Dear Friendz,
Recently i heard this concept i.e Inverse Brainstorming. Sounds quite interesting , but i have no clue on what is inverse brainstorming.

Can anyone explain it to me with the help of some cool examples....

Shailendra
"The essence of intelligence is skill in extracting meaning from everyday experience":agree1:

Googling I found this link The Opportunities-Obstacles Quotient.pdf (www.tms.com.au/Samples/QO2_USEnglish.pdf)

Inverse Brainstorming
Take what appears to be a satisfactory situation and see what potential problems you can find with it.

This is a start

Take what appears to be a satisfactory situation and see what potential problems you can find with it.Aha... In that case, my dear wife is an expert. No matter how smoothly things are going, she will always find something to be anxious about. :cool:

/Claes

Aha... In that case, my dear wife is an expert. No matter how smoothly things are going, she will always find something to be anxious about. :cool:

/Claes

:topic: Sounds like my wife :notme: Maybe we have more in common than I thought....

Me Too :mg:

Back on topic...

The only difference from ordinary brainstorming seems to be that you try to come up with a problem instead of solving one. I.e: How could we make the customer really unhappy?

Then, I assume you proceed to prevention mode.

/Claes

Inverse Brainstorming
Tampering
Take what appears to be a satisfactory situation and see what potential problems you can find with it.

Noone has been able to explain me this concept except Claes...

Thanx a lot Claes, but i wud request you to plz throw more lights on this topic.Can u plz explain wid some kewl examples ?

Noone has been able to explain me this concept except Claes...Thank you, but please note: The explaination I gave is just the way I understood it, and I have never used this method myself.

However, I have been looking around and found this (I forgot where, I'm afraid): Whereas normal brainstorming is all about thinking up creative ways around problems, inverse brainstorming turns an opportunity inside out in order to find things that will prevent it from working.

Why don't we try some example here: We have just landed a nice fat order for gadget this and that. What could prevent us from fulfilling it?

/Claes

:mg: No discussion yet from genius covers yet on this topic ......
:cool: Com on guys...... i need inputs on this topic.

It's similar to another Creative Thinking technique called Reversal. Claes touched on it (How could we make the customer really unhappy? ).

For example, if customer satisfaction is an issue, using Reversal would mean looking for all ways this could be made worse. This helps people think about things from another perspective - destroying rather than building. That can release a lot of creative energy and allow politically sensitive issues to be raised. Once the levers for customer dissatisfaction have been found, these can be reversed to improve satisfaction.

I've listed this and some other creative thinking tools here:
http://www.sanguma.com/Creative_Thinking_Assistant/techniques.htm#reversal

:mg: No discussion yet from genius covers yet on this topic ......
:cool: Com on guys...... i need inputs on this topic.

Hello shailendra,

I believe that every Cover is a genius in her/his own right. They may choose not to engage in discussions on every issue that is raised here at The Cove.

Stijloor.

If you're looking at the example of how to make the customer unhappy, how about 'brainwriting' methods like Nominal Group Technique followed by FMEA?

Inverse Brainstorming
Tampering
Take what appears to be a satisfactory situation and see what potential problems you can find with it.
I believe that there are some people who sit around trying to find a "neat" expression to use so that they will see it discussed and thereby boost their egos. This does not apply to covers.

If I understand "inverse brainstorming" it is really brainstorming about how the original brainstorm did not work since it did not identify the things that would seem to be working but were not really working because the apparent success could be easily reversed just by a little more brainstorming but using inverse brainstorming this time.

Confusing and illogical as far as I can see. If it is working, why not spend the time and resources on something which needs it more? As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it (just try to make it better - Is this where inverse (more aptly called reverse) brainstorming comes in?

I believe that there are some people who sit around trying to find a "neat" expression to use so that they will see it discussed and thereby boost their egos. This does not apply to covers.

If I understand "inverse brainstorming" it is really brainstorming about how the original brainstorm did not work since it did not identify the things that would seem to be working but were not really working because the apparent success could be easily reversed just by a little more brainstorming but using inverse brainstorming this time.

Confusing and illogical as far as I can see. If it is working, why not spend the time and resources on something which needs it more? As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it (just try to make it better - Is this where inverse (more aptly called reverse) brainstorming comes in?

If the definition given in this thread is correct, then it doesn't describe inverse brainstorming, which is a concept that makes no sense. In order to qualify as inverse brainstorming, the brainstorming process would have to be reversed--you would have to have a bunch of potential solutions, and work backwards from there to when the potential solutions were identified. :frust::bonk:

There's certainly nothing wrong with trying to improve a process, but I sure wish that people would find out what words mean before using them.

To my understanding "inverse brainstorming", is a term to get you to look outside the box. Take for example a prison, the people who design the prison are trying to prevent people from escaping. So, they are looking for possible ways people might escape. "Inverse brainstorming", would be to think from the otherside, if you were the one being imprisoned what are some of the ways you would try to escape. The method behind it is to get you to look from the inside out rather than the outside in. As Claes has mentioned.

This is just my :2cents:

Also sounds like "devil's advocate" to me - which can be an important role.

To my understanding "inverse brainstorming", is a term to get you to look outside the box. Take for example a prison, the people who design the prison are trying to prevent people from escaping. So, they are looking for possible ways people might escape. "Inverse brainstorming", would be to think from the otherside, if you were the one being imprisoned what are some of the ways you would try to escape. The method behind it is to get you to look from the inside out rather than the outside in. As Claes has mentioned.

This is just my :2cents:

FMEA, in other words.

FMEA, in other words.

Yes, same concept different name.

In my opinion, inverse brainstorming fits into the process this way.

I have process X.

I brainstorm opportunities for improvement of process X: O1, O2, O3, etc

Now I Inverse Brainstorm each opportunity (O1) to determine what set of circumstances will prevent opportunity O1 from working.

I do the same Inverse Brainstorming for each opportunity identified in the Brainstorming session.

Jim Shelor

:topic: I recently had a delegate on a course tell me that I should not use the term brainstorming as it is not 'politically correct' (pc) in regard to those people who have mental health difficulties. He told me I should use the term 'brain showering' instead :confused:

Friends,

I've been told that braindrizzle is acceptable too. :notme:

Stijloor.

In my opinion, inverse brainstorming fits into the process this way.

I have process X.

I brainstorm opportunities for improvement of process X: O1, O2, O3, etc

Now I Inverse Brainstorm each opportunity (O1) to determine what set of circumstances will prevent opportunity O1 from working.

I do the same Inverse Brainstorming for each opportunity identified in the Brainstorming session.

Jim Shelor

Jim,

What you describe is undoubtedly a good thing, but it's not inverse anything. If there is an opportunity for improvement, then brainstorming might be a good way to deal with it, but calling that inverse brainstorming makes no sense unless, as I said earlier, somehow you're doing it backwards. In other words, in order for it to be inverse, you'd have to start with the opportunities before the process is even defined. :confused:

:topic: I recently had a delegate on a course tell me that I should not use the term brainstorming as it is not 'politically correct' (pc) in regard to those people who have mental health difficulties. He told me I should use the term 'brain showering' instead :confused:

I've been told that braindrizzle is acceptable too. :notme:


I think the people who make suggestions like that are victims of brain drought.

Dear Friendz,
Recently i heard this concept i.e Inverse Brainstorming. Sounds quite interesting , but i have no clue on what is inverse brainstorming.

Can anyone explain it to me with the help of some cool examples....

Shailendra
"The essence of intelligence is skill in extracting meaning from everyday experience":agree1:

:mg: No discussion yet from genius covers yet on this topic ......
:cool: Com on guys...... i need inputs on this topic.

Coercion is neither needed nor advisible.Covers will contribute if they so desire. :cool:

To my understanding "inverse brainstorming", is a term to get you to look outside the box. Take for example a prison, the people who design the prison are trying to prevent people from escaping. So, they are looking for possible ways people might escape. "Inverse brainstorming", would be to think from the otherside, if you were the one being imprisoned what are some of the ways you would try to escape. The method behind it is to get you to look from the inside out rather than the outside in. As Claes has mentioned.

This is just my :2cents:

You are very close to the answer Frank,and it is a befitting example. :yes:

The "Inverse Brainstorming" is nothing new,and has been in use since ages,chiefly by Intelligence Community,by Military -in their war room tactical analysis,by Chess Grand Masters etcetra.

For example:

1.'A' & 'B' are at loggerheads
2.'A' concocts a plan to trap 'B'
3.'B' knows the resources of 'A' and anticipates the trap plan.
4.'A' knows that 'B' will anticipate the trap,and works on the countermeasures which 'B' will take to trap the trapper 'A',and prepares his plan in accordance with the pros & cons of 'B's trap.
5.'B' smelling 'A's countermeasures amends further. ....and so on.

In any area of work, Problem is the greatest enemy,and there are number of problem solving techniques.

During Brainstorming,the group deals with a 'Problem' mulls over all plausible causes,and finds the solutions.

The "Inverse Brainstorming",as the name suggests,is opposite of the above.

Here you try to find out,what can go wrong in a process that may create problems,and what measures you must take to avoid 'creation of a problem'.In other words you,are nipping the problem in the bud.In stead of rectifying a problem when it arises,you are ensuring that the problem does not arise at all !! Is'nt it wonderfull?!

In all other methods,we are fire-fighting:finding solutions to problems,CA/PA, RCA and the lot.In IB (short form),you are not permitting Fire to arouse,by abstaining fuel or spark or oxygen or all the three!

This is predictive problem solving,a very good methodology,that lands your process in the Problem-free-zone,leading towards zero error.You start thinking anew,viz:What action,inaction or reaction can produce non conforming product,what could increase cost,what would displease customer, and so on.List is endless.And then find ways to arrest the problems.
You find it amusing?No,it is amazing!

Apply IB to any process-dissecting from start to finish-and you will be surprised to see the enthusiasm of the participants and the astonishing results produced by the exercise.

Reasons for getting better and quicker results through IB are based on human psychology.Homo-sapiens being social animals,are always trained to show their 'good side',while their 'bad side' remains suppressed.Therefore their destructive mind and devilish nature remains unused.When you unleash this enormous energy of destructive mind (used for a good cause) directed correctly,then the results are amazing.

Don't take my word for it,just try once,and share your experience here.

Umang :bigwave:

It's the first time I hear about inverse brainstorming and I must admit is sounds interesting.

Thanx a Lot Umang for sharing your knowledge.

Wateva u said i.e find what may cause problems and then develop measures to tackle it before problem arises ............... sounds similar to "poka yoke"........ Maybe am wrong ... but "Poka Yoke" tells the same thing ?

So tht implies Inverse Brainstorming is just another word for Poka Yoke!

So that implies Inverse Brainstorming is just another word for Poka Yoke!

Not quite....they're not happening at the same level, or same time...

1. Brainstorm (reverse, inverse, straightforward, or whatever you want to call it...)
2. Prioritize
3. Decide
4. Implement fail safe (prevention) (Poka Yoke) measures.

Stijloor.

Not quite....they're not happening at the same level, or same time...

1. Brainstorm (reverse, inverse, straightforward, or whatever you want to call it...)
2. Prioritize
3. Decide
4. Implement fail safe (prevention) (Poka Yoke) measures.

Stijloor.

Perhaps you have missed the point.Let me enlarge upon it:

During Brainstorming sessions,you maintain a positive attitude towards problem solving and use constructive thinking process for finding solutions.

During "Inverse Brainstorming",you have to employ negative attitude with destructive thinking,to find ways to create the problem;then find methods to prevent it from happening.

The major difference is in the attitude,and the use of suppressed destructive energy in a constructive way.You will be in for a surprise when you'll see the speed of your teams,on how to create faults!Child's play for them-literally speaking. :bigwave:

Whoaaaaaaaaaa ...

Thanx a lot Umang !
Now i will definitely use this tool in my PSP workshop. A group exercise on Inverse Brainstorming is what am excited abt now ,

Thanx again Umang!

Thanx to all Covers who shared their knowledge and thanx to the creator of this forum ... May gawd bestow its blessings to the creator of this forum and all those who have made it a success.

Whoaaaaaaaaaa ...

Thanx a lot Umang !
Now i will definitely use this tool in my PSP workshop. A group exercise on Inverse Brainstorming is what am excited abt now ,

Thanx again Umang!

Thanx to all Covers who shared their knowledge and thanx to the creator of this forum ... May gawd bestow its blessings to the creator of this forum and all those who have made it a success.

You are welcome Shailendra.:bigwave:

I will wait for your feed back to be shared on the cove,since this extra ordinary tool is not yet fully explored by the quality community.

And yesss you are right.The creator of this forum Marc has done a yomen service to the quality community for which,no ammount of 'Thanks' are enough.If you feel that you are getting a lot out of this forum,then give back a little in return,which will be more than giving plain thanks. :D

Perhaps you have missed the point.Let me enlarge upon it:

During Brainstorming sessions,you maintain a positive attitude towards problem solving and use constructive thinking process for finding solutions.

During "Inverse Brainstorming",you have to employ negative attitude with destructive thinking,to find ways to create the problem;then find methods to prevent it from happening.


Brainstorming involves invoking a broad spectrum of the available intellectual capital in process improvement. It may be used to help solve a problem that already exists, or in FMEA fashion, to identify potential process problems. It's generally good practice in the first phase of brainstorming to accept all ideas uncritically. What you are describing as inverse brainstorming is nothing of the sort; it's just the second phase of the brainstorming process, when the ideas from phase one are sorted in search of the most likely candidates for implementation. In other words, in creating something called "inverse brainstorming," you seem to be misunderstanding the brainstorming process. The whole idea of the PFMEA process, which involves brainstorming, is to try to identify process failure modes before they happen, and in some cases, before a process even exists. This means that participants must "find ways to create the problem," which does not require a negative attitude.

Brainstorming involves invoking a broad spectrum of the available intellectual capital in process improvement. It may be used to help solve a problem that already exists, or in FMEA fashion, to identify potential process problems. It's generally good practice in the first phase of brainstorming to accept all ideas uncritically. What you are describing as inverse brainstorming is nothing of the sort; it's just the second phase of the brainstorming process, when the ideas from phase one are sorted in search of the most likely candidates for implementation. In other words, in creating something called "inverse brainstorming," you seem to be misunderstanding the brainstorming process. The whole idea of the PFMEA process, which involves brainstorming, is to try to identify process failure modes before they happen, and in some cases, before a process even exists. This means that participants must "find ways to create the problem," which does not require a negative attitude.

Hello Jim,

I hold you in high esteem,and have no desire to engage in verbal combat.:argue:
At least we agree to disagree.(There is agreement in disagreement too)

The word twisting or phrase twisting will not be able to bring us on common ground.I by my lights,am on Terra-Firma.You must be feeling the same. :mg:

I know exactly what I am talking about,but a dumb person can not tell you the taste of sweetness.It can only be felt.As is felt by the OP-Shailendra-who was ecstatic in his response,something close,to felt by the great Arcamedese,while uttering 'Eureka'.

I would request one and all,to give it a try ONCE, irrespective of your bias,logic,or (mis)understanding.It won't hurt,but it is bound to open doors you believe don't exist.This phenomenon is like an atom bomb,that can change your perspective of problem solving,(don't you forget the third angle)

Umang :cfingers:

Hello Jim,

I hold you in high esteem,and have no desire to engage in verbal combat.:argue:
At least we agree to disagree.(There is agreement in disagreement too)

The word twisting or phrase twisting will not be able to bring us on common ground.I by my lights,am on Terra-Firma.You must be feeling the same. :mg:

I know exactly what I am talking about,but a dumb person can not tell you the taste of sweetness.It can only be felt.As is felt by the OP-Shailendra-who was ecstatic in his response,something close,to felt by the great Arcamedese,while uttering 'Eureka'.

I would request one and all,to give it a try ONCE, irrespective of your bias,logic,or (mis)understanding.It won't hurt,but it is bound to open doors you believe don't exist.This phenomenon is like an atom bomb,that can change your perspective of problem solving,(don't you forget the third angle)

Umang :cfingers:

Umang,

Please note that I was not necessarily disagreeing with your strategy; I was disagreeing with the idea of taking what should be considered a normal part of the brainstorming process and renaming it for no apparent reason.

Umang,

Please note that I was not necessarily disagreeing with your strategy; I was disagreeing with the idea of taking what should be considered a normal part of the brainstorming process and renaming it for no apparent reason.

Let me re-iterate Jim,It is not a normal part of Brainstorming.But is appositely opposite of Brainstorming. :read:

In Brainstorming,if you are looking outwards from inside,then during 'Inverse Brainstorming' you are loking inwards from outside.and vice-versa

The whole perspective changes.Dimension and angle changes. :bonk:

This revolutionary idea I had learnt,when I had a stint with the 'Intelligence community'(something I did'nt wish to disclose),and I applied it (successfully) in the Quality circle with astounding results.

The human psycology involved,as explained in earlier posts,play a significant role in this process.You have only to see it to believe it.And to see this,you will have to accept,apply and experiment-period.

Umang :nopity:

Let me re-iterate Jim,It is not a normal part of Brainstorming.But is appositely opposite of Brainstorming. :read:

In Brainstorming,if you are looking outwards from inside,then during 'Inverse Brainstorming' you are loking inwards from outside.and vice-versa

The whole perspective changes.Dimension and angle changes. :bonk:

This revolutionary idea I had learnt,when I had a stint with the 'Intelligence community'(something I did'nt wish to disclose),and I applied it (successfully) in the Quality circle with astounding results.

The human psycology involved,as explained in earlier posts,play a significant role in this process.You have only to see it to believe it.And to see this,you will have to accept,apply and experiment-period.

Umang :nopity:
I agree with Jim. The thing being called "Inverse Brainstorming" is a normal part of brainstorming.

The second half of brainstorming is to go back through the identified ideas and determine which will work and which will need other changes to make them work. Is that not what we have been describing as Inverse Brainstorming?

Respects,

Jim Shelor

I agree with Jim. The thing being called "Inverse Brainstorming" is a normal part of brainstorming.

The second half of brainstorming is to go back through the identified ideas and determine which will work and which will need other changes to make them work. Is that not what we have been describing as Inverse Brainstorming?

Respects,

Jim Shelor

Welcome to debate Jim. :bigwave:

You go for Brainstorming to solve a problem.The brainstorming process starts only when the problem erupts.The Problem is already present there.Is'nt it?is it not so??

Where as Inverse Brainstorming starts in absense of a problem.See the major difference!!The first step here,is to find out ways to create a problem,and then find ways to plug the loop holes so the problem does not generate at all.That is the beauty of the strategy.Nipping in the bud!

Both the processes are poles apart,diametrically oppsite.In first case,the root cause for the process is present,in the second case,the root cause for the process is absent.You start with a vacuum.Then how the two may be termed as 'same','similar',or part of one another.

One is a POST MORTEM analysis,the other is a PRE-NATAL analysis.

Hope there is more clarity now on the subject.

Other opinions are welcome.

You go for Brainstorming to solve a problem.The brainstorming process starts only when the problem erupts.The Problem is already present there.Is'nt it?is it not so??

No, it's not so, and that's where you're confused. As I said earlier, brainstorming is, or should be, a part of the PFMEA process, when possible process failure modes are identified, before any problems occur. You seem to be hung up on the idea that brainstorming is an exclusively reactive process. It's not, which is why what you're describing as inverse brainstorming isn't inverse anything--it's the second stage of the brainstorming process.

Interesting discussion. I agree with Jim. Brainstorming is a technique not uniquely used for problem solving but problem avoidance too. The effective and correct use of preventive tools such as a PFME(C)A involves brainstorming of the types of failures, not that there's been problems already.

IMHO it is simply another example of repackaging of a technique for it's own sake.......

I totally agree with Umang.Whereas brainstorming is all about thinking up creative ways around problems, inverse brainstorming looks at an opportunity and then considers all the obstacles that might prevent the opportunity from working. This technique is very useful in exposing the assumptions that often lie hidden in the unconscious mind when just one person looks for what could go wrong.:biglaugh:

This term sounds like "consultant speak." Thus it means whatever the consultant who invented it means it to say.

For me, brainstorming is by definition a failrly random, open thinking process. Thus, "inverse" is not a fitting term. To invert something, the thing would would have to have some sort of structure that can be inverted.

Doesn't apply well, here, I think.

Where as Inverse Brainstorming starts in absense of a problem.See the major difference!!The first step here,is to find out ways to create a problem,and then find ways to plug the loop holes so the problem does not generate at all.That is the beauty of the strategy.Nipping in the bud!

Other opinions are welcome.

I was just thinking that, in some of the automotive supplier facilities that I am familiar with, if the quality manager said to the plant manager, "We need to implement a tool to create problems". Well then, during my next audit, I would be introduced to the third quality manager of the year. :yes:

These folks are too lean and have too many problems already, to be conjuring up additional problems to wade though. :tg:

...inverse brainstorming looks at an opportunity and then considers all the obstacles that might prevent the opportunity from working.

I fixed that for you. :notme:

No, it's not so, and that's where you're confused. As I said earlier, brainstorming is, or should be, a part of the PFMEA process, when possible process failure modes are identified, before any problems occur. You seem to be hung up on the idea that brainstorming is an exclusively reactive process. It's not, which is why what you're describing as inverse brainstorming isn't inverse anything--it's the second stage of the brainstorming process.

Sorry Jim,I am past the (mental)age that breeds confusion.I may be right,or I may be wrong,but confusion is not my cup of tea.My mind is crystal clear on the subject,may be there is a communication gap,may be I am unable to put accross this idea to covers. :(

INVERSE BRAINSTORMING is there from time immemorial,it's not new.Just do a google and this term is available,which goes to prove that this term is not coined by any T.D.H.

Your suggestion that 'Inverse Brainstorming' is a part of Brainstorming,is something I find hard to digest.Brainstorming can be a part of Inverse Brainstorming,literally as well as technically;but the vice versa is beyond my comrehension.

Let me make a fresh effort to show the difference between the two:

1.Brainstorming-used for problem solving-the team players are in positive mode-minds centered towards problem solving-visualise all possible problems that have occured earlier,or may occur(based on bank of knowledge from similar projects)-find solutions by using all problem solving tools in conjunction with FMEA,PFMEA,DFMEA etcetra.

2.Inverse Brainstorming-has two stages-(i) used for delibrately creating problems-the team players are put in negative and destructive mode-aroused to use their latent potential of destructive energy (lying in abundance in Homo Sapiens)-guided and goaded to create as many problems as they can viz:How to cause delays,How to stall production,How to generate non-conforming products at different stages of production,How to increase cost,How to displease the customer etcetra.

(This is where lies the major difference between the two.This has to be fully understood by each participant,else the whole idea goes futts)
Break on completion of task (i)

(ii) The team players (same or different) reassemble and are asked to swtch on their minds towards problem solving,and normal brainstorming session begins.

A very good example was cited by Frank about prison & prisoner.In the great movie 'Von Ryan Express' starring Frank Sinatra,the prisoners were able to out-think thier captors by thinking from out side-in.

Another model of I.B. is Hacking.The hackers using their destructive mind and negative attitude,are capable of hacking any software.They work furiously towards 'Creating Problems'.There are special courses teaching 'Advanced hacking techniques',and major soft ware companies hire professional hackers,use them (cnstructively) for inverse brainstorming and safe guard their product.

Ther are numerous examples,but I think enough is enough. :cool:

I will take the p (potential) FMEA and the Kepner Trego PPA (potential problem analysis) tools over getting into an ideological discussion on whether those tools are deliberate enough for a problem solving approach. I think they are. This stuff kind of gives me flash backs of cybernetics :lol: Anyway if you attempt to approach problem solving with "how can I purposely defeat the system?" the problem becomes the people and the solution a behavioral deterrent which again can be captured using any type of problem solving / preventitive action tool.

Sorry Jim,I am past the (mental)age that breeds confusion.I may be right,or I may be wrong,but confusion is not my cup of tea. :(
Well, I talked this over with Daisy, and she's confused.

http://elsmar.com/jpg/daisyconfused001winceds7.jpg


Anyone interested in the subject can read through the discussion and come to their own conclusions. Thanks for the ideas. :agree:

I will take the p (potential) FMEA and the Kepner Trego PPA (potential problem analysis) tools over getting into an ideological discussion on whether those tools are deliberate enough for a problem solving approach. I think they are. This stuff kind of gives me flash backs of cybernetics :lol: Anyway if you attempt to approach problem solving with "how can I purposely defeat the system?" the problem becomes the people and the solution a behavioral deterrent which again can be captured using any type of problem solving / preventitive action tool.

:bigwave: Welcome to the debate Chaos.KT approach is very effective no denying it.I do visit KT circle.PFMEA is not a tool by itself,it is used in conjunction with other problem solving tools.

Who prefers which tool over others,is a matter of liking and understanding of every individual.It varies with requirement and ease a person has with the tool in question.This is not the point of discussion here.The discussion here is wheather you recognise Inverse Brainstorming as a worthy tool,or a tool,or nothing et-all. :notme:

Once again,I would like to focus your attention on the HACKERS.Show me a single soft-ware company worth its salt,that can afford to launch its product without the Inverse analysis done by hired Hackers?!

In the intelligence community,Inverse Brainstorming is a must,since it is a matter of life and death for the person(s) involved.You are dead,even if your body has not died but your cover is burnt,because of one uncalculative move!Can you comprehend the seriousness of the scenario? I can,because I have gone through the process.

Chess Grand Masters can not contribute anything to chess manuels without the power of Inverse Brainstorming.The permutation & combinations are astronomical,and one single mistake costs the game.

Please do not condemn any thing just because you don't like it,or don't need it,or you don't understand its importance to others.Laughing or cutting jokes on a serios matter like this,is something any one can do-period.I don't blame you,you may be right by your lights,since there are no absolute rights or wrongs. :2cents:

I'm sorry if you feel hurt by my out burst,but sometimes it becomes difficult to control.There is nothing personal since we don't even know each other.

I don't say what I mean,but I mean what I say.

Umang :caution:

Well, I talked this over with Daisy, and she's confused.

Anyone interested in the subject can read through the discussion and come to their own conclusions. Thanks for the ideas. :agree:

Whom you consult is your prerogative Jim.At least you have the most fathful consultant on planet Earth.I envy you. :agree:

It's a fun discussion. If you use hackers as an example, then again I would go back to the root cause (behavior, not software) for the solution otherwise one would have to patch every possibility which is improbable. In this case as I stated in my prior post you need a behavioral deterrent for a true solution.
You can't really apply a hacker and chess scenario, as in chess there are rules. In all cases if you physically remove the opponent, you win. Bobby Fischer can't beat someone at chess if he is unconscious or not at the game or the opponent never comes to the game. :lol: As far as the undercover scenario, I thought we were applying this to problem solving (my step father was a cop and went undercover, that was to gather evidence/data, not to problem solve). :biglaugh:
I don't condemn it, I just have issues with the feasibility. I guess you would have to show me evidence where this technique mitigates risk more than other tools. I guess the positive is that it looks like it would keep someone in a job for a long time!:lol:
Yeah, I tried causal loop analysis too...and came to the conclusion that it just wasn't worth the time dealing with all the variables.:bonk: However I just may use this as management often likes changes just for the sake of change!:D

Brainstorming is all about thinking up creative ways around problems, while Inverse Brainstorming looks at an oppurtunity and then considers all obstacles that might prevent the oppurtunity from working. This technique is useful in exposing the assumptions that often lie hidden in the unconscious mind.

Examples of Inverse Brainstorming are -

1. what would increase cost, or
2. what would displease the customer

Brainstorming is all about thinking up creative ways around problems, while Inverse Brainstorming looks at an oppurtunity and then considers all obstacles that might prevent the oppurtunity from working. This technique is useful in exposing the assumptions that often lie hidden in the unconscious mind.

Examples of Inverse Brainstorming are -

1. what would increase cost, or
2. what would displease the customer

Hi Qualityalways,

It's a big relief and heartening to know that someone here acknowledges this age old technique,and agrees with it's usefulness.:applause:

I can't thank you enough for your encouraging post.(B'cause I had lost my confidence on the cove).

:thanks:

Umang

I can't thank you enough for your encouraging post.(B'cause I had lost my confidence on the cove).


I'm glad you regained your confidence, but if you lost it originally because someone disagreed with you, you're probably going to lose it again, sooner or later. :D In instances like this, I always think of a quote attributed to George Bernard Shaw: When two men in business together always agree, one of them is unnecessary." If all of us always agreed about everything, the Cove wouldn't serve a useful purpose.

I'm glad you regained your confidence, but if you lost it originally because someone disagreed with you, you're probably going to lose it again, sooner or later. :D In instances like this, I always think of a quote attributed to George Bernard Shaw: When two men in business together always agree, one of them is unnecessary." If all of us always agreed about everything, the Cove wouldn't serve a useful purpose.

Well Jim,it is not that 'some' disagreed;but when 100% disagree with the idea,then I am prooved one hundred percent wrong (which I know is not true) then,it is natural for a human being to loose his faith and confidence in the system.Agreements & disagreement are usual parts of life,and I'm never shy of accepting whenever I err.Cove is a learning ground for all,irrespective of age,position or experience.Then why a tough stand to proove some one wrong?!?I firmly believe in the phiosophy:Even if you err,err on the positive side.:notme:
Any way,thanks for your post.

Umang

I missed this first time around. :bonk:

Looks like someone has invented another unnecessary term. IMHO brainstorming is a means of rapidly capturing ideas - whether they be about potential problems or problem solutions.

I have used it in training FMEA for years encouraging delegates to find other potential failure modes, effects.

Don't tell me now I've been doing it wrong! :lol:

Well Jim,it is not that 'some' disagreed;but when 100% disagree with the idea,then I am prooved one hundred percent wrong (which I know is not true) then,it is natural for a human being to loose his faith and confidence in the system.Agreements & disagreement are usual parts of life,and I'm never shy of accepting whenever I ere.Cove is a learning ground for all,irrespective of age,position or experience.Then why a tough stand to proove some one wrong?!?I firmly believe in the phiosophy:Even if you ere,ere on the positive side.:notme:
Any way,thanks for your post.

Umang

Don't forget, there are many here who didn't make a judgment either way. Many of us simply read what was presented from both sides. Some, agreed with you or at least were inspired to at least think about the concept. Some are set in their ways and may at a later time see your point. Some may never see it. The point is, you are entitled to your opinion and without your post, none of us would be challenged to look at our system.

Had Columbus given up his ideas because of rejection we would still be falling off the edge of the world.

Dave

Well Jim,it is not that 'some' disagreed;but when 100% disagree with the idea,then I am prooved one hundred percent wrong (which I know is not true) then,it is natural for a human being to loose his faith and confidence in the system.

It's natural to lose faith in the system based on something which you acknowledge isn't true? :confused: Some contributors did agree with you. You also need to remember that the proportion of the people who read these discussions but don't contribute to them by posting is very large; the number of people who actually post here is the tip of the proverbial iceberg. We have no way of knowing how many people actually agree or disagree with anything that's posted here, and it's possible that the actual majority agreed with you, and thought that I was full of horse poop. What's actually important is that we both made an effort to express reasoned opinions, and that others might have the opportunity to learn something from it.

Agreements & disagreement are usual parts of life,and I'm never shy of accepting whenever I ere.Cove is a learning ground for all,irrespective of age,position or experience.Then why a tough stand to proove some one wrong?!?

You seem to be taking things personally. I respect you and your experience and your contributions. That doesn't mean that I always must agree with you, or that disagreement per se is not a positive force for improvement. Knowledge advances because of disagreement, not in spite of it.


I firmly believe in the phiosophy:Even if you ere,ere on the positive side.:notme:

I read this as, "If you're going to make a mistake, make it by agreeing with me." In other words, you think I should look past any disagreement I might have with your ideas for fear that you might be offended by my voicing my disagreement. If my interpretation is correct, I disagree. :D

Don't forget, there are many here who didn't make a judgment either way. Many of us simply read what was presented from both sides. Some, agreed with you or at least were inspired to at least think about the concept. Some are set in their ways and may at a later time see your point. Some may never see it. The point is, you are entitled to your opinion and without your post, none of us would be challenged to look at our system.

Had Columbus given up his ideas because of rejection we would still be falling off the edge of the world.

Dave

Thank you Dave for your piece of mind,and clarity on the subject .You are absolutely right that every one won't respond to every post,irrespective of their agreemnt or disagreement.Truly speaking,I felt hurt when one & all of the respondents tried to redicule the idea,which is present since ages!!

And I am not giving It up-not me.I am waiting for the input from the OP,and then I will present this case with more emphasis;not to prove my point(it is not worth the salt) but to make it useful for one and all.

Regards

Umang

It's natural to lose faith in the system based on something which you acknowledge isn't true? :confused: Some contributors did agree with you. You also need to remember that the proportion of the people who read these discussions but don't contribute to them by posting is very large; the number of people who actually post here is the tip of the proverbial iceberg. We have no way of knowing how many people actually agree or disagree with anything that's posted here, and it's possible that the actual majority agreed with you, and thought that I was full of horse poop. What's actually important is that we both made an effort to express reasoned opinions, and that others might have the opportunity to learn something from it.

Thanks for enlightenment.:cool:
Umang



You seem to be taking things personally. I respect you and your experience and your contributions. That doesn't mean that I always must agree with you, or that disagreement per se is not a positive force for improvement. Knowledge advances because of disagreement, not in spite of it.

No no Jim.You can't be more wrong.It's nothing personal and the I hold you in high esteem.In a healthy argument,either I agree to your point of view,or vice-versa;else,we agree to disagree.There is agreement in disagreement,so
the knowledge advances irrespective of any side of the coin facing up.

Umang



I read this as, "If you're going to make a mistake, make it by agreeing with me." In other words, you think I should look past any disagreement I might have with your ideas for fear that you might be offended by my voicing my disagreement. If my interpretation is correct, I disagree. :D

Sorry Jim,your interpretation is bordering on the farthest point of wrong side.I didn't mean it the way you are voicing it.How can you dream,I can stoop so low.It is a general proverb I've stated,in which I have explicit faith.I am sorry if it appeared to you otherwise,it was not intended.:nope:

Umang

I missed this first time around. :bonk:

Looks like someone has invented another unnecessary term. IMHO brainstorming is a means of rapidly capturing ideas - whether they be about potential problems or problem solutions.

I have used it in training FMEA for years encouraging delegates to find other potential failure modes, effects.

Don't tell me now I've been doing it wrong! :lol:

Hi Paul,

It is impossible to 'invent' anything in this universe,one can only discover or rediscover.Inverse Brainstorming is not another 'unnecessary'term,and is not in conflict with the wonderful tool called 'Brainstorming'.

No one is telling you that you have been doing it wrong by using it in FMEA.On the contrary,I am asking you to try the wonderful tool of I.B.and then decide to reject or accept it.Fair enough?!

I can understand that it is normal psycology to follow what you have been following for a long time,and the mind refuses to entertain any new entrant.But you will not be able to see green through a red goggle.Hence,you have to change your perspective,to understand others point of view.

I am not disagreeing with your stand,you are absolutely right by your lights.Still I feel,it is useful to explore this beautiful world,by unfolding a galaxy of new ideas.

Bon Voyage

Umang

Truly speaking,I felt hurt when one & all of the respondents tried to redicule the idea,which is present since ages!!

There are 57 posts in this thread as I write this (including the OP), and while there are four or five Covers (including me, of course) who disagreed with you over several posts, all of the others either agreed or didn't express an opinion one way or the other. Saying "...one & all of the respondents tried to redicule the idea..." is demonstrably wrong, not only by actual counts, but by the fact that no one, including me, tried to "redicule" anything. If there was something that I posted that you interpreted as ridicule, it certainly wasn't intended that way.

Sorry Jim,your interpretation is bordering on the farthest point of wrong side.I didn't mean it the way you are voicing it.How can you dream,I can stoop so low.It is a general proverb I've stated,in which I have explicit faith.I am sorry if it appeared to you otherwise,it was not intended.:nope:


We seem to be continually talking past one another, so I'll bid the thread adieu with a favorite old song from Dave Mason that has some relevant lyrics:

TCpQLZs2Eh8

Inverse Brainstorming is not another 'unnecessary'term,and is not in conflict with the wonderful tool called 'Brainstorming'.Sorry, this post hasn't helped me.

What is different about "inverse brainstorming" from "normal brainstorming" apart from it looks at negative aspects rather than solutions?

Sorry, this post hasn't helped me.

What is different about "inverse brainstorming" from "normal brainstorming" apart from it looks at negative aspects rather than solutions?

My take is that there is a philosophical difference. I think it will take some more enlightenment for me to get it. :( since I have low karma :(

Sorry, this post hasn't helped me.

What is different about "inverse brainstorming" from "normal brainstorming" apart from it looks at negative aspects rather than solutions?


I think we are all saying the same thing. If some want to put another term on it, that is fine. But, when I am brainstorming, I explore whatever options are relevant. If negative is appropriate, we do those too. We don't stop, and announce we shall now do "Inverse Brainstorming." We simply say, "Now, what about this aspect..."

If some folks want to make that a different exercise, OK, but that is what we mean by an "unnecessary term." We are not against the technique. I am sure most of us use it. We just don't see the need for calling it something different.

Hi Paul,

It is impossible to 'invent' anything in this universe,one can only discover or rediscover.Inverse Brainstorming is not another 'unnecessary'term,and is not in conflict with the wonderful tool called 'Brainstorming'.

No one is telling you that you have been doing it wrong by using it in FMEA.On the contrary,I am asking you to try the wonderful tool of I.B.and then decide to reject or accept it.Fair enough?!

I can understand that it is normal psycology to follow what you have been following for a long time,and the mind refuses to entertain any new entrant.But you will not be able to see green through a red goggle.Hence,you have to change your perspective,to understand others point of view.

I am not disagreeing with your stand,you are absolutely right by your lights.Still I feel,it is useful to explore this beautiful world,by unfolding a galaxy of new ideas.

Bon Voyage

Umang


Umang, I think you are taking general comments too personally. We are not against this "idea" of I.B. I think most of us use it regularly as part of brainstorming. If not, I recommend they should.

We are questioning why it needs to have a different term. It is not such a radical new concept - it is one aspect of brainstorming. Everyone should use it, but let's not make a new quality movement out of it.

There are many bright people at the Cove, and we will disagree with each other from time to time. I have argued with each of the regular posters over one thing or another over the years. The universe of ideas is an excellent forum, but w ewill never see everything the same. Take what you wish, and leave the rest. But please don't let personal feelings restrict the ability to have good discussion.

Hi all,

Firstly, Umang pl do not feel disheartened - in the Cove we have excellant discussions and sometimes exchange lot of heaty posts too ;)

But at the end of the day, the posts are all very healthy - not against the poster but on the contents of the posts. Do not take it seriously. We look forward to your active participation and continue such interesting topics.

Dear Elsmar Covers,

Its not that this is a new term but an existing term. I am attaching a pdf talking about "Oppurtunities - Obstacles Quotient" (Refer page 14)

:agree1::agree1::agree1:

I've read through (or at least tried to read through in between periods of napping from boredom) and have determined that a few of the contributors, including the original poster, might profit by getting out of the house more, expanding thier horizons and reading things other than "Quality for----" and "Statistics are our Friends" or whatever mentally confining things they read. :sarcasm:

Am I nasty and rude or what?

Guys, "Inverse brainstorming" pre-dates the "Bonze Age" and is thousands of years old.

Plato and Socrates used it in their teachings (read it, you'll find it). Sun Tsu discussed the process in "The Art of War" and if we dig deep enough there may even be mention of it on walls in ancient sites in the old cities of Karnak and Thebes in Egypt, on clay tablets found aound the ancient Caldean city of Ur and maybe in some very old sites in the Indus valley.

There is nothing new under the sun, the only things that change are the wrappers and the faces.

More recently, Robert E. Lee and General Jackson used it while sitting on a cracker box in the "wilderness", and just prior to putting the boot to Hooker, and the cold steel to his minions. :)

More recently, Robert E. Lee and General Jackson used it while sitting on a cracker box and just prior to putting the boot to Hooker and the cold steel to his minions. :)

You betcha they did!

I did it as a dumb Grunt and cop trying to catch bad guys.

I am attaching a pdf talking about "Oppurtunities - Obstacles Quotient" (Refer page 14)

:agree1::agree1::agree1:

Please re-attach.

Thx

Please re-attach.

Thx

Please see post number 2 madam.

Please see post number 2 madam.

Thx. I thought he was talking about an attachment and not a link. I was wrong.

Thx. I thought he was talking about an attachment and not a link. I was wrong.

Thanks for the reminder - I have attached the file in that post :)

Here (http://www.buffalostate.edu/orgs/cbir/readingroom/html/Steege-99.html)is an article about the origins of brainstorming (there are many others). So in advertising it started looking for a wide range of ideas for advertisements.

The technique was taken up in the 1940s for a wide range of ideas for problem solving (as part of a creative problem solving process) - at the time nobody thought to create a new sub sector "Solutions brainstorming."

But now we are using the same technique for generating a wide range of ideas for things that can go wrong it needs a new title "Inverse brainstorming" :confused:

It probably is me but I don't see the need for new terms when the old ones work fine (see other threads about 6 sigma).

Mind you, have I told you about the training company I worked for that developed and delivered a "6 sigma plus" programme, ah well, one for another day perhaps :lol: .....and yes it was exactly the same as your average 6 sigma programme.