Hello all covers and quality guru's!

Gud day to you all!
Our management is with this consultants for almost over 2 - 3 years now and still our management is not seeing progress, that I would say! Upon my employment here, I have started things or started to clarify the things for them. I know that this consultant is good but i believe the company is lagging so much behind this certification. As i have posted on my posts before, the GM insist he will be the QMR, and he do; he is reviewing the documents that I have prepared applicable to the system, along with the nominated ISO team. Project Managers , they are the four big people of the company. I know this is good, and I believe the company is progressing.
But finally, the management has decided to have a consultant for this ISO project to act as mediator and to clarify things. Because if i am the one who is telling that this and this should be done they tend to hesitate the idea and every meeting, I can say we are dicussing in a high temperature tones but eventually seized down after the meeting. Well, to avoid this I have suggested to go for another consultants coz as I've told you our consultant before is making communications only once in a blue moon. ( whew! i guess this is a long intro...:D ).
My question is , how much does a consultant really have to be paid. We have 100 - 120 owned employees, about plus 500 contrated from other companies, and about 30 people to be directly involved in the implementation.We have prepared the manual already, and some supporting documents.All we need is the fine tuning and the expedite implementation of this project. Just a picture how much as of today's trend!
Thanks in advance covers!!!!!

Jerzki:bigwave:

First, let us know which country are you from. We had been guessing from day one. Wes thought you are Asian but from your name/nick, I thought you are from Eastern Europe.

Fees vary a lot from country to country.

a big sorry to all folks,

I am an asian but currently working here in saudi right now. Hope this may clears up.
thanks again.

Jerzki:bigwave:

If you have a consultant that has been working for 2 or 3 years to develop a QMS you'd be better off to pay him his travel back home and hire someone else.

You're next step should be to find someone who knows what he's doing, or better yet, save the money and do it yourself.

Goodness, at 2-3 years that consultant seems practically an employee! :mg:

It's t-o-o l-o-n-g a period for such contracted work. Maybe I have a suspicious mind, but I wonder if this fellow is hoping to be just absorbed into the company as Management Rep.

Well said Randy and Jennifer

Have they included a “Cost of Quality” review!!!!!!

We had a consultant for a few years and we finally kicked him in the #($#@ right out the door... we got a team together (MR, Quality manager, Engineering Manager and Production Manager) burned up all his work and started from zero.... six months later we had our pre-audit and two months after that a sucessfull certification audit... we had 130 employees and total support from management... alot of sweat, reading, couses but we are proud to say we did it with NO external help...

I think if you are well versed in the standard, and your GM wants to be directly involved, I see no reason for a consultant....

If you have a consultant that has been working for 2 or 3 years to develop a QMS you'd be better off to pay him his travel back home and hire someone else.

You're next step should be to find someone who knows what he's doing, or better yet, save the money and do it yourself.

Though I completely agree :yes: with above on the time taken, sometimes it does happen that the company does not respond appropriately and the project gets delayed beyond imagination.

This could happen due to more than one reason and specially when the consultant is helping the people of the organisation develop the QMS and not developing on his own. These reasons could be:

- busy schedules such as those of Doctors for a private nursing home,
- changes in top / middle management,
- lack of top management commitment,
- inability of top management to keep the people motivated in developing and implementing,
- conflicting egos etc etc.

No, it is not a regular feature, but such instances do occur. Sometimes the consultant has to really work hard to chase the organisation to maintain continuity in order to progress.:frust:

Having implemented 3 systems as a full time employee, there are instances where some level of top management of the company or facility is not 100% committed. As a full-time employee you want to keep your job, so you plod along to get it done. However, this lack of committment creates delays in implementing the system as the "rank and file" see the lack of committment and realize there are no ramifications for NOT following the system.

However, when being hired as a consultant this would be for a max 18 month duration (depending on status of current system and availability of auditors). Anything more than that when using a consultant indicates either a poor consultant or a complete lack of management support. In either case, the consultant shouldn't be there.

Costs for consultants vary dramatically depending on region though! Even in the same area costs vary dramatically.

John

Hello all covers and quality guru's!

Gud day to you all!
Our management is with this consultants for almost over 2 - 3 years now and still our management is not seeing progress, that I would say! Upon my employment here, I have started things or started to clarify the things for them. I know that this consultant is good but i believe the company is lagging so much behind this certification. As i have posted on my posts before, the GM insist he will be the QMR, and he do; he is reviewing the documents that I have prepared applicable to the system, along with the nominated ISO team. Project Managers , they are the four big people of the company. I know this is good, and I believe the company is progressing.
But finally, the management has decided to have a consultant for this ISO project to act as mediator and to clarify things. Because if i am the one who is telling that this and this should be done they tend to hesitate the idea and every meeting, I can say we are dicussing in a high temperature tones but eventually seized down after the meeting. Well, to avoid this I have suggested to go for another consultants coz as I've told you our consultant before is making communications only once in a blue moon. ( whew! i guess this is a long intro...:D ).
My question is , how much does a consultant really have to be paid. We have 100 - 120 owned employees, about plus 500 contrated from other companies, and about 30 people to be directly involved in the implementation.We have prepared the manual already, and some supporting documents.All we need is the fine tuning and the expedite implementation of this project. Just a picture how much as of today's trend!
Thanks in advance covers!!!!!

Jerzki:bigwave:Harry says I have commented about you and your posts before -I don't remember and don't have time now to search for them.

However, based on just THIS thread, I have a STRONG hunch the primary problem causing delays is one of communication.

Regardless whether it is a language translation problem or one of being unable to convert technical jargon to everyday language used by the folks who actually have to implement quality policies and systems, the end result is one of confusion, frustration, and even paranoia.

A major problem I have seen over the years between consultants and clients really boils down to a failure on the part of BOTH parties to conduct an adequate Contract Review, establishing "plateaus" (checkpoints) to determine whether the process is progressing according to plan. If the plan is seriously off schedule, as the one stated here apparently is, THEN the parties need to re-evaluate the contract and the plan, even to the point of stopping and starting over with a new consultant.

In this case, the induced paranoia of the management has caused them to question the validity of comments and documents of BOTH you (jerzki) and the unnamed consultant. In order to go forward, that paranoia has to be erased.

In sounds to me like your management team needs to find an advisor it trusts (attorney, CPA, valued customer or supplier, world class expert, etc.) to help them sort out the "pepper from fly specks" in the current situation. The progress is obviously being sabotaged - the question is whether it is conscious or unconscious. The actual saboteurs may end up being the management, itself - a common theme if you read enough Deming!

Once the trusted advisor helps the management figure out the true status of the project, the management can choose to

adopt a new plan
restart the original plan with some modification (mostly in management attitude and participation)
give up the idea altogether and sell out the company to a different management team which can take the project forward.
Bottom line:
The truth in business is that some management teams simply are not flexible enough to adopt a new system and consciously or unconsciously sabotage any attempt to implement one, regardless of any overt lip service avowing their desire for the change.

:(Sorry - no quick solutions to this issue. It is definitely NOT an issue of the rate of pay for the consultant, except where a client may hire a cheap, incompetent consultant, based on price, not qualification.

Back before I became a contractor I had a similar problem with a consultant telling me as Quality Manager how to structure the QMS, but when it came to an NCR I had to write and put in the corective action fro the auditors approval not the consultant. All he did was say yes to me and off we went.

Our ISO auidtor and the consultant did not get on so the end result was the failings of the consultant were mentioned at the next closing meeting. Off went the consultant after the MD had exactly what he was doing pointed out.

As a contrcator I have put in several QMS's over the years and these have allways been write it, implement it and then hand over to the new QMR in my point of view no more than 12 to 18 months on site at longest and 3 to 6 months at the minimum.

If the consultant stays you have to start to think just why are you there. Time to move on?

Hi, where can I apply ? I would like a job like that.

In general when working with a consultant you should define your expectations clearly in writing, how will it take to complete (for longer projects include milestones), what are the deliverables, regular interim reports. Make sure that the consultants work is value added. Apply PDCA cycle.

K.

In this article about ISO 10019 (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/iso9000-14000/pdf/IMS0405-instructions.pdf), we read:


ISO 10019 then goes on to recommend that the organization establish a complete contract with the QMS consultant, prior to commencing the consulting activity, in order to avoid disappointment and unwelcome surprises. This contract should clearly define the scope of the work (including outputs), have realistic milestones and be cost-effective
for the organization (details are indicated in Annex A.1). The guidelines also recommend that when entering into a contract, the following activities should be given due importance (more details can be found in Annex A.2) :

a) setting agreed contract objectives that are specific, measurable, achievable, realistic and time-limited ;
b) setting out a detailed contract plan with agreed milestones and outputs and communicating the plan to all interested parties ;

c) identifying the training needs of relevant employees so they can perform the ongoing evaluation, maintenance and improvement of the QMS ;

d) implementing the plan and consequently monitoring and evaluating the effectiveness of such, and implementing contingent actions as appropriate ;

e) ensuring the agreed milestones are met or redefined, and

f) defining a process to approve the outcomes of the contract.

Looks like a consensus is forming that management and consultant did not go into the contract with eyes and ears open. Of the orifices on the human head, only the eyes and ears have input to the brain. The mouth has no input. With some folks, it seems as if the brain has no output to the mouth.

... With some folks, it seems as if the brain has no output to the mouth.

Yes and with other folks, the head is the input of another orifice located beneath the waste line. :lol:

Yes and with other folks, the head is the input of another orifice located beneath the waste line. :lol:I appreciated the pun of waste/waist.:rolleyes:

Of the orifices on the human head, only the eyes and ears have input to the brain. The mouth has no input. With some folks, it seems as if the brain has no output to the mouth.

What organ do your taste buds and olfactory sensors connect to?

....My question is , how much does a consultant really have to be paid. We have 100 - 120 owned employees, about plus 500 contrated from other companies, and about 30 people to be directly involved in the implementation.We have prepared the manual already, and some supporting documents.All we need is the fine tuning and the expedite implementation of this project. Just a picture how much as of today's trend!
Thanks in advance covers!!!!!

Jerzki:bigwave:


If all you want is an overview, that can be done initially from over here. I (or one of the other consultants on the Cove) can review your documents and at least give you a fair opinion of where you are. Fine tuning can perhaps be done from here.

If, however, you need more help than you thought, at least we can give you an unbiased opinion.

If you are interested, you may contact me via a private message. The cost should be pretty reasonable for a review such as this.

If, you choose to go it alone, that is fine too. Good wishes...:)

2-3 years, it rather surprised me,you'd better let him leave.

What organ do your taste buds and olfactory sensors connect to?The folks we were talking about have no taste, but they do stink:rolleyes:

Thank you all folks for your bearing with me.

Yes and with other folks, the head is the input of another orifice located beneath the waste line
..... don't do unto others what you dont want others to do unto you....:cool:


However, based on just THIS thread, I have a STRONG hunch the primary problem causing delays is one of communication
...this maybe is a fact, bacause for months of my stay here in this company I have seen this consultant only twice.Yeah, it's true! I know he is good but maybe for some hidden things and that is not for me to bother.:D

And as for this company. The company is earning good and had captured an earning in big big returns that i could say. The management is committed and is willing to pursue the qms. I have discuss this to them and as they say they want the system be put in place , not the certificate.

The documentation have been prepared, though some fine tuning maybe needed. i always discuss things to the up's and now receiving good feedback. The reason why we need such consultant is for the fine tuning, and identify some areas where there maybe some NC's. I know I am quite well versed in the standard but am not an expert that's why we need some assistance on running the system.

Wes Bucey
... they do stink
.... you may say so and sometimes it irritates me and my poor nose...:biglaugh: but it is my duty though....:cool:

..well let's see what i can do , hope my nose will not bleed :biglaugh:...thanks to all covers!:yes::thanks:


jerzki:bigwave:

I had been following Jerzki's post since the beginning. From what was posted previously, it appears there are two main factors. Communication (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=180811&postcount=3) with the consultant is one - as can be seen in this thread (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=180765&postcount=1) and management commitment (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=188962&postcount=18), at least in the early days is another. In one of the post, it was mentioned that the consultant is giving him tight datelines to meet which to me indicate that the consultant is still trying to help them achieve something.

In another thread, he mentioned that everything is done by him (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=188860&postcount=12) - just imagine what the consultant can do if he wasn't around? Also bear in mind the difference between consultancy and hand-holding or spoon feeding.

You can't forced a horse to drink and it will do so when it is thirsty. I would give his consultant the benefit of doubt because he can still stay saned after having a simple project dragged on for 3 donkey years. With regards to his competency, I reserve comments.

How much do you want to pay?

Goodness, at 2-3 years that consultant seems practically an employee! :mg:

It's t-o-o l-o-n-g a period for such contracted work. Maybe I have a suspicious mind, but I wonder if this fellow is hoping to be just absorbed into the company as Management Rep.

It does seem long.

I am just wondering what is the best way to quote a job, to assist an ISO implementation team of a company to obtain certification. I have been using # of mandays. For a company of 100 employee, I figure 2 days for management training and employee orientation, 2 days for internal auditor training, Then about 2-3 days a month for 9 months, for a total of about 25-30 mandays. Is this the right approach? I think companies want to get an idea how much it is going to cost them to bring in a consultant. If my daily rate is $900, the estimated total would be $27,000. If this is over their budget, then I may be out of the picture.

What are the best ways to quote ISO implementation jobs?

Should I just give them my daily rate and leave the # of mandays open?