I fired a client last week. This is something I find hard to do, and have done only on very rare occasions. (But I've got much better at vetting potential clients before I accept them.)

I had had misgivings for quite some time. IMO, the main weakness stemmed from where it usually does (at the very top). And that certainly wasn't going to change. So after working at it for a considerable period of time, and attempting a number of strategies, I realised I had neither confidence in nor respect for their top management, and thus I really didn't feel good about working with them. At which point I terminated the engagement.

Now obviously, I've spent some time thinking it over, including action/s to make such an engagement even less likely in future. But I'm interested in other points of view, to hear if/when other consultants have fired clients. I'm defining 'firing' here as choosing to terminate an engagement and voluntarily ceasing to work with a client.

Have you ever done so? If so, when? Do you find it easy or hard? What criteria did you apply? And how did you disengage?

Never fired a client, no. But, from your description it looks like you did the right thing. :applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

You go girl :D

In my 20 years as a Quality Systems Consultant, I did not FIRE a client but I did refused to be associated with them. Maybe that could be considered the same.

In one case, I developed an ISO 9000 system and prior to their 3rd party audit, I reviewed their internal audit. I found that they had fudged a lot of data. I was to be onsite as an observer during the audit but declined. As a Consultant, my reputation is vital and never get involved in a company that fudges records.

In the second case, I was developing an QS9000 system and was just about completed but the system was stalled. I had a "job jar" where the company was to do some tasks prior to my returning but they were not being accomplished. I was getting a phone call the day prior to my visit to make sure that I brought my tennis equipment so we could play doubles and have supper together (I like tennis too) but no movement in the system. The final straw was when they hired a new Quality Manager who had never worked in the field before and he decided he knew more about quality than I did with over 30 years experience. I am outa there!!!

I fired a client last week. This is something I find hard to do, and have done only on very rare occasions. (But I've got much better at vetting potential clients before I accept them.)

I had had misgivings for quite some time. IMO, the main weakness stemmed from where it usually does (at the very top). And that certainly wasn't going to change. So after working at it for a considerable period of time, and attempting a number of strategies, I realised I had neither confidence in nor respect for their top management, and thus I really didn't feel good about working with them. At which point I terminated the engagement.

Now obviously, I've spent some time thinking it over, including action/s to make such an engagement even less likely in future. But I'm interested in other points of view, to hear if/when other consultants have fired clients. I'm defining 'firing' here as choosing to terminate an engagement and voluntarily ceasing to work with a client.

Have you ever done so? If so, when? Do you find it easy or hard? What criteria did you apply? And how did you disengage?I can deal with ignorance and low mental capacity, but catching the client (the top guy or his Board of Directors) lying to me about material facts calls for a very instantaneous "sit down" to clear the air. Only once (nearly thirty years ago in my investment banking days) has that not turned things back in the proper direction. We not only terminated that relationship, but we sued and won (in settlement) for the fee we would have earned in a successful IPO. In that case, there was a serious case of fraud in their plans, thwarted by our action. Being pragmatic, we did not have to mention the fraud conspiracy in our court pleading - the mere hint of publicity surrounding a court action was sufficient to prod them into settlement.

As you point out, each instance of a "breakdown" makes the consultant/advisor much smarter in Contract Review BEFORE getting caught in a bad situation. One of the great levelers is a VERY "up front" list of intolerable actions by either client or advisor, spelled out in terms of money forfeiture.

Side note - I expect lies from staff who are fearful of losing their "comfort zone." I see part of my task as being up front with the staff telling them frankly whether the job is on the line or not. Mostly - I try to make the comfort zone "future picture" a mutually desired goal and actually set up severance and relocation systems if divisions or departments will be closed. Truth eliminates lots of fear of the unknown and eliminates a lot of sabotage of the change initiative.

Everything a consultant does depends on an open and honest relationship with the top managers of the client.

Note this all applies to true consultants/advisors, not to "contract workers" or temporary workers who are merely there in place of a full time employee.

Contract workers are often employed by middle managers, not top managers. Contract workers are rarely change managers and rarely set their own agendas, often working under direction to someone else's plan.

I'm not a consultant so I never "fired a client", but I'm sure most of us have all been in employment situations where we reached a point of having just having to move on. I know I have been.

It appears you did everything possible and then made the only honorable choice open to you. And you will be a better consultant for it.
You held your principles and good name at the expense of an unworthy client and that, my friend, is a good bargain.

James

Friends,

I found this interesting: http://www.consultantjournal.com/blog/fire-your-customers-or-dont-fire-your-customers.

Stijloor.

Fire a client? Not that I can recall.

I did one time, while working for another CB, witness the Lead Auditor after a closing meeting ended real early tell the owner of a company to commit an un-natural sexual act with himself. That might be the same thing. (The lead auditor also owned the CB so he didn't get fired).

Randy's story reminds me of the concept that since we (consultants, advisors, auditors, etc.) are only on site for a short time, we have the luxury of knowing we CAN leave and don't have to hang around and suffer repeated abuse from clients. Therefore, the most satisfying punishment for an advisor to give to an abuser is to simply walk away and let him abuse the empty space where you were. Especially at my age, I don't have to strut and pose as "macho man" and curse at a guy or offer to thrash him to get "one up." My latest tactic is to interrupt such an abuser (on the job or in a saloon) in mid tirade and say, "Gosh. I just don't have time to hear the end of this. Goodby."

Yeah, the Lead essentially said the CB didn't need the business. This was the audit where even though the recommendation was for certification the MR got fired at the closing meeting.

HOLY! And I thought I have worked for some rude, ignorant, pompous people in my past (early in my career when I had to take the abuse to get the experience). Although, for those people I might have said "thank you" if they did that.

HOLY! And I thought I have worked for some rude, ignorant, pompous people in my past (early in my career when I had to take the abuse to get the experience). Although, for those people I might have said "thank you" if they did that.When I went to college, the fraternity scene was closing down on the physical abuse handed out to pledges for hazing. I recall at least two fraternities which still gave pledges a cricket bat emblazoned with the fraternity logo. Pledges were required to carry the bat and submit to a "swat" for an infraction of the hokey "rules" for pledges. After the swat, they were required to say, "Thank you, sir. May I have another?" (which they usually got!)

My fraternity did not do that, nor could any of the "old boys" remember it as a practice in our fraternity house, but admitted our fraternity on some campuses were still doing it up through 1955. The house decorations included cricket bats up through the Class of '38, but none for classes post WWII.

When I went to college, the fraternity scene was closing down on the physical abuse handed out to pledges for hazing. I recall at least two fraternities which still gave pledges a cricket bat emblazoned with the fraternity logo. Pledges were required to carry the bat and submit to a "swat" for an infraction of the hokey "rules" for pledges. After the swat, they were required to say, "Thank you, sir. May I have another?" (which they usually got!)

My fraternity did not do that, nor could any of the "old boys" remember it as a practice in our fraternity house, but admitted our fraternity on some campuses were still doing it up through 1955. The house decorations included cricket bats up through the Class of '38, but none for classes post WWII.

gKpKSZGSkuo

My "thank you" would have been more along the lines of "thank you for releasing me from prison".

Interesting responses - thanks people.

In my 20 years as a Quality Systems Consultant, I did not FIRE a client but I did refused to be associated with them. Maybe that could be considered the same.
I see them as the the same thing. A voluntary decision to withdraw from/terminate a relationship - ie, not initiated by the client.

I agree, for a consultant, reputation is vital. The MD of the client I mentioned was pushing to begin sign up with certifier - and not only were they far from ready, but I definitely wasn't willing to have my name & thus reputation associated with them.

I found that they had fudged a lot of data. I was to be onsite as an observer during the audit but declined. As a Consultant, my reputation is vital and never get involved in a company that fudges records.
Yikes, indeed not! I won't have anything to do with dishonesty either. I'd have made the same decision you did in both cases.

An earlier client I fired was one I'd worked with for a couple of years, during which I helped them turn a dreadful cumbersome pile of *&^%$ (though certified! heaven knows how) into a streamlined & functional, clear system.

They wanted me to continue helping with various internal projects, as well as acting as their QM and internal auditor. Two things happened: a/ I realised that there was quite some disparity between the stated policies and 'people values' and also a lot of blame going on - by the GM and of everyone else. ('Teamwork' really did mean 'do it my way'. And when push came to shove, forget some of those values). And b/during an internal audit, I discovered a senior manager there was regularly reporting completely false figures on returned products (very low figures reported... but a shelf crammed with them in the warehouse). This was just the last of a series of lies he'd been telling for a long time - but the GM 'couldn't decide' what to do.

Initially I had thought the blame thing might be changeable. Nope. He didn't want to even consider it, took refuge in claimed ignorance. And when that didn't work, anger. I struggled a little longer, and then decided it was a lost cause. Wrote a very clear summary of what had been done, what was still to be accomplished... and the top issues I thought needed to be dealt with & why, relating all back to the published company policy & values (ie, disparity between). Setting the bridge thoroughly alight :)

I am outa there!!!

Indeed yes.

Liked Wes' technique too - good one. And I agree with his clear separation of a true consultant/advisor from a contract worker ( in essence 'a pair of hands').

As a consultant, I consider I have a responsibility to act as a model of the values and behaviours I espouse. And if a particular engagement brings up a 'values conflict', then it's something I have to deal with. For me, I think the conflict in values is between my commitment to help the client and get them to their defined goal (something I take seriously), and my commitment to my own values and ethics. In some ways, it felt like 'letting the client down' to terminate the engagement. But I also felt it would have been dishonest to have continued, given the opinion that I had formed. WDYT?

:topic: Way, way :topic:

Wes is a Frat Rat?

Did you wear a beanie and a striped sweater?

:topic: Way, way :topic:

Wes is a Frat Rat?

Did you wear a beanie and a striped sweater?Just the pin. I was a jock and nobody wanted to mess with me. Of all the fraternities, I managed to choose the one with the worst food! I stayed in the school dorm with a private room, maid service, and great food instead of moving into the frat house with one or two roomies. My ostensible excuse was "jock training table." The frat house was great for the bar and parties.

I was on an academic scholarship, not athletic.

:topic: Way, way :topic:



No kidding. Not even within coo-ee.

(Don't understand what I'm saying? Snap.)

No kidding. Not even within coo-ee.

(Don't understand what I'm saying? Snap.)Is that like "Soo-ey" for pigs in Arkansas?

I had one instance where things were going tough. The client was just not gettng anywhere. The MR was at his wits end because of one manager who absolutely refused to cooperate in any form, figure or fashion. This caused other managers to drag their feet on key issues.

The result was we were way behind schedule. I was diligent in pointing out our falling behind on a weekly basis, and top management kept promising to get things done. Things came to a head during a meeting arranged by the MR between top management (read owner) and that particular manager. At one point, the MR had to leave the room to get some paperwork. The owner told the manager to lay off the MR. Although this entire QS (kinda dates the story) thing was a farce, the customer required it. He did not expect the manager to really do anything, but instead asked him to “humor” the MR until the entire thing blows over.

I asked the manager to step out of the room, and had a discussion with the owner as to the importance of QS. I also stated that with his attitude, they would not get registered, and his customer would drop him. I also stated that I never had a company fail an audit yet, and I was not going to let him be the first. I gave him two choices. Step up to the plate, or I would drop him as a client. He fired me.

The MR quit a short time later. They never did pass the audit (despite attempting with 3 different registrars – one of which has a very loose reputation). Their building was vacant within a couple of years.

I had one instance where things were going tough. The client was just not gettng anywhere. The MR was at his wits end because of one manager who absolutely refused to cooperate in any form, figure or fashion. This caused other managers to drag their feet on key issues.

The result was we were way behind schedule. I was diligent in pointing out our falling behind on a weekly basis, and top management kept promising to get things done. Things came to a head during a meeting arranged by the MR between top management (read owner) and that particular manager. At one point, the MR had to leave the room to get some paperwork. The owner told the manager to lay off the MR. Although this entire QS (kinda dates the story) thing was a farce, the customer required it. He did not expect the manager to really do anything, but instead asked him to “humor” the MR until the entire thing blows over.

I asked the manager to step out of the room, and had a discussion with the owner as to the importance of QS. I also stated that with his attitude, they would not get registered, and his customer would drop him. I also stated that I never had a company fail an audit yet, and I was not going to let him be the first. I gave him two choices. Step up to the plate, or I would drop him as a client. He fired me.

The MR quit a short time later. They never did pass the audit (despite attempting with 3 different registrars – one of which has a very loose reputation). Their building was vacant within a couple of years.

But other than that everything went OK, right? :tg: Yet another example of how leadership--or lack thereof--is the key to the whole thing, and the difference between a rubber-stamp system and one that works for the company. I know from personal experience that at least one of the B3 did the equivalent of putting QS 9000 certificates in Cracker Jack boxes for many of its suppliers, going so far as to designate a "registrar of choice." Thus many companies with egregiously dysfunctional leadership (and quality systems) were registered. Now many of those chickens are coming home to roost.

They never did pass the audit (despite attempting with 3 different registrars – one of which has a very loose reputation). Their building was vacant within a couple of years.Unbelievable. So, the system worked. I mean, they were not able to attain certification. I am surprised, I must admit.Now many of those chickens are coming home to roost.For someone with English as a second language, I will have to take time to decipher this one.:tg:
Hopefully, the chickens won't have to cross the road.

For someone with English as a second language, I will have to take time to decipher this one.:tg:
Hopefully, the chickens won't have to cross the road.

Sidney,

Chickens come home to roost.

If you say that chickens are coming home to roost, you mean that bad or silly things done in the past are beginning to cause problems.
Example: There was too much greed in the past, and now the chickens are coming home to roost with crime and corruption soaring. Source: Cambridge International Dictionary of Idioms © Cambridge University Press 1998

Stijloor.

Unbelievable. So, the system worked. I mean, they were not able to attain certification. I am surprised, I must admit.For someone with English as a second language, I will have to take time to decipher this one.:tg:
Hopefully, the chickens won't have to cross the road.

It's another way of saying "what goes around, comes around," or "As ye sow, so shall ye reap," or, "don't be surprised when the boomerang comes back."

Yes, I've fired 3 in 22 years, when it became obvious they weren't serious about taking the actions necessary to accomplish their stated goal. I've never regretted it.

I knew a consultant the fired the client because he felt like they were not listening. They had him come in several times and paid him well, but would not do anything. He finally told them he felt like he was stealing from them since they would not listen and would rather to take their money any longer!

I gave him two choices. Step up to the plate, or I would drop him as a client.

Good for you - I would have made the same choice. To sit by and allow that kind of behaviour would have been condoning his behaviour, and wouldn't sit OK with my professional (or personal) ethics either. We don't need clients like that - and I'm unsurprised they never got it, either.

Yes, I've fired 3 in 22 years, when it became obvious they weren't serious about taking the actions necessary to accomplish their stated goal. I've never regretted it.

Me either. Not one of them. The only thing I've wished is that I'd spotted it a bit earlier and/or done it a bit sooner. But I've also taken what I could learn from each situation, and incorporated that into what I do and how.

I'm interested in how you did it though. Did you point it out, for example? Or did you get 'busy' and stop going? Some other way?

One marketing consultant working for a client of mine just stopped working for the client. But he never actually said he'd stopped. For quite a while, he promised to deliver the marketing report. Long periods would go by - I'd ask him where I was up to (the job having been delegated to me). Eventually (long time later) I'd get a response with another promise. And so on.

Until eventually, even that stopped. It finally dawned on us that he wasn't going to do it, but it took at least 3 months to realise it. (I suspect he found the job much harder than he thought, and decided not to do it after all.) It would have been infinitely more ethical - and just plain courteous! - to have said so, so that we didn't waste a lot of time waiting for him, before we had to go source another.

He finally told them he felt like he was stealing from them since they would not listen and would rather not take their money any longer!

I agree with the consultant on that one, too. It's not a long way from what I said to one client I left - because there was simply no point continuing on, as nothing was going to change.

There's little value, and no satisfaction at all, in simply doing something useless. Far, far better to find other clients with whom one can also obtain some satisfaction and that wonderful sense of not just spinning wheels, but also doing something useful.

I have very bad experience with my clients. Unfortunately, most of them want short-cuts without bothering to follow any suggestions. All that they are interested in is the certificate. The worst part is all the time they keep on promising that they are really interested in improving their working, yet always they end up trying inventing some excuse or other.

Ultimately, I make it clear before accepting an assignment that in case they do not like to follow my suggestions, I am not for them. I have even put in on my website.

And today I do not have a single client; whereas my friends who do not have any such restrictions have no time in their hands.

Surendro

I have very bad experience with my clients. Unfortunately, most of them want short-cuts without bothering to follow any suggestions. All that they are interested in is the certificate. The worst part is all the time they keep on promising that they are really interested in improving their working, yet always they end up trying inventing some excuse or other.

Ultimately, I make it clear before accepting an assignment that in case they do not like to follow my suggestions, I am not for them. I have even put in on my website.

And today I do not have a single client; whereas my friends who do not have any such restrictions have no time in their hands.

Surendro

May I respectfully suggest that our job as Quality professionals is to educate and persuade our employers and clients to the notion "Quality really does pay off both in the short and long run" based on our own conviction of the truth of that statement.

Most of us would be without clients if we waited for clients who were ALREADY convinced of the idea.

ASQ has an ongoing campaign to help members "make the case for Quality." Folks report small and large successes all the time. The key factor, in my opinion, is to answer the question in the mind of every stakeholder,
"What's in it for me?"
with a satisfactory answer that fits the ethics and goal of our profession and provides incentive for those stakeholders to continue with the program/process we put forth, and provide meaningful compensation and/or reward to us for helping them achieve this realization.

If we don't have a good answer and a "doable" plan, maybe we aren't ready to put ourselves forward as experts. It is not enough just to know the "rules," a good advisor has to know how to help even the totally clueless achieve some measure of success.

Gee, interesting, Surendro. Sounds like you have 'fired' or disqualified all your clients. That is not at all what I want - I actually asked this original question following some discomfort in deciding not to persist with a difficult client, but that was almost a year of trying. I still feel sad about it in some ways, because there are some good people there, but I decided it was ultimately a no win situation for my consultancy.

But with great respect, this statement of yours bothers me.

Ultimately, I make it clear before accepting an assignment that in case they do not like to follow my suggestions, I am not for them.

I do not make any such condition. In fact, as a business owner, if I came across a consultant who said that, I would actively reject them and most definitely not consider engaging them. Because it says to me the consultant has no interest in what I want and doesn't intend to listen to me - their way and only their way must prevail. And as a professional consultant, that makes me sad.

You see, I never insist on any client following any of my suggestions. In fact, I always make it clear that they are suggestions, and if one doesn't 'sound right' then we'll keep turning ideas over, and trying different ones until we reach one that does. Working with a client for me really does mean working with them - ie, it's a partnership approach. I don't insist they do things my way - in fact, I think that sounds like a somewhat arrogant position, & definitely not one that engenders good interpersonal relations. The tricky thing here is that your opinion may well be technically correct - you may be right, right, right... but as a wise person once said to me: you can be right but dead wrong at the same time.

After all, it's their business, and their money they put into it, their risk and of course their reward also. I respect that and never forget it.

Many years back, I must own that I was much more inclined to insist, and think I 'knew better'. But I also discovered that it just was not an effective way to achieve real change. People resented just being told and they resented not being involved and they resented not having any say. And I learned that it was infinitely better to work with them - even if that meant things appearing to take a bit longer - because the ultimate real change was to the hearts & minds and culture of the people. And that kind of change really sticks.

As a consultant, I see my role as helping my client to meet a particular goal that they have identified. I do see it as my responsibility to clarify the goal, and very much to help them learn and hopefully understand and appreciate the real value of quality management - but I do not lose sight of the fact that they want that certificate, either!

And today I do not have a single client

If that's what you wanted, then you achieved your aim. If it isn't... perhaps it's time to consider a different approach?

Because yes, I do agree with Wes that our role is to educate and persuade, not to order and demand. That "What's in it for me?" question is essential.

I agree strongly with what Wes has said. The 'perfect' client is quite rare. But there's an awful lot of great clients out there I am working with, where it's a privilege to help. Even the odd one I decline isn't necessarily 'bad' - it may just mean we don't fit well together, and they are better off with a different consultant.

Even the odd one I decline isn't necessarily 'bad' - it may just mean we don't fit well together, and they are better off with a different consultant.The essence of your post is spot on, Jane. I don't disagree one bit. However, Surendro's experience is diametrically opposed. He bluntly offers that his clients are not interested in performance improvement, betterment, etc...they only want the ISO 9001 certificate, a.k.a. the ticket to trade.

Emerging economies obviously don't have the same quality culture maturity that Australia, Western Europe, 2/3 of North America and a few other regions around the World have. What makes a strong point for Jim's thread on ISO 9001 implementation and auditing differences around the World. Based on bits and pieces of information provided by India-based covers, I suspect that "quality management" over there is very different than what you have in Australia. So some of our paradigms and advice are very difficult to be applied to their reality, I guess.

The essence of your post is spot on, Jane. I don't disagree one bit. However, Surendro's experience is diametrically opposed. He bluntly offers that his clients are not interested in performance improvement, betterment, etc...they only want the ISO 9001 certificate, a.k.a. the ticket to trade.

Emerging economies obviously don't have the same quality culture maturity that Australia, Western Europe, 2/3 of North America and a few other regions around the World have. What makes a strong point for Jim's thread on ISO 9001 implementation and auditing differences around the World. Based on bits and pieces of information provided by India-based covers, I suspect that "quality management" over there is very different than what you have in Australia. So some of our paradigms and advice are very difficult to be applied to their reality, I guess.I think the statement So some of our paradigms and advice are very difficult to be applied to their reality, I guess is all the more reason for us as Quality professionals "to educate and persuade our employers and clients to the notion "Quality really does pay off both in the short and long run" based on our own conviction of the truth of that statement."

Anything less than full effort is succumbing to that hidebound notion:
"We've always done it this way!"

I think the statement So some of our paradigms and advice are very difficult to be applied to their reality, I guess is all the more reason for us as Quality professionals "to educate and persuade our employers and clients to the notion "Quality really does pay off both in the short and long run" based on our own conviction of the truth of that statement."

Anything less than full effort is succumbing to that hidebound notion:
"We've always done it this way!"

This assumes that the companies in question aren't producing "quality" products to begin with. Sometimes the way something has always been done is the best way.

I guess I would call running my own calibration business as a consultant. I think I spent more time consulting than calibrating (I know; that's another thread).:D

The second I went on my own and was the "owner", well.... there was a change. I am not sure if X caused Y, or Y caused X. Instantly, customers started treating me completely different than before. But in all honestly, I am sure my attitude and approach changed also. There were a few times on a few occasions I had to say "no" (asking for questionable services). The customers were OK with that.

Many years ago at my first calibration job, I went to a customer's facility. Well, I received a fair amount of verbal abuse from the customer. I stayed and did the work. I told my boss about it, and got another chewing (it wasn't really a chewing; more like a fatherly admonition; he was like a father to me). He stated "don't ever let a customer treat you that way. Don't say a word, pack your stuff up, and come home. I'll deal with them." That one situation has strongly formed my approach.

Owning my own business has always heightened my sense of customer service. However, it has also heightened my sensitivity to not having to put up with jerks and undue stress to the point of personally affecting you.

This assumes that the companies in question aren't producing "quality" products to begin with. Sometimes the way something has always been done is the best way.

How often does this happen? Please state figures.

How often does this happen? Please state figures.
63.2% of the time. :cool:

Of course there's no way to "state figures" in such a case, and I will readily agree that there are relatively few processes that can't benefit from some sort of improvement effort. My point was that there are times when efficacious processes are tampered with by well-meaning individuals who believe that "the way we've always done it" is necessarily wrong. Knowing when to leave well enough alone is just as important as knowing how to fix things. You also have to keep in mind that whatever the current state of "quality" happens to be is often no more than what leadership says it is. Sometimes even the most skillful horse whisperer can lead the equines to the H2O and not be able to get them to drink.

Jim,

Although I understand your point, I respectfully disagree.

Why? If leaving "well enough alone" is acceptable, why do the best competitors (individuals and companies) constantly try to change and improve?

Tiger Woods has completely changed his golf swing...yes, there was a time where he seemed human, but, now he is almost untouchable!

Corporations change processes, structure, etc. in efforts to improve the overall business.

On a personal note, I was very competitive in 10 pin bowling (averaging just over 200 for many years in a row). There is theoretically nothing wrong with that (I could have left "well enough alone"). I proceeded to complete deconstruct my game and rebuild it over one summer. I averaged over 210 for 4 of the next 5 years (the 1st year after I averaged 208). I have since quit because I found it too easy (yes, I prefer being challenged..hence in quality field and I started golfing).

All of these are examples of when things are good, but change results in something better. It sometimes results in a temporary state of lower results; however, many times results in much improved long term results. I use the motto "good enough never is; because somebody out there is better than you".

I guess the philosophy used depends on the goals that are set and/or how competitive you are (yes, I can be very competitive)

John

How often does this happen? Please state figures.

I too, cannot state figures. However, I have had personal experience on more than one occasion where a company is making a good quality product. In several of these cases, they were reluctant to document the system because they were worried that documenting the system would remove their flexibility and actually force them into making bad product. In one occasion, it took quite a bit of salesmanship to get them to realize that they could still maintain the flexibility to make changes when changes were necessary.

Jim,

Although I understand your point, I respectfully disagree.

Why? If leaving "well enough alone" is acceptable, why do the best competitors (individuals and companies) constantly try to change and improve?

The best competitors, in my experience, know how to pick their battles. Companies that are amenable to change also tend to know what and when to change things, and when not to tamper with a good thing. The idea that everything is always subject to improvement is wasteful. This doesn't mean that monitoring is a bad thing, or that we should close our eyes to potential opportunities. Knowing when to use the tools is an important part of having tools.

Tiger Woods has completely changed his golf swing...yes, there was a time where he seemed human, but, now he is almost untouchable!
I will never be a scratch golfer, nor do I have the capability to be one. I learned this a long time ago. I can improve my own game only to the extent that my own personal physiology will permit it, given equal motivational factors.

Corporations change processes, structure, etc. in efforts to improve the overall business.

Absolutely. But they don't change everything just for the sake of change. The best companies use their assets wisely, and know when to leave things alone and concentrate on deficiencies that need improvement the most.

On a personal note, I was very competitive in 10 pin bowling (averaging just over 200 for many years in a row). There is theoretically nothing wrong with that (I could have left "well enough alone"). I proceeded to complete deconstruct my game and rebuild it over one summer. I averaged over 210 for 4 of the next 5 years (the 1st year after I averaged 208). I have since quit because I found it too easy (yes, I prefer being challenged..hence in quality field and I started golfing).

It's interesting that you should mention bowling, because I spent a great deal of time at it when I was in my twenties, and despite many hours of practice and instruction (I was very serious about it) an average in the mid-190s was the best I could do. Not bad, but it wasn't as good as I wanted to be. If you found an average of 210 to be "too easy," why didn't you set a higher goal? My guess is that you were about as good as you were going to get, and further improvement efforts would have been fruitless.

The essence of your post is spot on, Jane. I don't disagree one bit. However, Surendro's experience is diametrically opposed. He bluntly offers that his clients are not interested in performance improvement, betterment, etc...they only want the ISO 9001 certificate, a.k.a. the ticket to trade.

Emerging economies obviously don't have the same quality culture maturity that Australia, Western Europe, 2/3 of North America and a few other regions around the World have. What makes a strong point for Jim's thread on ISO 9001 implementation and auditing differences around the World. Based on bits and pieces of information provided by India-based covers, I suspect that "quality management" over there is very different than what you have in Australia. So some of our paradigms and advice are very difficult to be applied to their reality, I guess.

I agree with you Sidney. The paradigms and advice are different. Would you agree that the propensity to fire a client is also different from country to country?

Jim,

Points taken.

However, all businesses should be determining where improvements are worthwhile. Even when I deconstructed my bowling game, I never changed how I made single pin spares..why? I was already known as the best around for single pin spares. My improvement was based on getting more power to the ball as well as being able to play on many different conditions.

Why did I quit? Because I knew any improvement was completely mentally based. In this area (Toronto) there is very little to no competition to keep my mental game at the level I needed/wanted it to be to gain any satisfaction. When I was at what I referred to as "tournament level" I would be averaging 215-220 on a regular basis (usually from Jan to April). Oh ya, then I got married and have a small child ;)

Now we return to are regularly scheduled thread. :)

Would you agree that the propensity to fire a client is also different from country to country?Yes. Good consultants fire clients when their livelihood is not in jeopardy, for the most part. Income plays a long way in being patient and willing to eat some crows and kiss some frogs, in certain assignments.

While passion for quality is commendable, any dogmatic, extremist approach to educate the non-enlightened is counterproductive. Sometimes you must lose some battles to win the war. If I were Surendro, I would make it clear in my website and any marketing collateral that:
IF YOU JUST WANT THE CERTIFICATE, DON'T BOTHER CALLING ME.
It would help screening the misguided clients.

Back on topic:o

In the recent past I have been contemplating whether to venture into the consulting world. My problem is that I am sick of "getting the certificate". It is not satisfying the get the paperwork (although I am making reasonable money doing this) anymore. Unfortunately, I see that it is no different in the consulting world.

Although, under my current situation, I could have some level of pickiness. I agree that I would be willing to "kiss some frogs" to help a company mature; however, I will not deal with people that would ask me to compromise my ethics. I will help you get the certificate; just don't ask me to lie or compromise my ethics to help you do it.

:2cents:

63.2% of the time. :cool:83% of all statistics are made up on the spot.But they don't change everything just for the sake of change. The best companies use their assets wisely, and know when to leave things alone and concentrate on deficiencies that need improvement the most.When the process runs at 2 or 3 digit PPM defects, the customer is happy and it's always been that way, you tread on dangerous ground to change (i.e. try to "improve") it. Why do it when you can walk across the aisle to the 95% yield, late delivery, customer screaming process and come out a hero.Although, under my current situation, I could have some level of pickiness. I agree that I would be willing to "kiss some frogs" to help a company mature; however, I will not deal with people that would ask me to compromise my ethics. I will help you get the certificate; just don't ask me to lie or compromise my ethics to help you do it.I'm not a consultant but I "fired" my previous employer. I spent about 6 months trying to educate my new boss (and I wasn't alone). Despite a lack of experience, training, or education, he knew how to be a better Quality Manager, Quality Engineer and Electrical/Manufacturing Engineer than me. When I fired him he told me that we needed to have an exit interview. I told him that we had been having one for the past month and didn't need another. He threatened that I would have the interview with the president. I said I'd really like that. He never scheduled it.

I didn't start out in quality here but I was very up front with my current employer that I would not violate my personal morals nor my professional ethics if I took on the Quality Manager role. Fudging quality metrics, lying about defects (amount or cause) or even varnishing the truth about root cause with a customer just isn't worth your name and reputation.

83% of all statistics are made up on the spot.Amazing how close (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=202688&postcount=7)our numbers are.

Wow, what a great range of discussion. Interesting responses all.

In the recent past I have been contemplating whether to venture into the consulting world. My problem is that I am sick of "getting the certificate". It is not satisfying the get the paperwork (although I am making reasonable money doing this) anymore. Unfortunately, I see that it is no different in the consulting world.

Well, yes and no. In my opinion, it IS very different. I just love what I do, virtually all day every day. I think also I'm temperamentally suited to project work where things change frequently and there are many new situations and new people to work with, and less well suited to ongoing management.

But yes, there are of course parts of my business I enjoy less (writing audit reports for example). And yes, I come across the occasional client/potential client who is difficult.

But there's a world of difference in being my own boss. I choose my business values. I get to put my own beliefs about quality management into action - and of course have to demonstrate them & live up to them. And put my self 'on the line' business wise. But I can also choose how I respond to a 'difficult client' - eg, whether I take them on or not. If so, how I work with them.

And yes, of course one has to be willing to kiss some frogs - I did a lot of that while building my business, because the dog sure likes to eat and snooze on a comfortable bed and so do I.

But no, I don't deal with people who want me to compromise my ethics. I make that plain on my website too. Unethical conduct? No. And fortunately, I've only once come across a potential client where I had severe qualms about their ethics - told them they would be better with another firm. Being firmly on your side as a client to help you get that certificate? Absolutely.

The best competitors, in my experience, know how to pick their battles. Companies that are amenable to change also tend to know what and when to change things, and when not to tamper with a good thing... they don't change everything just for the sake of change. The best companies use their assets wisely, and know when to leave things alone and concentrate on deficiencies that need improvement the most.

Could not agree with you more, Jim. Well said. It's too simplistic to keep repeating the 'everything is subject to change' mantra, without picking the best, most productive places to change. "More bang for the buck", as it were.

When the process runs at 2 or 3 digit PPM defects, the customer is happy and it's always been that way, you tread on dangerous ground to change (i.e. try to "improve") it. Why do it when you can walk across the aisle to the 95% yield, late delivery, customer screaming process and come out a hero.

Yes, indeed.

I'm not a consultant but I "fired" my previous employer. I spent about 6 months trying to educate my new boss (and I wasn't alone). Despite a lack of experience, training, or education, he knew how to be a better Quality Manager, Quality Engineer and Electrical/Manufacturing Engineer than me. When I fired him he told me that we needed to have an exit interview. I told him that we had been having one for the past month and didn't need another. He threatened that I would have the interview with the president. I said I'd really like that. He never scheduled it.
Love it! Right decision you made, too.

While passion for quality is commendable, any dogmatic, extremist approach to educate the non-enlightened is counterproductive. Sometimes you must lose some battles to win the war.

True. But then I think any dogmatic, extremist approach to (just about?) anything you care to name is counterproductive. I don't think/didn't interpret what Wes said as advocating that at all, & it wouldn't be consistent with other things he writes.

If I were Surendro, I would make it clear in my website and any marketing collateral that: IF YOU JUST WANT THE CERTIFICATE, DON'T BOTHER CALLING ME. It would help screening the misguided clients.

You're right in that websites & marketing material can be equally as useful in screening out the clients we don't want as screening in & attracting those we do. I am not sure I'd word it quite like that - but then, I'm not the consultant there! I definitely use mine that way, and find it very useful.

But I'd also like to hear back from Surendro, to learn a bit more about his situation, including whether we can offer any help, because I'm not quite clear about the actual issue there. I think I'm perhaps interpreting what was said in one way, others are seeing it differently, and we don't really have a lot to go on other than a few rather bare bones.

Never fired a client.but I admired your work

Thanks for your post. Actually, what happened in most of my cases is that the top management always wanted to see the improvement. In one case, a Director was always after the factory to improve their working. The President in charge of the factory was preparing a monthly report running into about 20 pages just to keep the Directory busy.

However, the whole report was silent on one factor -the conversion cost. By introducing a simple formula, it was made apparent that the company is losing hundred of thousands of rupees in invisible waste -waste that is not accounted for. Once this was done, the MD immediately asked to follow the new format which was only a half page report. However, the President was not amused.

In another case, the Director in charge of production was proud to tell that he is managing with a product loss of only 1 to 2%, and there is no further scope for improvement. In fact he was not even trying to listen anything. Therefore, when the machine wise production and quality checking ireeports were introduced, it was found that the entire production of a particular machine in an entire shift was defective. This set the MD into thinking, and he took personal interest to attend the weekly productivity meeting.

In fact it is not my idea that they should follow everything that a consultant tells them. But they should also try to see the point and only accept something that is finally going to help them.

After all they are using the resources which have a vital impact on the lives of all, and any wastage is a criminal negligence and as consultants we must try to show them the actual areas of wastage and how to stop it.

However, it is the middle management who are with the company for quite a long period do not want any such suggestions, because they consider their tenure insecure.

Surendro

Ah, interesting. Thanks for the extra information, Surendro. From what you say, it sounds as though the top management were on board, but the middle management not (and since that's where the problem lay, there's presumably an understandable resistance). And yes, I strongly agree that there isn't much point in consulting to someone unless they're willing to try. But we also need at least some clients (if you are as fond of helping others improve, not to mention eating as I am)

From a consulting point of view, it's perhaps then important to look at how one sets up the terms of the engagement in the first place, including who you report to, and what the parameters are.

Slightly off topic, but as an example, I once worked with another consultant on a company project (at their request). He was a specialist in a different field, but related to my engagement. Problem was, they wanted him to be 'lead consultant' and he did all the client liaison and reporting, so I had no avenue to communicate with the client. It was a mistake from my point of view, and I belatedly discovered that a/ he had no idea of how to manage a project and b/ was taking credit for things I created and c/ there was no formal reporting or tracking of progress. Among other problems, the client decided I wasn't doing much (well no, he'd taken a lot of it on and presented it as 'his'). Not a mistake I plan to make again, but I learned that I should insist in future on clearer reporting and tracking arrangements - or be prepared to walk away.

It comes back to the interesting questions of how do you work through others to get things done. Perhaps the question 'how do you work with middle management when they need to but don't want to change?' would make a good new thread?

It comes back to the interesting questions of how do you work through others to get things done. Perhaps the question 'how do you work with middle management when they need to but don't want to change?' would make a good new thread?


I am in the exact position you described. I have tried every trick.... and still :frust::frust::frust:. The middle management is not interested in learning anything new or doing anything extra.

I would love some feedback and help.

I am in the exact position you described. I have tried every trick.... and still :frust::frust::frust:. The middle management is not interested in learning anything new or doing anything extra.

I would love some feedback and help.


My advice would be to start a new thread with the question. It's a different topic & needs a separate one.
There may be other people who could /would contribute but aren't involved or interested in this thread. Nor would anyone searching for that information find it in a thread by this title. I'm not trying to be unhelpful - far from it - but I think it's better in another thread.

Thanks Jane,

Thank you for your wonderful views. The whole problem lies in my attitude. I have first hand experience about how the textile industry, to which I originally belonged works. I also have first hand knowledge about a number of consultant friends are encouraging the top management to circumvent the requirements of the standards like ISO 9001:2000 QMS, ISO 14001:2004, SA 8000 etc. In fact they openly suggest to the top management and help them in maintaining two sets of documentation -one for the external auditor and one for actual operations.

Besides them, most of the people who ever happened to work as Management Representative in a company have started their consultancy and they neither have the right background, not the commitment.

To accentuate this problem, the certification agencies are also not following a strict code of practice and do not go deep into the documented procedures and the actual working of the company.

To highlight this, I would like to quote what one participant had asked me during one of my training programs - how many companies have been decertified or refused certification because they are not following the regulatory requirements? I had to admit that to my knowledge not a single company had been refused certification or decertified for not following regulatory requirements, except in one case where the certifying agency had to suspend the certificate of a company because some NGO wrote to SAI with actual proof of how the company circumvents the regulatory requirements and why it should not have got the SA 8000 certificate in the first place.

I refuse to accept or be a part of such unethical practices. Therefore, I always try to give due value for what I am charging to my clients; and when I find some resistence I give more time even at my expense and try to convince the concerned persons. However, if even despite this I fail, I get frustrated. And yes, I have never walked out of an assignment on these grounds, though I give my suggestions about how the company can improve its results by taking care of certain activities and leave the matter at that.

Now, before accepting an assignment, I first ask how serious the client is in implementing the requirements of the standard, the way the standard requires. If I find the client not genuinely interested in that I thank him for the time and walk out instead of compromising on my belief.

But, Jane you are right, we can't always be altruistic, and have to be realistic and do not have to get frustrated because our views are not accepted. We must try to devise a method to involve the reluctant middle management level to achieve our aim, which is actually going to help them. May be we have to put our views as actual suggestions coming from the middle management. This may remove the insecurity they may be feeling and also project them in a good light and we may get their cooperation.

Thanks once again Jane for giving me this opportunity to reflect on my attitude and find the solution.

And Yes, I also agree with Marc and you, we may start a new thread on how to involve the reluctant middle management in our plan of action.

Thanks everybody who contributed to the thread. It was very enlightening.

Surendro

Surendro,

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion - you've certainly given me some things to ponder. Just yesterday I met an the MD of a firm located in an emerging economy country at a local Quality convention - she had some very interesting things to say about some of the registration/certification practices there, and not good ones alas..

The whole problem lies in my attitude.
Well, if things are as you describe them, then I don't think that your attitude is 'the problem'!

I have first hand experience about how the textile industry, to which I originally belonged works. I also have first hand knowledge about a number of consultant friends are encouraging the top management to circumvent the requirements of the standards like ISO 9001:2000 QMS, ISO 14001:2004, SA 8000 etc. In fact they openly suggest to the top management and help them in maintaining two sets of documentation -one for the external auditor and one for actual operations.

This is dreadful, and makes me sad to hear. Thing is - it may work temporarily, but it won't be sustainable and sooner or later it will break down. And one of the big questions will be: how much will it cost them? (Lost customers, damages, reputation, etc etc).

I refuse to accept or be a part of such unethical practices.
I agree utterly with you. Appalling.

Thanks for taking the time to explain more - I didn't get a true impression from your first email.

Now, before accepting an assignment, I first ask how serious the client is in implementing the requirements of the standard, the way the standard requires. If I find the client not genuinely interested in that I thank him for the time and walk out instead of compromising on my belief.
Very wise. (We learn from our mistakes, don't we?). I used to think that the mere fact that a customer had decided to get certified meant that they were committed. Overly naive of me. And I do the same as you - I have learned to be choosier about clients. But it became easier to do that of course once I'd built the business to a level where I could take the risk of saying no. In the early days, I did not dare to, because I worried too much about not eating - 'becoming a bag lady'.

We must try to devise a method to involve the reluctant middle management level to achieve our aim, which is actually going to help them.
I think this is one of THE most fruitful areas for quality - and one of the areas where the 'quality movement' has most often failed. If middle management perceives quality as 'either/or' (as in, I can either make my targets/reach my objectives OR I can do quality) then it has failed. And I believe it has often failed.

Thanks once again Jane for giving me this opportunity to reflect on my attitude and find the solution.

Thank you, Surendro for the same reason. You, among others, have given me opportunities to reflect on varying points of view and hear of experiences that are sometimes similar and at times very different, and above all, more thinking material. And I do like being stimulated to think. [/QUOTE]