesdropping to be worse.

It's impossible for me to communicate all the stuff really involved here so I've only been able to give a snapshot and make it black and white as possible...
The comment did come from past events. The evil bastich has had it in for my guy since well before I started here. Thus I very strongly feel that the evesdropping was not innocent and therefore far worse.

OK, let's look at the "Imus thing" and how it relates.

First, although his use of the "nappy yada yada" is abhorrent, where was the real damage (hurt and pain by some great ball players) caused? The frequent replaying and relaying of the comment by the news media and others who sought to gain from the "buzz".

Similarly, the senior manager's actions of making noise concerning the issue will hurt, not help, their reputation. Now, people who never would have heard about the comment will know about it, along with whatever spin the gossip mongers (news mongers?) wish to impart.

So, both the manager who uttered the "sick" remark, and the one about whom the remark was made were wrong, it appears. The real damage will likely not be caused by these actions on their own. No, the resultant "buzz", and the resultant discord, will cause the real damage.

Professionalism sometimes means knowing when to shut the heck up.


"discord"
Great word! :agree1:

He makes apparently arbitrary decisions like that.
If I was a psycholgist I'd say it's a power thing.

See perhaps its time to tighten his leash by the boss, if the boss doesn't do that then who knows where this will go.

By the way I got to agree with this comment by Jim Wayne:

It's only unprofessional if the senior manager isn't an evil bastard. If he is one, chance are that the hourly person is well aware, and the only effect the comment is likely to have is to make the hourly worker feel like he's not alone.

:)

Dimitri

OK, let's look at the "Imus thing" and how it relates.

First, although his use of the "nappy yada yada" is abhorrent, where was the real damage (hurt and pain by some great ball players) caused?



Don't you realize that we now live in a "kindler, gentler" world? The old saying, "Sticks and stones may break my bones......." no longer applies.

Please get with the program and learn to conform......:whip:

Wayne

Don't you realize that we now live in a "kindler, gentler" world? The old saying, "Sticks and stones may break my bones......." no longer applies.

Please get with the program and learn to conform......:whip:

Wayne

Wayne,

Well I cant speak for everyone but I'm 19, and I still havn't gotten with the program. Apparently men being able to take things like a man doesnt apply anymore. Who knew. :bonk:

Dimitri

OK, let's look at the "Imus thing" and how it relates.

First, although his use of the "nappy yada yada" is abhorrent, where was the real damage (hurt and pain by some great ball players) caused? The frequent replaying and relaying of the comment by the news media and others who sought to gain from the "buzz".

Similarly, the senior manager's actions of making noise concerning the issue will hurt, not help, their reputation. Now, people who never would have heard about the comment will know about it, along with whatever spin the gossip mongers (news mongers?) wish to impart.

So, both the manager who uttered the "sick" remark, and the one about whom the remark was made were wrong, it appears. The real damage will likely not be caused by these actions on their own. No, the resultant "buzz", and the resultant discord, will cause the real damage.

Professionalism sometimes means knowing when to shut the heck up.

Craig, your argument assumes its own conclusion. There's nothing in evidence to indicate that in the case at hand the utterance was broadcast throughout the company, let alone to millions of people in its initial form. While you might have a good hypothetical case, and while it might not be a good idea to say disparaging things about others in a general sense, the analogy is lame and inappropriate.

Craig, your argument assumes its own conclusion. There's nothing in evidence to indicate that in the case at hand the utterance was broadcast throughout the company, let alone to millions of people in its initial form. While you might have a good hypothetical case, and while it might not be a good idea to say disparaging things about others in a general sense, the analogy is lame and inappropriate.

Jim, you have missed my point - the biggest harm comes as a result of how the situation is handled. Further, an utterance does not have to leave a company to cause irreparable harm to that company. If the situation has not been spread within the company, maybe you might have a point. The places I have worked would have seen this spread quite quickly.

Lame and inappropriate? No, strong and on topic.

Asking which is more unprofessional, at this point, is hypothetical. The damage done by the grapevine can be quite real and painful. Maybe you have been spared seeing this kind of situation first hand?

Craig, your argument assumes its own conclusion. There's nothing in evidence to indicate that in the case at hand the utterance was broadcast throughout the company, let alone to millions of people in its initial form. While you might have a good hypothetical case, and while it might not be a good idea to say disparaging things about others in a general sense, the analogy is lame and inappropriate.


To my knowledge only 3 people heard the comment. My guy uttered it, the guy he was talking to heard it, the eavesdropper heard it, and another guy in the office heard it because he was observing the conversation.

To me the difference between calling someone an 'evil bastard' and a 'nappy headed ho' is that 'evil bastard' is behavior based while 'nappy headed ho' is genetics based.
behavior is a choice, genetics is not.

To my knowledge only 3 people heard the comment. My guy uttered it, the guy he was talking to heard it, the eavesdropper heard it, and another guy in the office heard it because he was observing the conversation.

Has anyone else ever been in production management?
I would all but guarantee that before the end of the shift at least half of the hourly workforce knew about "Middle Manager" calling "Senior Manager" an "Evil Bastard".
There may have only been 3 people who heard this comment first hand, but there is a significant probability that they were not the only 3 people who knew about it. BTW I count 4 people, unless the person who uttered the slur is deaf, he heard it too.

Has anyone else ever been in production management?
I would all but guarantee that before the end of the shift at least half of the hourly workforce knew about "Middle Manager" calling "Senior Manager" an "Evil Bastard".
There may have only been 3 people who heard this comment first hand, but there is a significant probability that they were not the only 3 people who knew about it. BTW I count 4 people, unless the person who uttered the slur is deaf, he heard it too.

Thanks. I was beginning to wonder if anyone else was in the "real world".

I know I will probably be beat up for this but I say who cares. The Senior Manager and Middle manager are playing games like little children. It appears that there has been no harm or foul committed. Is it wrong to call some an “Evil Bastard”, sure, is it wrong to eaves drop, sure. Did anyone get hurt no, so move on and grow up. I guess this will teach the Middle Manager that you should not say things like that about the people you work with even if that is how you really feel.

Has anyone else ever been in production management?
I would all but guarantee that before the end of the shift at least half of the hourly workforce knew about "Middle Manager" calling "Senior Manager" an "Evil Bastard".
There may have only been 3 people who heard this comment first hand, but there is a significant probability that they were not the only 3 people who knew about it. BTW I count 4 people, unless the person who uttered the slur is deaf, he heard it too.

absolutely. It was all over the place before I got back to the office from my seminar.

What I didn't really explain in this particular case (trying to keep it was black & white as possible) is that 'senior manager' is pretty well perceived as (insert epithet here) anyway throught the company.
So in this case it's a mitigating factor in favor of my guy, he was stating what is already common knowledge.... so Jim is not off the mark here.

There may have only been 3 people who heard this comment first hand, but there is a significant probability that they were not the only 3 people who knew about it. BTW I count 4 people, unless the person who uttered the slur is deaf, he heard it too.


3 heard, 1 uttered.

4 people were involved.

Does that work better for you?

Well,
How has your situation evolved over the last couple of days?

Just curious to know how everything turned out.

Well,
How has your situation evolved over the last couple of days?

Just curious to know how everything turned out.

my guy got a write up which is really pretty meaningless.
The 'senior manager' was lingering outside the conference door while I gave it to him. :rolleyes:

Nothing will change in the short term.
The petty, childish BS will continue and I will continue to try to positively change the culture by slowly teaching leadership principals to senior management. There is a serious case of confusing leadership with management here.

'Senior manager' hates 'middle manager'. This is a fact. I've heard him say it myself.

further thoughts?

Eavesdropper!!:lol:

Eavesdropper!!:lol:
LMAO :lol: :lol: