SGS will issue us an NCR if we do not have a copy of the 2nd Edition Certification Rules during the next audit. Is it necessary for an organization going for TS certification to have a copy...

That seems ridiculous, since the document is primarily directed at the Third-Party auditors/regstrars...

Ask the oft-quoted question: "show me the requirement"...

I would like to see the requirement upon which SGS makes this statement. The TS Rules, 2nd Edition are written for the registrar / 3rd party auditor.

In my opinion, SGS is confused at best and is incorrect.

Show us the requirement....

Regards,

Dirk

When I was implementing TS16949 I got all the books. I wanted to know in advance all the related information. Doesn't cost much and you will be able to understand if there is a conflict with the auditor thinking, and audit days, etc. I suggest go ahead and and get these for your own protection.

SGS will issue us an NCR if we do not have a copy of the 2nd Edition Certification Rules during the next audit. Is it necessary for an organization going for TS certification to have a copy...

In my opinion, SGS is confused at best and is incorrect.Folks, be careful with generalizations. Just because an auditor in Malaysia representing SGS told an organization that they must have the Rules book, we should not assume that it is an SGS policy. Maybe we have a case of a single misinformed auditor.

I have seen numerous cases of people assuming that a CB has a bad policy because one of the auditors, representing that CB, made a bad call. Verify your claim before making broad, general allegations.

we have a copy but bought it to make sure we knew what the rules were. We were never told we needed it. I agree with the others - ask your auditor where it says that you have to have it. But at the same time I would obtain a copy. It's not that expensive and it's good to have around.

When I was implementing TS16949 I got all the books. I wanted to know in advance all the related information. Doesn't cost much and you will be able to understand if there is a conflict with the auditor thinking, and audit days, etc. I suggest go ahead and and get these for your own protection.


I agree with Ralph.

In addition to acquiring the "rules", please check the Sanctioned Interpretations (SI's) and the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) on the IAOB website www.iaob.org.

Hope this helps.

Stijloor.

I would like to see the requirement upon which SGS makes this statement. The TS Rules, 2nd Edition are written for the registrar / 3rd party auditor.

In my opinion, SGS is confused at best and is incorrect.

Show us the requirement....

Regards,

Dirk


Yes, they are written for the registrars, but they describe many of the rules which the registrar will/must apply to the audit. And the Forward indicates the Annexes are normative. I am sure most of my clients have a copy, it is just plain smart way to spend $40.

SGS is going a little too far.

SGS is going a little too far.

Please see Sidney's post above

Sidney is obviously right in that it may well be just one misinformed auditor saying this.

I would suggest the only document(s) you must have and should already have are the ones relating to the certification agreement you have with the certification body. The terms and conditions being one of the most important ones. Now it well be that these contractual documents require you to do things not specified in a standard. That's not really a standards point but a contractual agreement one. And presumably since you review contracts with suppliers as well as with customers you will already know and agree to the terms:)

Although the CB could issue a NCR it wouldn't be against the standard but against the CB rules.

I'll stay away from the trigger happy group. I don't think there is even a misinformed auditor somewhere, rather I think there is a miscommunication. If the OP could check with the guy again to reconfirm?

It´s probably a little to late to discuss the merit of the auditor writing up the NCR or not... what´s done is done... I tend to believe that 99,9% of CB´s auditors are out there to bring value added audits to their clients (hope I´m not being a little naive here)... and when they write us up, it´s for the benefit of our organization...

As previously stated in the posts, having the document could bring benefits to your QMS... if it cost $40, do it...

I tend to believe that 99,9% of CB´s auditors are out there to bring value added audits to their clients (hope I´m not being a little naive here)...Unfortunately, I don't think your percentage represents the real picture. In my experience, the majority of auditors want to add value to the audits and systems they are involved with. If I had to guesstimate, I would put the number at 75%. Still, for some of these well intended auditors, they simply don't know what added value is. For example, some of them think that having revision controlled forms and color paper and stamps in all pages, etc. adds value to systems. They were educated in quality with archaic methods and mind-sets and could not make the transition to modern quality thinking.

The other 25% just see audits as a means to pay the bills. From airport to hotel to plant to semi-intelligent questions to half ass reports to airport to home to airport to hotel....

Was the audit that was performed by the SGS representaive defiend as a compliance audit to TS 16949 or as a performance audit that went beyond compliance?

I didn't know that 3rd party auditors could write up organizations for improvement topics that are outside the scope of a complaince audit.

Also, is there a training and competency issue for SGS since the auditor represented SGS? This could be a process perspective to this issue. Or should we only look at the individual and attribute the problem to a single person?

Thank you,

Dirk

Perhaps we are beating this one too hard. I have told clients they need to get a copy of this, as well as the guidance book. I just don't recall writing an NC over it.

The "TS Rules" is part of the set of TS books. The Rules book has requirements listed, and includes normative annexes. It's not that big of a deal. Maybe the NC was a bit much.

How about this?

The auditor may not be making anything up, it might be something that was agreed to in the contract between the CB and the client, kinda like how the Logo is used and how information concerning their registration status can be advertised.

Ya gotta "read" the contract!

The idea of being written a non-conformance is a bit off by the auditor (or the CB if it's in the contract), however, since the 'rules' lay down what's expected of an organization to be ready for the stage 1 shouldn't someone in that organization have a copy - to help them be successful at the audits???