I am a newly trained Lead Auditor who is trying to repair the QMS as best as possible by the new audit since it is unlikely we will have a new QM by then.

Our company hasn't done internal audits in two years (calm down, I know :mad:). The last two Quality Managers have not enforced them, and with our first registration renewal audit just 10 weeks away, they still need to be done.

I'd like to put our internal auditors through a review, and also add some new ones since I have a few who don't want to do it anymore (why would they? It hasn't been done in 2 years).

What would be some things I would need to do for the review?

:thanks:

create a summarized version of the original auditor training? If they have done no audits in the past two years, I seriously doubt they have retained much. Try to schedule your training and audits together? Maybe have more but smaller classes, 1/2 day refresher, 1/2 day auditing? That way, they'll use the skills right away while they are fresh. Then, make sure that you get them back out to audit soon both to keep the knowledge fresh and to finish up your audits.

good luck

I have moved this thread to this forum, since it is regarding Auditing.

I am a newly trained Lead Auditor who is trying to repair the QMS as best as possible by the new audit since it is unlikely we will have a new QM by then.

Our company hasn't done internal audits in two years (calm down, I know ). The last two Quality Managers have not enforced them, and with our first registration renewal audit just 10 weeks away, they still need to be done.

I'd like to put our internal auditors through a review, and also add some new ones since I have a few who don't want to do it anymore (why would they? It hasn't been done in 2 years).

What would be some things I would need to do for the review?

1. Review the applicable standard (ISO, TS...)

2. Review previous CB's findings, if any

3. Review existing Policies and Procedures to include the Internal Audit Procedure.

4. Review, if any, existing Management Reviews

These are just some of what I would review.

create a summarized version of the original auditor training? If they have done no audits in the past two years, I seriously doubt they have retained much. Try to schedule your training and audits together? Maybe have more but smaller classes, 1/2 day refresher, 1/2 day auditing? That way, they'll use the skills right away while they are fresh. Then, make sure that you get them back out to audit soon both to keep the knowledge fresh and to finish up your audits.

good luck

I wasn't at the company when they did the original training. I'd love to have those materials.

I have moved this thread to this forum, since it is regarding Auditing.



1. Review the applicable standard (ISO, TS...)

2. Review previous CB's findings, if any

3. Review existing Policies and Procedures to include the Internal Audit Procedure.

4. Review, if any, existing Management Reviews

These are just some of what I would review.

Hello Quality,

You know what works even better? (If you're up to it...)
Take your internal auditors "by the hand", and conduct a real life "practice" audit. A great application of the adult learning principle. Because you don't have much time...that would work the best.

Good Luck.

Stijloor.

Coury's points make sense. You are forced to jump in with both feet. Do the minimum that is required.
Moving forward, SteelMaiden's makes some very good points for ongoing training. I have a team of 7 auditors, all with varing degrees of auditing competence. We audit 3 standards (TS16949, ISO14001,OHSAS18001), with each monthly audit lasting 2 days. The first half of day 1 is auditor training, sometimes using guideance from ISO 19011, videos, speakers, ppt's, etc. Because this is the only time I can get my audit team together in the same room, at the same time, it is very effective, interactive and fun.

Good ideas. One of my auditors used to be a Director of Quality at his old employer. I also have another who used to be a Baldridge auditor. Those are two (very welcome) additions to my team.

Other than that, I have 1 auditor who is on 3rd shift (everyone else is 1st) who will be very limited with what he is able to audit (plus, his boss wants him removed as an internal auditor). 1 auditor will be overseas until our registration audit. Then I have the remaining 5 auditors who I am wondering if 3 of them will stick around or not.

So, hopefully, I can remind them of how neat auditing can be (like playing detective if a conflict comes up), and how important it is that we have internal auditors. They are the ones who check to make sure we do what we say we do.

So, you have a couple of highly (we hope) competent people, put them to use. Just because you are in charge of making it happen doesn't mean that you have to do it all. Let your folks with lots of experience help in training. As for the lone auditor from 3rd shift...does he want to continue? Your managers/supervisors need to understand that it is they who need to encourage their people to become/stay with the audit program. If they are not encouraging this, then they probably need some remedial training themselves. We have found that auditing other areas has been a great tool in employee development, and has been part of the deciding factor in promotions because it allows an employee to see and understand what they are getting into.

I am a newly trained Lead Auditor who is trying to repair the QMS as best as possible by the new audit since it is unlikely we will have a new QM by then.

Our company hasn't done internal audits in two years (calm down, I know :mad:). The last two Quality Managers have not enforced them, and with our first registration renewal audit just 10 weeks away, they still need to be done.

I'd like to put our internal auditors through a review, and also add some new ones since I have a few who don't want to do it anymore (why would they? It hasn't been done in 2 years).

What would be some things I would need to do for the review?

:thanks:


That is a lot to get done in 10 weeks, but you have received some good advice in this thread.

Option 2 is to hire one of the consultants on this Cove to provide some trainng and assist in rebuilding your audits. Then, after your audit, you can begin to take over again. I would be willing to assist, and I am sure there are other consultants here who would as well.

I'm thinking that if there's been no auditing done for 2 years (just how did your registrar allow them to do that....), then you might just as well start from scratch.:mg:

Here's my suggestion. Schedule a class on site. Invite your two 'preferred' people and select another 3 or 4, one each from the other shifts (3 shifts, right?). You have an opportunity here to select some other candidates, since you may not want to use them this time around. You've got to define some auditor competencies, so take a look at who's got the right kind of experience of the business, credible with management etc.:yes:

Have your selected auditor course provider run an audit 'lab' - an actual on site 'for real' audit of your system, using your newly (re)trained auditors. Use these findings to 'offer' to the registrar and work on those in management review etc.:yes:

Of course, I've done this many times with my clients, so I'd like to offer my services, just as Helmut suggested.........:notme:;):lol:

That is a lot to get done in 10 weeks, but you have received some good advice in this thread.

Option 2 is to hire one of the consultants on this Cove to provide some trainng and assist in rebuilding your audits. Then, after your audit, you can begin to take over again. I would be willing to assist, and I am sure there are other consultants here who would as well.

I agree, it is a lot. You've all left some good ideas. I will definitely be using the engineers with the experience.

I'd like to bring in a consultant to help us after the audit because our procedures all need to be re-written, and I'd like to re-train the current internal auditors and train new ones so we have back-ups. Unfortunately, it is very hard to squeeze money out for the company if it doesn't directly help them make money.

Thanks again for all the help everyone.

I agree, it is a lot. You've all left some good ideas. I will definitely be using the engineers with the experience.

I'd like to bring in a consultant to help us after the audit because our procedures all need to be re-written, and I'd like to re-train the current internal auditors and train new ones so we have back-ups. Unfortunately, it is very hard to squeeze money out for the company if it doesn't directly help them make money.

Thanks again for all the help everyone.

That's always a problem. However, bear in my mind, my suggestion was based on the idea that getting help right from the beginning, will in fact save you money by saving the errors and missteps so common at the beginning.

But, nonetheless, many people have built credible systems without consultants, and it sounds like you have some resources at your disposal. So, we wish you success, and you can call on us and the Cove as needed.

I agree, it is a lot. You've all left some good ideas. I will definitely be using the engineers with the experience.

I'd like to bring in a consultant to help us after the audit because our procedures all need to be re-written, and I'd like to re-train the current internal auditors and train new ones so we have back-ups. Unfortunately, it is very hard to squeeze money out for the company if it doesn't directly help them make money.

Thanks again for all the help everyone.

Glad that you've now got some options. IMHO, to bring a consultant in to rewrite procedures isn't a good way to spend your limited budget. Management won't see much benefit from that. One person finding out how to write good documentation at any number of courses would be more beneficial. Certainly, by having your existing and new auditors trained, that's going to cost, but I can assure you that if it's done well, they will be able to save the cost of the training and more..........

Did I ever tell about the internal auditor who found savings of $8M .......???:notme:;)

I'm thinking that if there's been no auditing done for 2 years (just how did your registrar allow them to do that....), then you might just as well start from scratch.:mg:

Planned intervals. I don't think (even though, I don't agree) that there are requirements other than "planned intervals." :notme: Maybe the company chose to have their Internal Audits done every two years wouldn't that meet the intent? ISO9001:2000, doesn't state that Audits must be performed annually, or am I misinterpreting 8.2.2?

Here's my suggestion. Schedule a class on site. Invite your two 'preferred' people and select another 3 or 4, one each from the other shifts (3 shifts, right?). You have an opportunity here to select some other candidates, since you may not want to use them this time around. You've got to define some auditor competencies, so take a look at who's got the right kind of experience of the business, credible with management etc.:yes:

Very good suggestion, Andy.

ISO9001:2000, doesn't state that Audits must be performed annually, or am I misinterpreting 8.2.2?

You are quite right Coury, 8.2.2 does not state the minimal intervals between audits but the CB (Registrar) may have it in their terms and conditions that the organisation will conduct audits at least once/year and also at least 1 management review/year.

Planned intervals. I don't think (even though, I don't agree) that there are requirements other than "planned intervals." :notme: Maybe the company chose to haver their Internal Audits done every two years wouldn't that meet the intent? ISO9001:2000, doesn't state that Audits must be performed annually, or am I misinterpreting 8.2.2?


Quite clearly 'status & importance' hasn't been taken into consideration, so I'd rather doubt that once every two years is going to cut it - in any business.......

Quite clearly 'status & importance' hasn't been taken into consideration, so I'd rather doubt that once every two years is going to cut it - in any business.......

But, that appears to be subjective. The company may have determined every two years, works. I don't every seeing something in the Contract, that states IA to be performed annually.

I don't disagree, that two years is a long time, I am just putting the question out there for comments,

The company may have determined every two years, works. I don't ever seeing something in the Contract, that states IA to be performed annually.



Quite agree. One simply cannot make blanket statements.

One of my customers put the case (very successfully) that they didn't need to audit something more than once in 2 years. The had a contract with the government to develop a service over a period of time.

In that particular case (once/2 years), the area was subject to very little change, and it was also very low risk. The previous audit indicated no problems. So = status and importance. They did a very comprehensive risk analysis of all areas, prioritised, & determined where to allocate their resources (all very standard business decisions).

Some other areas they audited at far lower intervals - in some cases 3 monthly. In these, the risk was much higher, as they were subject to much greater change and there were some other factors like use of external suppliers, etc.

The external auditor (LRQA) tested their analysis, assumptions & conclusions very carefully, & then accepted it. If he hadn't, I would have argued.

But, that appears to be subjective. The company may have determined every two years, works. I don't every seeing something in the Contract, that states IA to be performed annually.

I don't disagree, that two years is a long time, I am just putting the question out there for comments,


I tend to take Andy's point of view, but yes, the standard does not mandate. However, I think the answer is in your question. Where the standard is nt specific, the organization has to demonstrate that their approach is effective. Based on the OP's question, it would not appear to be the case, and the 2 year cycle further will likely demonstrate their internal audit program provides little juice.

I have reluctantly accepted a 2 year cycle a couple times, but they had to show me that it was effective and suitable for their system. Just compliant is not adequate.

I concur that a two year cycle might be possible, but it's unlikely to be probable that it's effective. I find it very difficult to believe that the following weren't applicable:-

Status - Poor performing, changed/new or 'over' performing aspects of the quality management system. People/organization, processes, customer requirements, suppliers, regs, equipment etc. etc.

Importance - something from the above which affects customer(s) and their satisfaction, regulatory/statutory compliance and/or $$$$.

I cannot conceive of a situation in a business where one (or more) of these things is affected in less than 2 years. Something that stable doesn't sound real to me!