Tomorrow I’m going to be interviewed for a QA job. It is a European company. I’m in Shanghai. People usually advise interviewees to wear western-style clothes. Gee, it’s hot summer.


How much do western interviewers care what you wear?

I can't answer your question, but what is expected in clothing in interviews in Shanghai? I would think in part it would depend upon the position one is interviewing for.

Tomorrow I’m going to be interviewed for a QA job. It is a European company. I’m in Shanghai. People usually advise interviewees to wear western-style clothes. Gee, it’s hot summer.


How much do western interviewers care what you wear?The rule of thumb in the West is to dress at least as well as the person who will be interviewing you. Do not overdress - no tuxedos or morning coats and striped pants. Above all, be neat, clean, and concentrate on what your experience and knowledge will do for the company versus what the company will do for you.

Under no circumstances should you say anything derogatory about your present employer, especially none of the stuff in your proposed memo in another thread.

If asked why you are willing to leave current employer, simply say, "The company is at a stage where it is not ready to take advantage of my experience and knowledge and I believe a company like yours can benefit more by giving me more opportunity to use my experience and knowledge."

If asked to elaborate, say, "I can't without disclosing trade secrets."
Then shut up on the topic.

If you will be interviewing at a Shanghai location of the company, call the receptionist of the company and simply ask how the interviewers dress when they conduct interviews. If the interview will be at a hotel or conference center, dress as if you are going to be going before the Board of Directors (yep - suit, tie, polished shoes)


If you have time before the interview, read through our threads on job hunting for more tips.

Luckily, you have already gotten past some of the gatekeepers before reaching the person who has the power to actually hire you.

Candidates:
Thinking about a New Job for New Year? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19619)
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19619
Resume and cover letter - How good are yours? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10169)
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10169
The Job Hunt - Care and feeding of references (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19094)
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19094
Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325)
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325

Unless it is specifically mentioned, I always wear a coat and tie. It is always better to error on the side of caution. Wearing a coat and tie may not "get" you the job, but not wearing one could potentially cost you the job.

Wayne

Having interviewed with European companies in the US - I'd say jacket and tie or whatever is the equal of a western jacket and tie in a person's cultural/geographic dress.

I've worn a full interview regalia in 95F heat and high humiditiy in an non airconditioned plant. You'll survive for a few hours. (says the guy wearing jeans, a t-shirt, and sneakers today :notme: ).

General attire for the job interviews I have attended have always been suit and tie. There's no reason you can't wear a short sleeved shirt under the suit jacket and leave the jacket and tie off till you get to the interview location. Also make sure you polish your shoes as well.

(says the guy wearing jeans, a t-shirt, and sneakers today :notme: ).

:topic: Is that the standard fashion fare in NJ? I'll have to keep that in mind when I grace your fair state with my presence in a couple of weeks.

Also make sure you polish your shoes as well.

I always ensure that I wear shoes suitable to the organization. If the position entails a close relationship with manufacturing and there is the likelihood of a tour on the interview, I always wear my steel toe "dress shoes"...considering my steel toe Pradas have yet to be designed. Showing some awareness of site safety equipment requirements is always good.

Yes! For the gentlemen, shirt, tie, jacket (which you can ask to remove during the interview, if the building doesn't have aircon) and polished shoes. No jeans, sneakers/tennis shoes.

Good luck!

:topic: Is that the standard fashion fare in NJ? I'll have to keep that in mind when I grace your fair state with my presence in a couple of weeks.

on BBQ Friday it is!

what part of NJ are you coming to?

Quickly, kudos to Wes's post. There's a lot of good stuff in there.:yes::agree1:

To answer your question, it depends on who is doing the interviewing and the job. In my opinion, most people will be turned off if it does not seem that you took the time to prepare yourself, or come in underdressed. I think most interviewers for any type of professional, degreed, etc. job would be expecting slacks, decent shoes, coat, and tie.

Is there someone at the organization (other than the person interviewing you) you might call and get some prep information?

The rule of thumb in the West is to dress at least as well as the person who will be interviewing you. Do not overdress - no tuxedos or morning coats and striped pants. Above all, be neat, clean, and concentrate on what your experience and knowledge will do for the company versus what the company will do for you.

Under no circumstances should you say anything derogatory about your present employer, especially none of the stuff in your proposed memo in another thread.

If asked why you are willing to leave current employer, simply say, "The company is at a stage where it is not ready to take advantage of my experience and knowledge and I believe a company like yours can benefit more by giving me more opportunity to use my experience and knowledge."

If asked to elaborate, say, "I can't without disclosing trade secrets."
Then shut up on the topic.

If you will be interviewing at a Shanghai location of the company, call the receptionist of the company and simply ask how the interviewers dress when they conduct interviews. If the interview will be at a hotel or conference center, dress as if you are going to be going before the Board of Directors (yep - suit, tie, polished shoes)


I think this is mostly good advice with regard to dress, unless there are regional customs that might take precedence. On the subject of what you say about leaving your last or present position, however, keep in mind that answers here are predicated on the fact that in the US, employers mostly limit the information they divulge about past employees to dates of employment, salary paid, and position(s) held. This is mainly due to fear of lawsuits, but also because of the current growing concern over privacy issues. In Shanghai, if employers are not constrained by such concerns, and are free to say more about your history with them, you would be best advised to answer questions about past employment as you think your present or past employers might answer them, and take a preemptive approach. This doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't spin things in a positive way, however.

We just had two gentlemen from Shanghai in our plant today and one was in a short sleeved white shirt and tie and the other was in a golf shirt.

Neither was interviewing for a job, however. :)

The rule of thumb in the West is to dress at least as well as the person who will be interviewing you. Do not overdress - no tuxedos or morning coats and striped pants. Above all, be neat, clean, and concentrate on what your experience and knowledge will do for the company versus what the company will do for you.

Under no circumstances should you say anything derogatory about your present employer, especially none of the stuff in your proposed memo in another thread.

If asked why you are willing to leave current employer, simply say, "The company is at a stage where it is not ready to take advantage of my experience and knowledge and I believe a company like yours can benefit more by giving me more opportunity to use my experience and knowledge."

If asked to elaborate, say, "I can't without disclosing trade secrets."
Then shut up on the topic.

If you will be interviewing at a Shanghai location of the company, call the receptionist of the company and simply ask how the interviewers dress when they conduct interviews. If the interview will be at a hotel or conference center, dress as if you are going to be going before the Board of Directors (yep - suit, tie, polished shoes)


If you have time before the interview, read through our threads on job hunting for more tips.

Luckily, you have already gotten past some of the gatekeepers before reaching the person who has the power to actually hire you.

Candidates:
Thinking about a New Job for New Year?
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19619
Resume and cover letter - How good are yours?
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10169
The Job Hunt - Care and feeding of references
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19094
Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325

This is the greatest advice. Thanks.

I spent an evening dressing myself up. Shave face, new shirt, new western-style trousers, and new shoes. It costs me about one thousand Yuan. But it turned out this invest is worthy. The first impression is invaluable. No usual suspicious looking.

I read the job descriptions several times, so that I can almost memorize them. I rehearse several times how I will react to each job description, for example, how my past experience is related, or how I’m going to handle it in the new company. It’s worth doing. My oral English is just up to communication, but I managed to answer with no crap.

The question why you leave your current job did come up. After I say the company is not ready to take full advantage of my experience and knowledge, the interviewer dig no further.

After about ten-minute short conversation, the interviewer said, “Welcome to join us.” :rolleyes:

Congratulations! We hope to see a happier Darkafar soon.

This is the greatest advice. Thanks.

Fully agreed with your view. Perhaps this should become an FAQ feature for those seeking advice on job hunting/interviews.

Congratulations! We hope to see a happier Darkafar soon.



Fully agreed with your view. Perhaps this should become an FAQ feature for those seeking advice on job hunting/interviews.

I agree :)

After about ten-minute short conversation, the interviewer said, “Welcome to join us.” :rolleyes:

Congratulations :applause:

This is the greatest advice. Thanks.

After about ten-minute short conversation, the interviewer said, “Welcome to join us.” :rolleyes:

Hello darkafar,

Well done and congratulations! :) Do you want to keep us posted about your new job?

Stijloor.

I'm glad the advice worked for you.

Clothing may have been important for the first impression, but the LASTING impression is how well the candidate answers the questions and asks his own questions DURING the interview.

The key is to think of it like a "first date" - don't waste time talking about bad dates with others, work on what you and the new date have in common! Start on a fresh page.

This advice works for the person doing the interview as well. Don't saddle the new candidate with horror stories about past hires or candidates. Maybe it might be good for a laugh AFTER the candidate has been hired and both interviewer and new hire are sharing a celebratory beverage on the one year anniversary of the hiring!

This advice works for the person doing the interview as well. Don't saddle the new candidate with horror stories about past hires or candidates.

This information can be very useful in deciding whether or not to accept a position. In fact, the interviewer can be finagled into giving up the information by asking, "What would you like to see done in this position that hasn't been done in the past?" This demonstrates interest in wanting to fulfill expectations, and also provides insight into what might have been perceived as deficiencies of previous incumbents.

This information can be very useful in deciding whether or not to accept a position. In fact, the interviewer can be finagled into giving up the information by asking, "What would you like to see done in this position that hasn't been done in the past?" This demonstrates interest in wanting to fulfill expectations, and also provides insight into what might have been perceived as deficiencies of previous incumbents.Absolutely! It is "how" the information exchange is framed which makes the difference between interviewer saying,
"We'd like to see our documentation organized and updated on a regular basis so everything is easily retrievable with the assurance it is the latest, most recent version."
VERSUS
"The last jerk we had was a slob whose idea of filing was dumping everything in a box in a corner of his cubicle and picking through when we needed something."
The difference, of course, is that one is framed in a positive, "we'd like" and the other is a negative "we'd hate."

Similarly, the candidate might ask, positively,
"What do you see as the major outcomes to consider the job performance successful?"
VERSUS
"How did the previous jerk screw up?"

This is not to say EVERY job interview is conducted in the same polite language you'd expect to encounter in a House of Worship, but it is always nice when at least one of the two (interviewer and interviewee) talks and acts like a polite, mature adult.

Hello darkafar,

Well done and congratulations! :) Do you want to keep us posted about your new job?

Stijloor.

It’s a motor company. My role is QA supervisor, reporting directly to the GM, in charge of establishing, maintaining system, and a lot of subordinates, the role of management representative prescribed in ISO 9001 (or TS) I guess.

Well done:applause:

Don't be concerned about your English because you do exceptionally well with the written part of the language.

There's no reason you can't wear a short sleeved shirt under the suit jacket.

Oh yes there is! Short sleeves under a jacket should never be worn, especially during an interview. For men, a dark suit, white (long sleeve) shirt, conservative tie and shoes you can shine are the standard. As said before your dress choice will not get you the job - but it could lose you the job.
The dress-code rule of thumb for men interviewing at most U.S. companies remains a dark suit, a light or white shirt and a bright-colored but sophisticated tie, says Patrick Dailey, a Dallas-based director of business human resources for Nokia Corp., a Finnish telecommunications company. He notes that since there are so many uncontrollable things that can work against you during job interviews, it’s wise to control what you can.

For the definative answers to ALL interviewing questions check out the Interviewing series of 15 podcasts at www.managertools.com (http://www.managertools.com) - It is more than worth the money.

Back in 1965, the uniform for anyone (male) in a white collar job (including engineers and draftsmen) was certainly dark suit (no sport coats), white shirt (no pastels or stripes), conservative tie, and lace up polished shoes (no loafers.) Executives back then were differentiated by the quality of the suit and most wore three piece (vests) suits.

More recently, at a small aerospace firm, only the CEO and the VP of marketing even OWNED a suit (lots of sports coat and blazer owners) and only the VP of marketing wore a suit more than four times per month. I exclude myself as the dinosaur who owns and wears LOTS of suits, but even I hung the suit coat on a hanger on the coat rack most of the day and wore a shop coat on the shop floor.

The plain and simple fact is that times have changed and so have attitudes about "proper dress." There is a slight chance of appearing too priggish wearing a suit to interview at "some" organizations, which is why it is just good common sense to do a little research beforehand. Even if you do wear a suit and find everyone in very casual clothes when you arrive, the polite thing is to ask, "Do you mind if I remove my suit coat?" BEFORE stripping it off. Even then, don't remove the tie even if you loosen it and collar.

Interviews on "neutral ground" (hotels, conference rooms, private clubs, airline clubs [Red Carpet, Admirals, etc.]) normally call for more formal dress on part of BOTH interviewer and interviewee.

CAVEAT:
All the conversation about suits and ties has a comparable mode of dress for females as well, tempered by local custom. Certainly, no matter how beautiful and voluptuous a woman may be, she will want to dress in a manner to emphasize her seriousness of purpose for WORK, not PLAY.

Folks applying for non "white collar" work will probably be safe wearing what has become known as "business casual" (pressed slacks or mid-length skirt and pressed shirt or blouse (no logo T-shirts or sleeveless blouses), plus clean, non-shabby shoes, no garish, clanky jewelry) and close attention to personal hygiene and grooming.

It might also be prudent to remove piercing jewelry (earrings should not be so big or flashy to focus unwanted attention on them) and cover tattoos which might normally only be exposed in brief cut swimwear. The point is to appear conservative to avoid triggering prejudice and bias before you get a chance to dazzle the interviewer with your wit and knowledge.

AFTER the interview, the candidate can make a determination whether the corporate culture is too staid and conservative for him to feel comfortable. Why do anything to alienate someone who has influence on hiring, but does not reflect the general corporate culture with which you may feel very comfortable?

Short sleeves versus long sleeves?
Use some common sense. If it is 100 degrees Fahrenheit, with no air conditioning, do you want to appear like an idiot by wearing a thick wool suit and long sleeve shirt when everyone else is wearing an open collar short sleeve shirt or blouse? Even then, no logo T-shirts or sleeveless shirts with gaping armholes.

Final caveat:
All this advice may go out the window in some countries where western dress is NOT desirable in a corporate setting.

Well done and congratulations! :) Do you want to keep us posted about your new job?
Congratulations!! I do hope you will keep us posted.:bigwave:

Congratulations!!!!

As an aside, and contrary to the experience of others here, I wore a suit and tie to the final interview before I was hired at my current company, and from the initial reaction thought that I had blown it. Should have known better. This is GA, and it gets hot. The plant is dusty. And, the only time anyone wears a suit and tie here are for funerals, weddings, and the annual stockholders' meeting (directors only). So, to echo others here, it pays to research the terrain and dress accordingly.

I was hired, with the admonition that there was a six month probationary period, during which I should leave the monkey suit at home. Broke my heart.;) :notme:

Congratulations!! I do hope you will keep us posted.:bigwave:

One month passed, I reported to this new company. I remember clearly that the GM, who interviewed me in Aug, told me I would be responsible for QA departments, and have several subordinates, the role of MR. I know this because I asked him intentionally during the interview who I was to report to, he said I was to report directly to him.

Today, a consultant guy came and occupied this job. It’s the GM’s appointment. I guess I can’t be the MR now.

I remember during the interview GM mentioned that he wanted TS certificate next March. As this company just started mass production in Aug, I told him that time is not enough as TS certification needs 12 months’ production record. He told me not to worry, as he has this consultant company.

The GM went back to him country, and won’t be back until next week.

I reviewed this new company’s system. The procedures have no interaction, and are based on TS elements. The Quality Manual has no QMS scope, and quoted almost all the TS clauses and the process map have no reference to the procedures. I want to revise the QMS document immediately, starting from the Quality Manual, the consultant guy insisted on using the documents that he established for a month.

Don’t know what other people will do in this situation. My plan is to directly tell the GM when he comes back next week that out system is not process-based, not in compliance with TS requirements. I would also show him how the Quality Manual is flawed, and see what a role he shall assign to me.

What do you think? Gee, should I just start looking for another job?

Aw, that sucks :frust:!

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing the GM that the consultant he appointed is wrong. Do you still report to the GM?

I'd say since you can't beat him, join the consultant and make him come to the same conclusions you have made. Either work with him on a TS gap analysis. Where are you lacking in procedures (and don't presume the GM understands what a process approach is)?. Include recommendations in the gap analysis in clear language: "if we don't do this, no certificate".

Alternatively, arrange for a "pre-audit" with a certification body. Do a pre-meeting with them, explaining the difficulties you are facing. Make them conclude that certification is a no-no unless they do what you say.

In other words, time for some good old political manipulation on the workfloor. Don't fight the consultant, make him work for you.

:2cents:

Western wear-

Personally, when speaking with the potential companies HR department I always asked what the facility dress code is. This way you can assure you are not under dressed for the interview and it tells them that you are looking ahead and preparing yourself. But I have always used as a minimum khaki dress pants and a nice collared shirt.

One month passed, I reported to this new company. I remember clearly that the GM, who interviewed me in Aug, told me I would be responsible for QA departments, and have several subordinates, the role of MR. I know this because I asked him intentionally during the interview who I was to report to, he said I was to report directly to him.

Today, a consultant guy came and occupied this job. It’s the GM’s appointment. I guess I can’t be the MR now.

I remember during the interview GM mentioned that he wanted TS certificate next March. As this company just started mass production in Aug, I told him that time is not enough as TS certification needs 12 months’ production record. He told me not to worry, as he has this consultant company.

The GM went back to him country, and won’t be back until next week.

I reviewed this new company’s system. The procedures have no interaction, and are based on TS elements. The Quality Manual has no QMS scope, and quoted almost all the TS clauses and the process map have no reference to the procedures. I want to revise the QMS document immediately, starting from the Quality Manual, the consultant guy insisted on using the documents that he established for a month.

Don’t know what other people will do in this situation. My plan is to directly tell the GM when he comes back next week that out system is not process-based, not in compliance with TS requirements. I would also show him how the Quality Manual is flawed, and see what a role he shall assign to me.

What do you think? Gee, should I just start looking for another job?

Ok, now I'm confused as ever. What purpose/job title/ whatever were you given coming into this? What has traspired in the month? Anything?

Well, this is turning out to be a drama isn't it? :mg:

The GM's confidence in this consultant may be based on any number of factors, but I wonder: did he make the documentation, complete with the frailties you outlined?

It could be an interesting audit. Its outcome will probably influence the consultant's longetivity. I think it is too soon to bail out on this employer. Instead, I recommend you keep a specific list of QMS things you would like to improve, and keep the list handy but do not share it just yet. You could even draft a prospective timeline of making the changes, list of who would do what, and the expected benefits.

If, after this audit, you are asked for input, you can pull out the plan and be ready to discuss it. If your employer views these plans as the contribution of an internal consultant and asks you to deploy the actions, your conditions may improve. If, on the other hand, you are not asked for input and the consultant seems firmly rooted there yet performs poorly, you can quietly seek out new employment.

But here's the deal: Finding an employer that has its act entirely together is a monumental task. Even the companies with great reputations can have serious QMS issues that are just not plain until a truly knowledgeable person gets in there and reveals things as they actually are: in need of improvement. In such a case the matter becomes one of getting it done. It can take a long time, and requires a good deal of patience.

So, to sum it up, do not rush to judgement of this company. I've seen a lot of quality systems, and can assure you that all have problems of somekind, often involving personalities involved. How to define good employment is up to you, but do not expect unrealistic things from anybody. :2cents:

Jennifer... awesome as always. 100% agreement, but I have to ask:

What's he suppose to do? Two's company-three's a crowd.

Jennifer... awesome as always. 100% agreement, but I have to ask:

What's he suppose to do? Two's company-three's a crowd.Thanks Brad... I just think he should wait until after the audit and see what, if anything, happens with this consultant. If the audit goes badly because the consultant has performed poorly and he is still kept in that position, I would conclude his being there is due to reason(s) besides an earnest wish for QMS performance, and I would then quietly seek new placement.

If, on the other hand, the consultant is pushed to the side where he belongs (I do NOT think a consultant should be MR) an opportunity to assume the role of change agent could open up. If Darkafar is ready with the right things to offer, the job could reshape favorably.

I just think there is still more to find out: whether the GM's loyalty is to the consultant or to the good of the QMS.

Aw, that sucks :frust:!

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing the GM that the consultant he appointed is wrong. Do you still report to the GM?

I reported to my duty since Oct 8. I haven’t met the GM since I reported my duty. Based on our interview agreement, yes, I still report directly to GM. Yesterday the QA manager (the consultant guy) wanted me to report job to him, I refused, and told him that I’m not his subordinate.


I'd say since you can't beat him, join the consultant and make him come to the same conclusions you have made. Either work with him on a TS gap analysis. Where are you lacking in procedures (and don't presume the GM understands what a process approach is)?. Include recommendations in the gap analysis in clear language: "if we don't do this, no certificate".

I can’t join him. I can’t agree with his system and the way he build system. His approach is to make procedures, train the employees to follow the procedures. My approach is to consult everybody involved when making procedure, and when the procedure is finished, the relevant person has already know how to follow the procedures, so there is no need to arrange procedure training. The QA manager has made it clear that I was not to change his documents for at least one month.

I guess I don’t have many choices. I have to beat him, or I have to lay low until I find a new job.

Ok, now I'm confused as ever. What purpose/job title/ whatever were you given coming into this? What has traspired in the month? Anything?

This is the job I applied for -- Quality Manager/Specialist

This is the job description:
1.To coordinate the activities of the quality-control departments in the division’s production plants and central services
2.In order to achieve, through continuous improvement in systems and organizations, sustained reductions of quality costs and to guarantee customer satisfaction and company profitability.
3.To implement and ensure compliance with company policies in terms of quality.
4.To define, design and implement the quality indicators required to correctly control and assess products and processes.
5.To follow up qualitative results in the production plants: reporting system.
6.To improve results in terms of product quality in the plants and the division.
7.To represent the company in quality-related matters during high-level meetings with customers.
8.To participate in the quality committee representing the interests of the division on corporate level.
9.To establish an organization of the quality area in the plants.
10.To ensure the Organization meet the requirements of TS16949
11.To supervise IQC Supervisor, Quality engineer, and P&F QC engineers

I was offered this job.

But now it seems clear that my job function will not be the same as the job description.

I don't know what happened in this company last month. I was fulfilling my job transfer duty as agreed in another company.

Well, this is turning out to be a drama isn't it? :mg:

The GM's confidence in this consultant may be based on any number of factors, but I wonder: did he make the documentation, complete with the frailties you outlined?

The contract signed between the company and the consultant company is based on project. Rumor says the consultant company guarantees this company will pass TS audit and get TS certificate.

He did not make the procedures personally. He directed his subordinates to make the procedures.


It could be an interesting audit. Its outcome will probably influence the consultant's longetivity. I think it is too soon to bail out on this employer. Instead, I recommend you keep a specific list of QMS things you would like to improve, and keep the list handy but do not share it just yet. You could even draft a prospective timeline of making the changes, list of who would do what, and the expected benefits.

The QA manager (consultant) knows his system is not good. He just doesn’t want me to change his procedures. The procedures have not been released yet, but will be released today. He said it is to let the employees have a system, and when everybody is familiar with the system, and then they shall improve the system.

I told him why we don’t make the system better before releasing them, he refuse to listen.


I recommend you keep a specific list of QMS things you would like to improve, and keep the list handy but do not share it just yet.
I think this is a good advice.


But here's the deal: Finding an employer that has its act entirely together is a monumental task. Even the companies with great reputations can have serious QMS issues that are just not plain until a truly knowledgeable person gets in there and reveals things as they actually are: in need of improvement. In such a case the matter becomes one of getting it done. It can take a long time, and requires a good deal of patience.
This is a good advice too. I will keep it in mind. I’m not comfortable with this situation, but it’s life.

If, on the other hand, the consultant is pushed to the side where he belongs (I do NOT think a consultant should be MR) an opportunity to assume the role of change agent could open up. .
The consultant became a formal member of this company. I don’t know if he still holds his job in the consultant company. I don’t know how the company arranged this. But I do know this happened in September (after the GM decided to hire me).

darkafar - I personally agree with the way you want to do things...BUT... this sounds like a fight you are not going to win. A guarantee of certification, as unethical as that sounds to me, must sound pretty good to your boss. Does this consultant have a track record of achieving certification, and what is your experience? It sounds like you are going to have to find a way to work with him.

My thoughts are this - You have nearly 6 months before March so there will be time to make some changes to 'his' system. I would leave some 'bedding in' time for the new processes (and his idea of one month sounds OK)..THEN do some internal audits to see what is actually happening. Most likely is that some practices will shift back towards the old way but there might also have been some adoption of the new ideas.
Then change the documentation to describe the way things are really happening.
Around December/January I would try to arrange for a preliminary audit to make sure that the gaps are closed and that the records your are keeping are going to work.

Make sure you are documenting all that you are doing to try and save the situation - and if things still don't work you will have something positive you have tried to do to show propestive employers.

Good input from James. :agree:

This drama could yet take a hard twist through the TS registration process. It's not good news that this consultant fellow has been taken on as a staff member, but this may have happened because having a consultant as a MR might not pass the straight face test. :rolleyes:

So there you are, basically placed on a short leash and knowing the system has distinct frailties that would make it less than effective (the procedures). This must feel very bad. No one likes to ride a sinking ship. However, the thing may take some time to sink--during the recert perhaps.

If matters with the Quality Manager and this consultant fellow remain the same, I would find it difficult to stay.

Yesterday, at about 2:00 PM the QA manager asked the GM assistant to phone GM to clarify my role, at about 4:00 PM I sent out my review of our system to GM, at about 4:30 PM, the GM assistant confirmed GM’s intention that I report to the QA manager, This morning the QA arranged a meeting with the consultant company, one of them confirmed my judgment that the system’s process-approach has some problem., and they talked about adjusting the TS accreditation date. The GM assistant phoned me at 11:00 AM, that the GM have received my review report, and will review it today.

God knows what will happen. If the GM asks me for my opinion, I will insist reporting directly to him. I don’t think I can get along well under this QA manager’s supervision. Damn it, I have to learn a system that is far inferior than what I built.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

darkafar - I personally agree with the way you want to do things...BUT... this sounds like a fight you are not going to win. A guarantee of certification, as unethical as that sounds to me, must sound pretty good to your boss. Does this consultant have a track record of achieving certification, and what is your experience? It sounds like you are going to have to find a way to work with him.

They gave me a copy of the contract. Yes, they guarantee certification in the contract. Today they were talking about revising the contract.

The QA manager (consultant) has 8 years experience in consultant business.

My experience is nothing with bragging. I graduated in 1999, worked 4 years as QC and learned nothing. I hated factory. I don’t want my fate to be bended with a stupid factory. Finally I left, looking for a freer job. I didn’t get it. two years later, I reentered a factory, did QA job, and I found I love it. QA skills can be used in any factory, so my fate is not bended with one factory, I get some freedom, and I did quite well. When I decided to leave, the GM and almost all the employees feasted me.

Tomorrow there might be an opportunity to beat him.

Last week the QA manager arranged an Internal Audit plan, he asked me to make the plan, when I finished the plan, he did not like it, and he changed it.

I oppose this audit plan from begining, on the ground that our system is highly immature, the flaws are obvious, but he insisted, he said there was a customer coming soon, and the customer would like to see a finished audit. The audit is going to be conducted by department.

He said he would take me and another QA to the GM's office to talk about the plan.

If he indeed take me to the GM's office, I'm going to challenge him in the meeting.
I have two reasons:
One: He said the audit is to find inprovement opportunities. My point is that since flaws are obvious, there is no need to conduct an audit. If he said it is a customer order, I would challenge him to show evidence. I think customer cares about the effectiveness of a system more than an audit show.
Two: His audit plan violates the process-approach audit rule stated in Rules for achieving IATF recogtnition page 31, "The Automotive Process Approach to auditing for ISO/TS 16949:2002 must not be driven by a 'clause' or a "section" driven checklist. It is better to tell the customer that the timing is not right to arrange a proper audit than to show them that we don't know how to conduct process-approach audit.

This QA manager have also made two rules for me last week, one of them is "Speak less, do more", the other is "QA must speak with one united voice to outsider"

I'm going to challenge these two rules too.

My counter point to "Speak less, do more":
If we don't communicate, how do we know we are doing the right thing?

My counter point to "QA must speak with one united voice to outsider":
If QAs can't reach consensus, whose voice is to be heard?

I think the QA manager would be dead if these happen.

I mentioned earlier that I sent the GM a system review report, which not only revealed some obvious flaws, but also quoted the rules of TS certificating. As a professional consultant company, they should knew that this organization could not pass TS certification audit in March, yet they guaranteed it. This is cheating in my view.

The GM should be able to see this.

How do you think?

Tomorrow there might be an opportunity to beat him.

Last week the QA manager arranged an Internal Audit plan, he asked me to make the plan, when I finished the plan, he did not like it, and he changed it.

I oppose this audit plan from begining, on the ground that our system is highly immature, the flaws are obvious, but he insisted, he said there was a customer coming soon, and the customer would like to see a finished audit. The audit is going to be conducted by department.

He said he would take me and another QA to the GM's office to talk about the plan.

If he indeed take me to the GM's office, I'm going to challenge him in the meeting.
I have two reasons:
One: He said the audit is to find inprovement opportunities. My point is that since flaws are obvious, there is no need to conduct an audit. If he said it is a customer order, I would challenge him to show evidence. I think customer cares about the effectiveness of a system more than an audit show.
Two: His audit plan violates the process-approach audit rule stated in Rules for achieving IATF recogtnition page 31, "The Automotive Process Approach to auditing for ISO/TS 16949:2002 must not be driven by a 'clause' or a "section" driven checklist. It is better to tell the customer that the timing is not right to arrange a proper audit than to show them that we don't know how to conduct process-approach audit.

This QA manager have also made two rules for me last week, one of them is "Speak less, do more", the other is "QA must speak with one united voice to outsider"

I'm going to challenge these two rules too.

My counter point to "Speak less, do more":
If we don't communicate, how do we know we are doing the right thing?

My counter point to "QA must speak with one united voice to outsider":
If QAs can't reach consensus, whose voice is to be heard?

I think the QA manager would be dead if these happen.

I mentioned earlier that I sent the GM a system review report, which not only revealed some obvious flaws, but also quoted the rules of TS certificating. As a professional consultant company, they should knew that this organization could not pass TS certification audit in March, yet they guaranteed it. This is cheating in my view.

The GM should be able to see this.

How do you think?
FROM MY PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW:
After reading this post, I think you are on track to committing career suicide.

Some of the phrases you use here are contrary to the spirit of modern business thinking, let alone long-time (at least the past 50 years) Quality thinking.

You profess to ask for "proof" I would challenge him to show evidence. I think customer cares about the effectiveness of a system more than an audit show. and yet you offer none of your own, only unsupported "think" about what everyone else REALLY wants.

In point of fact, some customers REALLY seek the truth, supported by evidence of a formal audit report, of the current status of a Quality System. If the system is, in fact, "broken,"as you claim, the audit report will show that, but the customer should be VERY INTERESTED in the plan the organization has to fix the breaks, the timetable for doing so, and the "mile markers" along the way to demonstrate the plan is on track and working according to the plan timetable.

The attitude displayed by this comment I think the QA manager would be dead if these happen.
would get you fired in many organizations if such a comment got back to the bosses. This is not "team thinking." Phrases and words such as "cheating," "the flaws are obvious" are inflammatory and work only to cause dissension, not consensus, within the organization.

I agree with the statement One: He said the audit is to find inprovement opportunities. but NOT with My point is that since flaws are obvious, there is no need to conduct an audit.If the flaws are "obvious," they ought to be documented as a baseline against which to measure effectiveness of improvement initiatives.

All in all, I think you need to take a deep breath and a reality check before going forward with your action as you have outlined it here.

Tomorrow there might be an opportunity to beat him.

The fact that you consider this to be a competition, and you're competing against people who are higher on the ladder than you are, does not bode well for your chances of success, I'm afraid.

Last week the QA manager arranged an Internal Audit plan, he asked me to make the plan, when I finished the plan, he did not like it, and he changed it.

I oppose this audit plan from begining, on the ground that our system is highly immature, the flaws are obvious, but he insisted, he said there was a customer coming soon, and the customer would like to see a finished audit. The audit is going to be conducted by department.

Because he's the manager, it's his prerogative to change the plan. If you disagree with his changes and rationally expressed your disagreement, then all you can do is hope that the results support your position.


He said he would take me and another QA to the GM's office to talk about the plan.
If he indeed take me to the GM's office, I'm going to challenge him in the meeting.
I have two reasons:
One: He said the audit is to find inprovement opportunities. My point is that since flaws are obvious, there is no need to conduct an audit. If he said it is a customer order, I would challenge him to show evidence. I think customer cares about the effectiveness of a system more than an audit show.
Two: His audit plan violates the process-approach audit rule stated in Rules for achieving IATF recogtnition page 31, "The Automotive Process Approach to auditing for ISO/TS 16949:2002 must not be driven by a 'clause' or a "section" driven checklist. It is better to tell the customer that the timing is not right to arrange a proper audit than to show them that we don't know how to conduct process-approach audit.

If there is a meeting with the GM, do not go into it with a chip on your shoulder. Personally, I would avoid the meeting altogether and just let the manager's plan succeed or fail on its own merits. There's little to be gained in demonstrating to the GM that there's dissension in the ranks. If you've explained your position to the QA manager, and he understands your misgivings, one of three things is likely to happen in a meeting with the GM:
The GM will favor your position and overrule the QA manager
The GM will favor the manager's position
The GM will tell you both to go settle the matter for yourselvesNone of are likely be good outcomes for you. If #1 happens, then your manager might feel that he's lost face, lacks the support of his boss, and take it out on you somewhere down the road. If #2 happens, the GM's image of you might suffer. Of course, it's possible that the GM will be impressed by your willingness to defend your position, but it's not likely, in my experience. The GM is likely to take the path of least resistance. If it's #3, you're right back where you started.

This QA manager have also made two rules for me last week, one of them is "Speak less, do more", the other is "QA must speak with one united voice to outsider"

I'm going to challenge these two rules too.

My counter point to "Speak less, do more":
If we don't communicate, how do we know we are doing the right thing?

My counter point to "QA must speak with one united voice to outsider":
If QAs can't reach consensus, whose voice is to be heard?

I think the QA manager would be dead if these happen.

While it's impossible for us to discern the QA manager's motivations and competence from this vantage point, "Speak less, do more" might be his way of telling you that you're complaining too much, and not being respectful of his authority. Again, it might be best to let him make his own mistakes, and then, rather than saying "I told you so," ask him how things might have been done differently. Instead of loudly proclaiming your own knowledge, you might want to try working with him and letting him think that he's the one with the good ideas. If you want to see the QA manager "dead," make sure that your gun isn't pointed at your own feet.

I mentioned earlier that I sent the GM a system review report, which not only revealed some obvious flaws, but also quoted the rules of TS certificating. As a professional consultant company, they should knew that this organization could not pass TS certification audit in March, yet they guaranteed it. This is cheating in my view.

The GM should be able to see this.

If the flaws are indeed "obvious," what makes you think that you're the only one who can see them? Just because someone chooses a different strategy than yours doesn't mean that they don't understand the issues. You have to be aware of the politics involved, and the fact that when there is an "obvious" flaw that a knowledgeable person doesn't seem to recognize, there might be motives at work that you don't understand. Forcing a boss to "see" something that he's already seen but is in denial about is likely to have untoward consequences.

Hello darkafar,

Your friends here at The Cove want to see you being successful at your current job. Many here have "guided" you from preparing for the interview all the way to your hiring at your current organization. Take the advice from Wes and Jim provided in the posts above to heart. You'll be much better off.

Wishing you wisdom and success.

Stijloor.

Darkafar,

I truly understand your position, and will say that I am not without empathy, as I have been there before. I will offer you my opinion, as one man coming from my perspective, with my value system, etc. My opinion is not in stark constrast to the other really good posts today; just thought I would give you one more. In the end, you will have to meditate upon your decision, make it, and don't look back.

I would promptly apologize to the QA manager for causing any inconvenience, not say a word and do what is asked (as long as it's legal and does not cross ethical lines). If you have the meeting with the president, I would say you will be fully supporting the QA manager in their job. NOTE: That does not infer agreement with the plan or happiness with the situation.

Here's the thing: The Plant Manager hired this person as the QA manager for the reason they want them to handle things. There is a certain implied confidence and trust within that. (As as aside, I still don't see why in the world they brought you in and hire this person; but that is another matter). As long as that confidence/trust is not breached in the eyes of the GM, any resistance or problems on your part will reflect on you; not on the new QA manager. Even if it appears in the meeting the GM is concerned about your thoughts, no good will come of it with the QA manager sitting there.

However, if things start going wrong, there is a chance that the GM will remember why he hired you in the first place and give you a shot. If the GM is really concerned with your thoughts/opinions, he will contact you outside the presence of the QA manager.

If you have the insight into auditing and quality systems that you reflect in your posts, you should find another job ASAP with no problem. Leave on good terms, and in one year, that GM may be knocking on your door, offering you 30% more:).

We know you're upset. However, you must find ways of getting over it and not let it show up in your new position. Exercise equipment/ a boxing punching bag at the house might do the trick!:D

I read the job descriptions several times, so that I can almost memorize them. I rehearse several times how I will react to each job description, for example, how my past experience is related, or how I’m going to handle it in the new company. It’s worth doing. My oral English is just up to communication, but I managed to answer with no crap.

The question why you leave your current job did come up. After I say the company is not ready to take full advantage of my experience and knowledge, the interviewer dig no further.

After about ten-minute short conversation, the interviewer said, “Welcome to join us.”

It’s a motor company. My role is QA supervisor, reporting directly to the GM, in charge of establishing, maintaining system, and a lot of subordinates, the role of management representative prescribed in ISO 9001 (or TS) I guess.

OK, I realize that hiring practices could very well be different from country to country. Having said that, exactly what were you hired for? What did they tell you that you were hired to do? Did you just assume the quoted job information, or was that clearly communicated to you?

OK, I realize that hiring practices could very well be different from country to country. Having said that, exactly what were you hired for? What did they tell you that you were hired to do? Did you just assume the quoted job information, or was that clearly communicated to you?

The job description is quite clear in my view, so I did not ask further during the interview. The president did not further elucidate either.

See your point. You are worring about managment losing face, or breaking team spirit. These are valid concerns I guess. Ok I gave up the plan. If they asked my opinion, I would simply say it is not process-approach audit. If they don't ask me, I will keep my mouth shut.

by the way, I offered the GM the proofs. I quoted from the standard, the rules. The GM should see this, I should not need to show more evidences.

The GM did not come back. I showed this QA manager the TS rules for certification, and told him we should not use department driven audit plan. He claimed the rules I showed him is outdated. :cool:

The book I showed him is Automotive certification scheme for ISO/TS 16949:2002 (Rules for achieving IATF recognition) released in 2004.:D

He said the best way to conduct system audit is to audit by clauses. He mentioned a TS checklist that is not used any more.

First, my condolences on the situation you find yourself in, as opposed to the situation you thought you'd be in.

One thing that I have to ask about the audits is this: Is the QA Manager auditing to the clauses in order to prepare a gap analysis? If so, I see no problem with starting there, you can always add process audits after you find the places where the standard is not being met.

Another thing that I question is your belief that as a management representative (at least I think that is what you are talking about) you cannot report to a QA Manager for your day to day job. You can. I did for years, my EMS MR reports to a department manager for his day to day job, and the GM for EMS. It happens, and it happens often. The only reason why I report fully to the GM now is that my sole function is to coordinate efforts for all things ISO, or other certification/registration schemes.

If you cannot work with the manager, then you should probably go ahead and start looking, but, while you are there, you should try to learn as much as possible. As previously stated, it appears that your disagreement with the way things are being handled is clouding your judgement.

Good luck, I wish you the best.

Darkafar - I feel very sad for you with the position you are in.
However, as the others have said here, you need to slow down and work WITH this other person. Even if things go wrong you need to show for your next job interviews that you did all that you could do to make things work out - this is not the type of career to be so confrontational.

I appreciate your enthusiasim and desire for things to be right - but this takes time and in the companies eyes (at this moment) it is about money - getting your certification means getting more contracts which means more money - the how of getting your certification does not matter to them yet. You need to accept what is happening now and make changes later - think of it as Continuous Improvement (any lucky you, there will be plenty of areas to improve:tg:).

First, my condolences on the situation you find yourself in, as opposed to the situation you thought you'd be in.

One thing that I have to ask about the audits is this: Is the QA Manager auditing to the clauses in order to prepare a gap analysis? If so, I see no problem with starting there, you can always add process audits after you find the places where the standard is not being met.



No. The purpose of the audit was to teach other departments to follow procedures. After I expressed my opinion several times, the purpose is changed into "To verify the understanding of quality management system documents and communicate; To find improvement opportunities."

Thanks for the friends who have supported me so far. I think I have a better understanding of your warning over my overaction now.
For reason 1: Nobody like people who badmouths others, because they would be cautious if this person would badmouth him.
For reason 2: Nobody like to be pushed. If I keep complaining, they would feel pushed.

In retrospection, I think my performance is fine. I did not say anything bad about the QA manager. I only say the system he established is bad.

I think my friends here would like to know how it ends.

Here is the ending:

The GM invited me into his office, told me he would not treat me like second-class employee. Any thing I want to do, he supports it. Any dispute with my direct supervisor, let him know. He also arranged a QA expert from USA to come here to make an appraise of our system. But I still do assignment from the QA manager.

The GM is very concerned to get TS registered.

Truth will out anyway.

Darkafar, I am happy for you for several reasons.

1. You were smart enough to ask for advice, and use it.
2. You created a workable situation. You minimized this being personal, and kept it purely professional. There's a huge difference between :The QA manager doesn't know what he is doing

and

I am concerned about the effectiveness of the quality system in satisfying....


Do touch base with us and let us know how things are going. Good luck!

Hi darkafar,
To a certain degree you're right, but you don't understand something what the management concerned. Some managers care for the result, some care for the process, and the others care for the result as well as the process. I don't know which type your GM belongs to. If you don't want to lose your opinion, you'd better lay it on the line. Not need civil war, the certification is the most important.