I am a quality and environmental management system consultant. Currently I am changing the structure of my company. I have a client, that I have had since July 2005. When I made the agreement to work as a contractor for this client, I did so through another company as their contractor.

Well needless to say this client, 21 months later, is a problem. I have had clients that are slow on implementation, but this client is worse than ever I have worked for or heard of. They have had turtle diagrams, pfc's, sop's, eop's, epg's and their manual to review and revise accordingly since January of this year. I email them continuously for feedback on these reviews so that final revisions can be made and implementation begin. It is futile. They have me contacting a Quality "clerk" who is nothing more than a document control person and she holds documents instead of distributing them for review. The Quality Manager blows my questions and inquiries off until I have hounded him relentlessly for the answer.

Long story short. This project is no where near complete and when I made the agreement to take this contract, I quoted it based on an 18 months to develop, implement and prepare for registration.

How do I get out of this nightmare? The company that hired me as a contractor did not put any language in the agreement on time limitations for this project.

The money for this project is about gone, due to length between reviews and ongoing revisions to revisions.

I want to move on with new projects, but this one is holding me back from making certain commitments.

Any suggestions?

:thanx:

How did (do) you track progress? How often did (do) you update upper management on progress? Did you identify road blocks as your project proceeded? How many times did you warn upper management of time frame problems?

Just a few thoughts...

I have kept an ongoing (continuously revised) QMS/EMS Plan, showing their responsibilities, timelines and status. I have documented all of my correspondence, which have been weekly, and saved all my emails and have gone on-site when possible to meet with management. They give lip service about commitment and that goes by the way-side as soon as I leave. My attempts to keep it "out front" for everyone don't seem to work. I also keep the company that contracted me abreast on every correspondence. Their answer is "Thanks for sticking with it". ???

If it's taken this amount of time they're probably too dumb to ever do it. This isn't rocket science, I know because I helped some rocket scientists in California get their management systems up and running and it only took 6 months with a company of about 1,400 PhD's.

Identify where they have met whatever, show them and congradulate them for their hard work. Tell them to let things run 6 months without your help before they go for registration (if that's their goal) and let them stand on their own feet. Let the lack of success be theirs, not yours.

Wash your hands, declare victory, stand up, hook up and shuffle to the door, jump right out and count to four. And don't look back.

They aren't too dumb. They just aren't interested. I have to get them to a point that they have agreed (approved) all of their documents I have developed and then I can set them free to implement. My problem is getting them to review with accuracy the documents I have developed for them based on their operations. Once I get that portion done, it is up to them to implement and run their six months to see if the system is effective.

They aren't committed. I am tired of patting them on the back, playing politics and getting the shuffle.

In my past 25 years of experience, I have never had it take this long to get a program developed, implemented and registered.

I just don't want to be looking at a lawsuit up the road, but definitely want to drop this project.

Thanks for you input Randy.

BTW: You do a good job of putting details in your posts. Nice writing!

IMO, this boils down to a contract law. A legal contract has an exchange between the buyer and the seller, and a timeframe for it to occur. If it does not have that, it's not a legal contract. Even marriage agreements have expiration dates (death).

Did you have an agreement with the organization you were contracting through? Anything on the purchase order?

IMO, this has to stop; it will drive you crazy. I would sit down with the client and contracting company and develop a drop-dead time frame.

The only caveat I would submit is to be careful how handling this situation would handle your future business. I'm not sure about your specific scenario, and don't know if 'dumping' this would cause you more heartache than you anticipated.

Number one as I see it is once the consultant "develops the documentation" you have set the company up for learned helplessness. I know that there are many consultants out there that hand over a complete and documented QMS and then the customer follows it. It is obvious that this company is not capable of the implementation of said documentation. You either need to tell them that you have fulfilled your end of the bargain and the contract is up, or you need to renegotiate exactly what is expected by them and by you. If you truly feel that they are capable of implementing and maintaining the system, you need to make sure that the management supplies the resources. Otherwise, I'd vote for cut and run.

They aren't too dumb.
Just how dumb are they?:lol:

They just aren't interested.
It's because it's not their's.

My problem is getting them to review with accuracy the documents I have developed for them based on their operations.
Noooooooo, it's their problem. All you can do is give them what they need and pay for.

Once I get that portion done, it is up to them to implement and run their six months to see if the system is effective.
This one you got right. So let them do it and quit mothering them.


I just don't want to be looking at a lawsuit up the road, but definitely want to drop this project.
Review your deliverables and their obligations. If you've met your end what's the problem? You didn't make a promise that you couldn't or didn't deliver did you?

You have provided answers to your question.

It's your system, your documents, and your work, not theirs. There is no sense of ownership of the process and therefore no personal value placed in it. These folks need to be weaned. If they are not committed it's their problem and not yours. Sometimes committment can only come after the lack of it has bitten one in the shorts.

Number one as I see it is once the consultant "develops the documentation" you have set the company up for learned helplessness.

Very well put. :agree1: If I ever have my own consulting company, I'm going to call it LH Associates, but I'll never tell customers what the "LH" stands for. :lol:

The scope of work included leading the project team in the development, implementation and registration processes, as project manager. Problem is that the "experienced project team" that was to be available for this project doesn't exist. Two reasons: 1. Management doesn't want to establish a "team" of cross-functional members and 2. The "experienced" quality professionals in this company are entry level at best.

Therefore, I wrote their system, based on what they said they do and how they do it. It is not a templated program. I do "customer-specific" programs. This is a new prototype process for the auto industry, therefore, it has to be specific in content.

I get Randy's comments........stop mothering, and let them..... I agree...but the company that contracted me insists I see this through the registration process. I am a grandmother of 8, at this rate, I will be a great-grandmother before they are ready for registration.

My intent was to finish all documentation and hand the system to them for implementation and just sit back until they call me. I just don't want this hanging over my head, pending completion, a year from now or longer.

One of my many talents is as a specialist in business contract law and litigation. I ain't no lawyer by any means, I'm one of those guys that can tell the lawyer what he needs to know and where to look.

The scope of work included leading the project team in the development, implementation and registration processes, as project manager. Problem is that the "experienced project team" that was to be available for this project doesn't exist. Two reasons: 1. Management doesn't want to establish a "team" of cross-functional members and 2. The "experienced" quality professionals in this company are entry level at best.
Then they have failed to fulfill their end of the contract and that in itself can make the contract null and void. They made an offer specifying certain stipulations and conditions on their part and you agreed to it. As long as you met your end the spirit is satisfied and they are the ones in default. You may actually have recourse for potential damage to your reputation due to their lack of effort to aid you in the commission you were given.

Pretty good huh?
Therefore, I wrote their system, based on what they said they do and how they do it.
Do they really know what they do, or do they think they know what they do? If they are still changing after nearly 2 years, they're guessing.


I am a grandmother of 8, at this rate, I will be a great-grandmother before they are ready for registration.
I am a Grandfather of 14 and will be a Great-Grandfather later this year...gotcha beat on that one.
My intent was to finish all documentation and hand the system to them for implementation and just sit back until they call me. I just don't want this hanging over my head, pending completion, a year from now or longer.

Stand back and look objectively at the body of work. Has it actually been done and now you're caught up in the spring cleaning mode? If you had held on to your kids like this they would still be falling down busting their butts instead of having kids of their own.

If you've done the job, you've done the job. Just flat out tell them that getting the registration is their job, they have to pass the audit, not you, and you cannot guarantee the outcome. Let them know that without deviation that they cannot and will not achieve their goal under the present conditions.

Better yet have 'em email me and I'll shock their sensitivities. I know you can't do that, but it would be fun:naughty:

What were the original contract specifications? Firm Fixed Price? Pay by the hour? Was there a cap on the hours (sounds like so by the earlier writeups).

If there was a cap on total hours, I'd be honest with the client. I'd state - we're coming to the end of the hours and money you authorized. This is what we have accomplished so far. I've responded to your requests, and you will need more time and effort to get to the end point. If they question this, I'd state the initial assumptions made about what their piece of the puzzle was to be.

Then close with - I believe you can carry forward on your own at this point. Or, if you don't agree, are you willing to authorize more money?

Wow. Thanks alot everyone. I started out with this thing eating at me today and with all of your help have come to the following conclusion:

A. Yes, Randy I have given them the deliverables as defined in the QMS/EMS Plan that they approved. No they have not kept there end of the deal up with their lack of cooperaiton.

B. Steve and Randy are right. After looking at all the details of this project and all of the steps taken over the past 21 months on my part, this project is failing because they are not taking ownership. This is their problem not mine.

C. It is time to recap, again, formally, again, the status of this project and let them know the monies for this project are running out. Therefore, they must take ownership of the remaining portions of this project, and I will assist going forward on an item by item basis billed hourly.

Hopefully they will take the ball and run with it.

The program is user friendly and the ease of implementation should be about complete, as the program was written beginning with the actual manufacturing process design through validation.

Thanks to all that took the time to help me make a hard decision. Hope I can provide the same support to others in these forums.

We are a strange breed.

:thanks:

If you've done the job, you've done the job. Just flat out tell them that getting the registration is their job, they have to pass the audit, not you, and you cannot guarantee the outcome. Let them know that without deviation that they cannot and will not achieve their goal under the present conditions.

Better yet have 'em email me and I'll shock their sensitivities. I know you can't do that, but it would be fun:naughty:

Great thought there Randy!!!!!!

I was faced with a similar situation while consulting for a company that needed to become registered to TS16949. I didn't beg, cajole or extend anything other than a well-deserved corrective action. We do know those CARs require root cause analysis --- and here was the jist of the CAR... names of the organization have been removed.

Nonconformace -- 6.2.2 "shall be competent based on appropriate education, training, skills.."

Objective evidence --No objective evidence exists that Plant Management understands or has been trained in the requirements of TS16949 pertaining to their management- or department-specific requirements. No records of training exist, multiple major NCRs in production exist, tasks from the Director of Quality have not been implemented, timelines reported on the task list as completed do not accurately reflect the current state observed during this internal audit and customer specific requirements for production are not known or readily accessible.

Now that one was a major nonconformance issued to Top Management. It's one thing to identify the problem, it's another thing to address the actions required to the appropriate person who is responsible for implementing them.

This was presented to Top Mgmt during a closing meeting --- there was a choice to be made, close the NCR, get your people on the same page and "git er done".

Needless to say, 3 months after completion of this internal audit, a second audit was performed prior to the readiness review from this company's registrar. Although there were still NCRs, the organization DID receive a recommendation for registration at the stage 2 audit.

Hope this helps.

It is of course very easy for me to sit here on my fat and happy, but I've worn the shoes myself and walked the mile as well.

Good luck.


Oh yeah...Hi Ann, see you in a few days.

Now that one was a major nonconformance issued to Top Management. It's one thing to identify the problem, it's another thing to address the actions required to the appropriate person who is responsible for implementing them.:applause: Brilliant. If more quality professionals had the guts to keep management accountable, we would have less certificates and more quality around.
On the flip side, we also could have more unemployed quality professionals.:tg:

It is quite a challenge that most consultants face even in East Africa. Lack of ownership of the project and this makes progress very difficult. It would be good if you let them drive the process and you provide direction. It would help in them taking ownership. With lack of ownership the system developed does not add value