Hello Fellow Covers,

So far all the posts in this thread have been negative about ASQ.
I understand the points that are made and concerns that were raised.

But, does anyone have any suggestions how ASQ can be improved?
How they can better serve their members?
Or, is there even a future for ASQ?

Stijloor.

P.S. I am a long-time ASQ member.

But, does anyone have any suggestions how ASQ can be improved?
How they can better serve their members?
Or, is there even a future for ASQ?


So long as people keep sending them money, and lusting after their meaningless certifications, nothing will change.

But, does anyone have any suggestions how ASQ can be improved?

Yep, I do and I won't mince any words.

Stand up, push the handle and flush!

Yep, I do and I won't mince any words.

Stand up, push the handle and flush!


We never would have expected anything else. :)

But seriously, ASQ seems to have lost it's purpose in life. It has just taken on the appearance of something without a direction when it has solid, recognized programs already in place. Take CQE certification for instance, which has been basically replaced wtih Six Sigma. ASQ is partially to blame for that because they weren't beating the drum and driving home the relevance and contribution which could be made by a CQE.

Lean is the same way. SME has a solid certification program, along with other organizations, and ASQ is coming along late in the game to jump on the bandwagon. This seems to be a systemic problem. Let's see what the hot topic is in the marketplace and jump on the bandwagon to make some money. How about being "the" leader in a field of expertise, which is what I feel ASQ has stepped away from being? It is just too fragmented.

I think ASQ was once a very respected organization, one which people went to first, regarding questions and concerns about quality topics. Based on conversations I've had with other individuals, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

When it comes to quality, I usually direct people here to the Cove before I suggest ASQ as a source of information.

Wayne

PS: When referring people to the Cove, be sure to warn them that Randy's bark is worse than his bite. :notme:

I joined ASQC back in September of 1995. My main reason was the wealth of information for ISO and QS. I had trouble finding anything on ISO, was able to find only one book at the IU library. I do not use it as often but keep my membership up. I do try to attend a few meetings a year, usually have some good speakers and good tours. My new company pays for it (i believe it was 109 last year and now 120 this year), but I paid for it prior. Many companies like to see it on your resume'. Some companies use only ASQ members for training. I know a consultant who joined for just that reason and picked up several clients just because of ASQ membership.

PS: When referring people to the Cove, be sure to warn them that Randy's bark is worse than his bite. :notme:


That's because a bunch of them got knocked out and 4 got shot out when I was on the street.:lol:

So long as people keep sending them money, and lusting after their meaningless certifications, nothing will change.

As much as I hold Jim in awe of his experience and knowledge (shameless groveling) I have to totally disagree with his view. I recently finished a hiring search that started in Jan. I hired a 2nd shift quality tech. I needed someone with ace mechanical inspection skills, the ability to train and coach others in inspection techniques and print interpretation and the ability to learn new stuff. We interviewed 20 or so people from the 100+ apps we received. I put ads in two newspapers, here at the Cove, AsQ's website, and at Career Builder. We made two previous offers along the way. One was 4 hours late the other used it as leverage to get a better position. I received a resume from Career Builder from someone who'd worked at a bank the last 4 year. I almost dismissed it under the "not currently experience in my field" category. At the top of here resume though was "certifications" ASQ Certified Quality Technician, ASQ Certified Quality Auditor. I thought hmmmmm let's bring her in. She interviewed well, aced our company test, scored so high on our practical quality test that I had to make an offer to her before she could get out of the building. She'll finish up a months training at the end of the week and move to 2nd shift next week. Her base skills were excellent, she had just been out of the business for awhile. In my experience, the lower levels of those "meaningless" certifications provide a very good indication of their base skill sets, ability to learn, and to some degree a certain level of dedication to their craft. Without the certifications everyone else is just a hodgepodge of skill that you hope will be a good fit.

As much as I hold Jim in awe of his experience and knowledge (shameless groveling) I have to totally disagree with his view. I recently finished a hiring search that started in Jan. I hired a 2nd shift quality tech. I needed someone with ace mechanical inspection skills, the ability to train and coach others in inspection techniques and print interpretation and the ability to learn new stuff. We interviewed 20 or so people from the 100+ apps we received. I put ads in two newspapers, here at the Cove, AsQ's website, and at Career Builder. We made two previous offers along the way. One was 4 hours late the other used it as leverage to get a better position. I received a resume from Career Builder from someone who'd worked at a bank the last 4 year. I almost dismissed it under the "not currently experience in my field" category. At the top of here resume though was "certifications" ASQ Certified Quality Technician, ASQ Certified Quality Auditor. I thought hmmmmm let's bring her in. She interviewed well, aced our company test, scored so high on our practical quality test that I had to make an offer to her before she could get out of the building. She'll finish up a months training at the end of the week and move to 2nd shift next week. Her base skills were excellent, she had just been out of the business for awhile. In my experience, the lower levels of those "meaningless" certifications provide a very good indication of their base skill sets, ability to learn, and to some degree a certain level of dedication to their craft. Without the certifications everyone else is just a hodgepodge of skill that you hope will be a good fit.

You got lucky--it's as simple as that. I find it interesting that people who hold ASQ certification in high regard often use competent certified people as exemplars for the value of certification. I find it interesting because any competent CQE (for example) should understand that with a complex subject like competence in a technical discipline, there are many variables, and we should all know that just because phenomenon "A" precedes phenomenon "B" doesn't mean that "A" caused, or was even a factor, in the occurrence of "B." This is the logical fallacy called post hoc ergo prompter hoc (After this, therefore because of this).

I personally have seen far too many incompetent certified people to give it any weight whatsoever in hiring decisions. Nonetheless, I probably should modify the "meaningless" jab. If it helps you to get a job, it has some value, although not necessarily to the company doing the hiring.

Oh my. Such a firework show doth spring up with this subject.

Can't argue, certs are no guarantee of competence, just as registering to ISO this-or-that does not guarantee quality.

Arguably a college degree similarly does not guarantee competence, so long as a person does not actively and earnestly engage the learnings inferred from passing all those classes. I observed some teachers that should not have been in the classrooms...:rolleyes:

And so, buyer beware as always. The cert process's value is directly corellated with the ability and willingless of a certified person to use it, and his/her organization's ability and willingness to allow him/her to use it to the best of his/her ability.

One thing is certain though. In the absence of other structured professional development, the cert process is a good means to build one's body of knowledge and prepare, hopefully, to contribute it for our good and our employers' good. :cfingers:

You got lucky--it's as simple as that. I find it interesting that people who hold ASQ certification in high regard often use competent certified people as exemplars for the value of certification. I find it interesting because any competent CQE (for example) should understand that with a complex subject like competence in a technical discipline, there are many variables, and we should all know that just because phenomenon "A" precedes phenomenon "B" doesn't mean that "A" caused, or was even a factor, in the occurrence of "B." This is the logical fallacy called post hoc ergo prompter hoc (After this, therefore because of this).

I personally have seen far too many incompetent certified people to give it any weight whatsoever in hiring decisions. Nonetheless, I probably should modify the "meaningless" jab. If it helps you to get a job, it has some value, although not necessarily to the company doing the hiring.

I don't know, Jim. I think maybe you're being a little harsh.

Scenario:

Unknown Candidate #1 - Resume with certifications or degrees.

Unknown Candidate #2 - Equivalent Resume but without certifications or degrees.

Analysis:

Unknown Candidate #2 is not necessarily incompetent or less competent. However, Unknown Candidate #1 is not necessarily better, either. However, he has demonstrated some achievement or effort by achieving the certifications or degrees.

Certifications or degrees say something, it just is not a blanket guarantee. There are other factors to evaluate as well.


I once got a job in my early years because he thought I "looked good in a suit," and wouldn't embarass him around the other executives he mingled with... hey, whatever it takes...

The cert process's value is directly corellated with the ability and willingless of a certified person to use it, and his/her organization's ability and willingness to allow him/her to use it to the best of his/her ability.

How can one "use" a certificate, other than using it to get hired? If an organization isn't willing to let smart people be smart, it doesn't make any difference how many certifications a person has, or doesn't have.

One thing is certain though. In the absence of other structured professional development, the cert process is a good means to build one's body of knowledge and prepare, hopefully, to contribute it for our good and our employers' good. :cfingers:

I don't think that's certain at all, given the huge numbers of non-certified people who do good work and have advanced in the profession, many of whom have never thought about, or found any need for, "structured professional development," at least as a distinct medium for advancement.

I think my own certs have a value to me...

1) They help one get past the gatekeeper when job hunting.
2) It kind of gives me self assurance that I really do know the subject matter.

Do I value the cert in making a hire? Sure.
It shows me that the person thinks enough of his/her skills to sit for the exam. It shows me that the person at least has the background knowledge of the subject matter. It shows me motivation - I think most people take these exams to prove more to themselves than to the rest of the world.

Does it show me the person can apply the knowledge? Nope.

But neither does a degree from a university.

I don't know, Jim. I think maybe you're being a little harsh.

Scenario:

Unknown Candidate #1 - Resume with certifications or degrees.

Unknown Candidate #2 - Equivalent Resume but without certifications or degrees.

Analysis:

Unknown Candidate #2 is not necessarily incompetent or less competent. However, Unknown Candidate #1 is not necessarily better, either. However, he has demonstrated some achievement or effort by achieving the certifications or degrees.

Certifications or degrees say something, it just is not a blanket guarantee. There are other factors to evaluate as well.


I once got a job in my early years because he thought I "looked good in a suit," and wouldn't embarass him around the other executives he mingled with... hey, whatever it takes...

But I already said that if the certificate helps you to get a job, that's great. It doesn't mean, however, that the certificate has any intrinsic value beyond that. Being somewhat knowledgeable and experienced in the hiring arena, why should I give any weight to certification if I know that many people get certified just to get in the door, or to provide some leverage in the hiring process?

Part of what originally soured me on ASQ was the fact that they began, quite some time ago, to market certification on patently false pretenses. They provide data to indicate that certified people, on average, make more money than their non-certified counterparts. It should be obvious at first glance that there is fallacious reasoning involved in the contention, because there's no evidence whatsoever to show that the people who make more money weren't doing so before they were certified, and wouldn't, in time, make more money if they didn't already. In other words, there isn't a valid cause-and-effect relationship, at least not one that's been empirically demonstrated.

Now, you can say, given my contention, that perhaps ASQ certification is most likely to be held by high achievers, and even though you can't provide a direct causal relationship, certification is still a positive "marker." I respond to this by repeating that in my experience, I have met too many incompetent certified people, so many that certification's value as a marker is significantly diminished, if not nullified altogether.

But I already said that if the certificate helps you to get a job, that's great. It doesn't mean, however, that the certificate has any intrinsic value beyond that. Being somewhat knowledgeable and experienced in the hiring arena, why should I give any weight to certification if I know that many people get certified just to get in the door, or to provide some leverage in the hiring process?

Part of what originally soured me on ASQ was the fact that they began, quite some time ago, to market certification on patently false pretenses. They provide data to indicate that certified people, on average, make more money than their non-certified counterparts. It should be obvious at first glance that there is fallacious reasoning involved in the contention, because there's no evidence whatsoever to show that the people who make more money weren't doing so before they were certified, and wouldn't, in time, make more money if they didn't already. In other words, there isn't a valid cause-and-effect relationship, at least not one that's been empirically demonstrated.

Now, you can say, given my contention, that perhaps ASQ certification is most likely to be held by high achievers, and even though you can't provide a direct causal relationship, certification is still a positive "marker." I respond to this by repeating that in my experience, I have met too many incompetent certified people, so many that certification's value as a marker is significantly diminished, if not nullified altogether.


I agree with these comments from the financial perspective.

My premise is the effort to achieve certifications is never a negative, though it is not of itself a guarantee of applied skills, either.

I agree with these comments from the financial perspective.

My premise is the effort to achieve certifications is never a negative, though it is not of itself a guarantee of applied skills, either.I also agree. :agree: And hey, since we're on the subject of inflated promises, couldn't we also bash diploma mills like DeVry? Although, to be fair, isn't the resulting competence/incompetence in part due to the people buying into the diploma mills' get-rich-though-us scheme? I'd venture that someone is coming out of Devry with a sellable skill. I just don't know any personally... :rolleyes:

Maybe it's actually all just evidence of a sloppy career preparation system, fraught with risks, charlatans and snake oil.

I may not be a very smart man, but according to my boss and his boss, my ASQ certifications (CMQ/OE and CCT) positively contributed to my being hired in my current position (full-time Quality Engineer III for a Fortune 500 company) which is the BE$$$T job I have EVER had in my life. Like anything else, it's junky-worthless until you find people who value it and it pays off. And I quote Forrest Gump: "Stupid is as stupid does"!!!

Yep, I do and I won't mince any words.

Stand up, push the handle and flush!

I usually WIPE stand up, push the handle, and flush. I know from your posts your hardcore but thats a little much isn't it?

I have enjoyed reading all the posts on the cove regarding ASQ certifications.
I guess I should say that for the record- I just received my certification (CQE). It was a requirement of my hiring, to complete ASQ CQE certification, in place of not having a degree with the words “Engineering” in the title.
That being said, I did enjoy the process of independent study that I set up for myself. I used several references to support the information that was presented in the ASQ on line course.
I did gain from the experience.
I will take into consideration the comments posted on the cove and use them wisely. I am still perusing my Masters degree in Industrial Management.
What other certifications’ are out there, that could provide companies with alternatives to the ASQ models?
Links please…………

I usually WIPE stand up, push the handle, and flush. I know from your posts your hardcore but thats a little much isn't it?

I see from your profile you're a Doggie...........In the Corps we didn't even do what you described, we just held it until we exploded.:lol:

In the 12th SFG (the Green Beenies for the folks out there) we just hid it in the grass while we were sneaking around.:notme:

I see a lot of discussion on ASQ certifications...

My question would be, what's the value of membership in ASQ...I don't need to be a member to get a certification, if I am a member I get a bit of a discount...but what else does membership offer?

From what I see, it gives me a link to an organization where I can:

Purchase Training
Purchase Books
Purchase Conference Seats
Purchase Certification

Attend local Meetings
Recieve an Email Newsletter
Participate in a slightly active forum
Recieve a periodic magazine
Put "ASQ membership" on your resume

What am I missing? Is it really worth paying the membership fees?

How can it be improved?

Ya know Ben, membership might be beneficial to some folks and absolutely useless to others, as with most things its relevant.

Personally for me it was money poorly wasted, but for others it may be money well spent.

As with a couple of other professional organizations I have belonged to I left with a bad taste in my mouth. Not that the ASQ is bad, it just wasn't right foir me personally.

I also agree. :agree: And hey, since we're on the subject of inflated promises, couldn't we also bash diploma mills like DeVry? Although, to be fair, isn't the resulting competence/incompetence in part due to the people buying into the diploma mills' get-rich-though-us scheme? I'd venture that someone is coming out of Devry with a sellable skill. I just don't know any personally... :rolleyes:

Maybe it's actually all just evidence of a sloppy career preparation system, fraught with risks, charlatans and snake oil.I knew Bill DeVry for years before he sold the school(s) to folks who have turned it into a diploma mill, offering diplomas in anything and everything.

When Bill ran the school, it was originally a hands-on school for technicians in disciplines like auto mechanic, HVAC, electric motor repair, office machine repair, etc. plus some "office skill" courses for staff clerks. The courses were taught by skilled practitioners with lots of hands-on experience in the field. Essentially, he was filling a gap previously filled by apprentice programs and OTJ in-house training.

Many current corporations display a big difference between the ethics and vision of the founders and the practices of today's managers which seem greedy, mean-spirited, and small-minded to those of us who remember the originals. A prime example might be Walmart in Sam Walton's early days and Walmart today.

Yes Wes, I agree. I do remember days when DeVry was a respectable school. And you're right, "corporatization" has not necessarily improved our lives in those two and many other examples.:(

I knew Bill DeVry for years before he sold the school(s) to folks who have turned it into a diploma mill, offering diplomas in anything and everything.


I was a little suprised at the "diploma mill" tag, because even after Mr. DeVry was no longer involved, the school had a decent reputation at least into the 1980's, mostly in electronics. I've known several people who got degrees there, and visited once with one of them (near Addison and Western in Chicago, behind Lane Tech, where the old Riverview amusement park once stood--Wes will be familiar, I'm sure). It was big, modern edifice, well equipped, and I'm told, very well staffed. Times change, I guess.

I think among quaility profesionals that having certifications shows a certain level of knowledge and achievment. HOWEVER, one of my ASQ magazines had this on the cover: How to improve your fantasy baseball team--something like that. NOW-- if I was in Accounting and I saw that worhthless pos magazine-- I would immediately think that we should reduce the budget for such nonsense. Its cruel but it is the way it is especially with all the competition from China. I think the authors at ASQ have never worked in Manufacturing in their entire life. Give us something that we can use and make quality look like a contributer. Give us exambles of DOE experiments to solve injection molding problems. Give us more technical reviews of software packages that will enable automatic SPC charts and calculations or reviews of high tech touchless measurement systems. In others words skip the fluff and puff and get more technical. I know I am bitter :nopity: but sometimes I fight the urge to take my ASQ magazine from my mailbox and throw it directly in: the trash.

I think among quaility profiesionals that having certifications shows a certain level of knowledge and achievment. HOWEVER, one of my ASQ magazines had this on the cover: How to improve your fantasy baseball team--something like that. NOW-- if I was in Accounting and I saw that worhthless pos magazine-- I would immediately think that we should reduce the budget for such nonsense. Its cruel but it is the way it is especially with all the competition from China. I think the authors at ASQ have never worked in Manufacturing in their entire life. Give us something that we can use and make quality look like a contributer. Give us exambles of DOE experiments to solve injection molding problems. Give us more technical reviews of software packages that will enable automatic SPC charts and calculations or reviews of high tech touchless measurement systems. In others words skip the fluff and puff and get more technical. I know I am bitter :nopity: but sometimes I fight the urge to take my ASQ magazine from my mailbox and throw it directly in: the trash.

FWIW:
Have you written directly to the Editor-in-Chief at Quality Progress and written posts in the QP Forum in the ASQ Discussion Forums expressing your view?

Several of our Cove visitors are also active on the ASQ Boards and have written such correspondence. In some cases, such messages have gotten explanations or apologies from editors and authors alike.

My grandma always used to say,
"Light a candle rather than curse the darkness."

I was a little suprised at the "diploma mill" tag, because even after Mr. DeVry was no longer involved, the school had a decent reputation at least into the 1980's, mostly in electronics. I've known several people who got degrees there, and visited once with one of them (near Addison and Western in Chicago, behind Lane Tech, where the old Riverview amusement park once stood--Wes will be familiar, I'm sure). It was big, modern edifice, well equipped, and I'm told, very well staffed. Times change, I guess.My best information on the DeVry diploma mill subject is based on my husbands' frustrations in hiring qualified people for computer work at a newspaper. Even with various degrees, certifications etc. the applicants were overwhelmingly disappointing. But the commercials say basically the same thing: after a relatively short period "I got a great paying job that I love as a ___" The applicants were always expecting big salaries from the start because they had this diploma and a MS cert or two.

I personally feel that the "ASQ Certifications" are a help in getting someone in the door for an interview, but, the value of the certification is something that the person seeking it, needs to determine.

As for continuing the education, I feel by reading, being active in the Cove, and the ASQ (member or participant in their discussion boards) will only help anyone seeking further enlightenment in the Quality area.

The membership fees that you are asking about, are based upon self-worth. The only thing I will say, is that I support the ASQ (I am an inactive member) in their goals of expanding the quality area is a good thing.

I personally feel that maybe the ASQ has gone beyond what the original mission was, to improve the knowledge of Quality through the professional organization.

The bottom-line: It is up to you to decide if the value is there.

Also, look at these previous discussions: http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=14035 http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=11939 http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=18075

Read it again right here - - "Many current corporations display a big difference between the ethics and vision of the founders and the practices of today's managers which seem greedy, mean-spirited, and small-minded to those of us who remember the originals." Well said Wes Bucey! The same holds true with any organization - change is inevitable.
A CEO defines "continuous improvement" differently than a janitor or a stock-holder or his customers.
How about the US government? It is now the largest organization with the most revenue...some would complain that it is self-perpetuating, corrupt, bureaucratic, insensitive, power-hungry, regulatory, etc. - the founding fathers would freak, right?! The United Nations has changed a lot too - it's an old paper tiger now...
Going smaller: AARP has gone commercial, getting away from advocacy and PAC activities.
The oldest and best hospitals which were orginally founded under Christian and humanitarian principles over a century ago, are "for-profit" organizations now - turning away those who can't pay.
Even the Girl Scouts place way too much emphasis on their cookie sales as compared to when my sister sold them in the 60's!

My affiliation with ASQ and being certified have been very important to me. Many of you have read my story in this thread: http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=20812. I was brain damaged in an automobile accident in 1995. I have very little memory of the first 32 years of my life. If there is no witness to an event or physical evidence of something in my past, I'm not sure if it actually happened or is some delusion that my mind made up. For several years after I returned from being clinically dead, one of the reminders that I had ever actually done anything was my CQT card. Recovering to that level of proficiency was my goal (I have never gone very far without a goal). I returned to the working world and in 2006 a company looked at my resume and my certification and granted me an interview. I didn't go into the interview blind, I studied the company and their product and I was prepared when I went to sell myself to them. They were impressed with me, but the certification got me to the door.

I live in rural South Carolina and educational opportunities require hours of commuting (I am almost 60 miles from the nearest 4 year university). I have the capacity to learn with little guidance, I once used the CQT BOK as my guideline for study with the CQT as my goal and I achieved it. The CQT was evidence to myself, and later on, to a potential employer that I could set a goal and achieve that goal. I can focus. When I returned to the world of quality, a year and a half ago, the CQE became my goal and I focused and recently achieved it. There are few opportunities around here for advancement and I take what I can get.

ASQ certification should be validation that an individual is willing to devote time and effort to a goal. If you have no goal and do nothing, nothing is all you ever get.

I think a college diploma is worthless. It doesn't show you know anything except you were willing to pay a bunch of money for a piece of paper. I know people who do better jobs than those with diplomas. Of course, I will admit that it will look good on your resume and may even help you get a job. In addition, colleges are just in it for the money and have lost their original purpose. You could save yourself a lot of money by not going to college and learning it on your own. You don't need a piece of paper that will testify that you know anything since it only proves you can pass tests not really do anything.

See, anyone can play the bashing game.

Bill Pflanz

See, anyone can play the bashing game.
Bill Pflanz

It would be better, I think, to respond directly to the issues raised here, and tell why you think they're wrong, than to just characterize it as "bashing." I've given actual reasons for why I don't think certification is worth much, and you appear to disagree. Tell us why you disagree.

It would be better, I think, to respond directly to the issues raised here, and tell why you think they're wrong, than to just characterize it as "bashing." I've given actual reasons for why I don't think certification is worth much, and you appear to disagree. Tell us why you disagree.

The only purpose of my posting was to show that the "actual reasons" given by those criticizing the ASQ certifications can be applied to a college degree. I have heard people without college degrees give many similar arguments on why they should be hired versus those with degrees. You end with the same disagreements in that argument.

Whether anyone believes in the similarities in this comparison is up to you. I think it is a personal decision that does not need to be defended. If you are debating whether to obtain certifications, there is enough discussion here that you should be able to make your own decision. It is not necessarily an issue of making a good or bad decision but making your own decision based on your personal needs. Like it or not, whether they are good or bad, ASQ is the only quality organization that offers the certifications.

Bill Pflanz

The only purpose of my posting was to show that the "actual reasons" given by those criticizing the ASQ certifications can be applied to a college degree. I have heard people without college degrees give many similar arguments on why they should be hired versus those with degrees. You end with the same disagreements in that argument.

Whether anyone believes in the similarities in this comparison is up to you. I think it is a personal decision that does not need to be defended. If you are debating whether to obtain certifications, there is enough discussion here that you should be able to make your own decision. It is not necessarily an issue of making a good or bad decision but making your own decision based on your personal needs. Like it or not, whether they are good or bad, ASQ is the only quality organization that offers the certifications.

Bill Pflanz

I understood your point Bill, but sarcasm doesn't project well across the world wide web, depending on the crowd, sometimes not even across the room.:cool:

There's a normal distribution associated with competency levels for just about any credential ... college degrees, years of experience, ASQ certification. Just the fact that someone has pursued the cert indicated they may have more concern/drive related to their future than those who have not.

There's a normal distribution associated with competency levels for just about any credential ... college degrees, years of experience, ASQ certification. Just the fact that someone has pursued the cert indicated they may have more concern/drive related to their future than those who have not.It may also be merely that the person worked at a company which paid for training and cert cost and penalized those who didn't sign up.

Can't argue, certs are no guarantee of competence, just as registering to ISO this-or-that does not guarantee quality.

Arguably a college degree similarly does not guarantee competence
Exactly!

End of thread. :)