...When an internal auditor challenges either you (the Lead Auditor) or your decision :mg: to not include in the audit report a questionable "finding" (point of concern) they had included in their audit notes, how do you handle the situation? This recently happened to me and I just wondered if anyone else has experienced a similar situation. If so, what did you do?

Without revealing too much information, I will say that I discussed the situation with my boss and we both agreed that this particular piece of information should NOT be included because of the volatilely political nature of the concern. (The audit report had already been distributed minus the concern when the IA asked why this issue wasn't included in the report.)

I will tell the IA that after discussing the situation with my boss, we both agreed and felt that it was not pertinent to this audit and would not be addressed at this time, but would be included in the next audit where it would be more appropriate. :nopity:

I'd be interested to hear your "war stories" of similar experiences, if anyone would like to share. :tg: We can all learn something from each other's experiences, right? :agree1:

Just went through that myself..."I'm the Lead, the responsibility is mine, the final decision is mine"

...When an internal auditor challenges either you (the Lead Auditor) or your decision :mg: to not include in the audit report a questionable "finding" (point of concern) they had included in their audit notes, how do you handle the situation? This recently happened to me and I just wondered if anyone else has experienced a similar situation. If so, what did you do?

Without revealing too much information, I will say that I discussed the situation with my boss and we both agreed that this particular piece of information should NOT be included because of the volatilely political nature of the concern. (The audit report had already been distributed minus the concern when the IA asked why this issue wasn't included in the report.)

I will tell the IA that after discussing the situation with my boss, we both agreed and felt that it was not pertinent to this audit and would not be addressed at this time, but would be included in the next audit where it would be more appropriate. :nopity:

I'd be interested to hear your "war stories" of similar experiences, if anyone would like to share. :tg: We can all learn something from each other's experiences, right? :agree1:

Why would it be appropriate in the next audit, but not in the present one? The surfacing of "political" concerns indicates that something is wrong somewhere. Either you're dealing with something that should be addressed, or an auditor whose personal agenda is interfering with the process. In either case, the audit did what it was supposed to do, that being revealing a problem with the system.

Gidget,

What I have experienced were findings from auditors that were very superficial or that were "so small" that I did not think that it aggregated any real value to the system to open up a CAR and so on. It was difficult at times to explain to the IA that the corrective action would still be taken with just a "verbal NCR" to the auditee.... especially when the IA just finished the IA course.

Sensitive or strategic corporate info has to be dealt with carefully on an audit report... especially if it is distributed company wide...

But all in all, I agree with Randy... the Lead has the final decision and the responsibility it entirely his, that´s one of the reasons why there is a LA.

While what Randy says is true, and I am in fact placed in a similar position right now, I want to caution you to take this matter with your auditor like it is the delicate matter it is. You'd need to explain how the system would be positively served by not airing the finding.

Now, from the auditor's viewpoint: the volatility part I get. The political aspect I also get. What I haven't seen is recognition of whether or not this finding reflects on the system's robust function. If it is a technical matter that will be short lived or is not of much functional importance, I can see making an over ride. However, that is not the sense I got from the question. If the auditor gets the idea that a valid finding is being quieted, the auditor might not raise such things in the future. My morale could suffer, and I, the auditor, need to believe in my work in order to add value to the system.

I noted that the matter will be taken up in an upcoming audit. And indeed there is no reason why an unscheduled audit can't be done. Waiting a little while cold be okay as doing so is not incurring undue risk AND the internal auditor understands that doing so would enable your group to take on the issue directly and not by going down a so-called rat hole.
:2cents:

If you are positive that there is no merit, no gain for your company, then tell your auditor just that. If there is a grain of truth, a possibilty for an improvement, then sit down with the auditor and find some way to phrase the concern as an observation of an opportunity. This happens, and it happens fairly regularly. Especially with newer, less experienced auditors. But, if you take them seriously, and appreciate what they are trying to do (my experience is that most of these issues come from that "puppy dog enthusiasm" that people sometimes have) and continue to help them develop and grow you will be happy that you did. (in most cases, sometimes you just need to cut your losses and get them off the team)

Why would it be appropriate in the next audit, but not in the present one? The surfacing of "political" concerns indicates that something is wrong somewhere. Either you're dealing with something that should be addressed, or an auditor whose personal agenda is interfering with the process. In either case, the audit did what it was supposed to do, that being revealing a problem with the system.

The issue was more relevant to another process (which is the next audit I mentioned) rather than where it was noted in that audit. Yes, something is wrong, but not where this auditor noted it. It will be addressed, but not by that auditor nor in the report this auditor thought it belonged.

The point of relevency to the audit needs to be considered, at that seems to have been done.

Is the "point of concern" relevant to the objectives and criteria? I had to almost spank a recent team member who kept trying to hammer a client over some strictly 100% environmental issues when we were doing an OHS audit...."Not relevant!" . The client was informed of what was observed (due diligence), but it was not part of the audit and we didn't beat them up over the subject.

If you are positive that there is no merit, no gain for your company, then tell your auditor just that. If there is a grain of truth, a possibilty for an improvement, then sit down with the auditor and find some way to phrase the concern as an observation of an opportunity. This happens, and it happens fairly regularly. Especially with newer, less experienced auditors. But, if you take them seriously, and appreciate what they are trying to do (my experience is that most of these issues come from that "puppy dog enthusiasm" that people sometimes have) and continue to help them develop and grow you will be happy that you did. (in most cases, sometimes you just need to cut your losses and get them off the team)

This auditor has been with the company for many, many years and has been an IA since the company first became registered. This auditor knows where all the skeletons are, so to speak, and knows that this concern is legit, but is more relevant to the other process I mentioned earlier.

The issue was more relevant to another process (which is the next audit I mentioned) rather than where it was noted in that audit. Yes, something is wrong, but not where this auditor noted it. It will be addressed, but not by that auditor nor in the report this auditor thought it belonged.

Without knowing more about the situation at hand it's difficult to give advice. I will say though that processes are interrelated, and it's not unusual to audit one process and discover a problem with another. I suspect there's more to it than that, though.

One of the prime benefits of experience is knowing how (and when) to choose your battles. If you're dealing with a young and inexperienced auditor, it might be difficult for him/her to understand that the present situation should be dealt with "offline" or in some other way. Deming's admonition about pride of workmanship comes to mind; if we ask auditors to be alert for problems with the system and they find one, it may be difficult for them to see the big picture. If the situation you're dealing with now is actually addressed in the future, you should make sure that the auditor is aware of it, and is thanked for bringing it to light so as not to make her think you weren't serious about dealing with problems. It's important that auditors, especially less experienced ones, aren't inhibited by things they may not fully understand.

Without knowing more about the situation at hand it's difficult to give advice... .


Well, I appreciate everyone's advice, but I was really just curious to see how other folks have handled similar situations, if they've had any. ;)

Thanks again! :thanx:

If the issue was the auditor had what they considered a finding and I didn't agree I would let them know that it will not be a finding and these are the reasons why. If they felt strongly about it and were able to show the objective evidence as to why is should be a finding I would sit down and discuss with them.

Now, on the other had if the auditor had a finding and I didn't want to put it in the report because it was a senstive issue I would discuss withthe auditor and give them my reasons. However, I would make that it gets addressed.

I will tell the IA that after discussing the situation with my boss, we both agreed and felt that it was not pertinent to this audit and would not be addressed at this time, but would be included in the next audit where it would be more appropriate.I think that it is very important that, when you explain the rationale for your decision to the supporting auditor, that he understands why you made your decision. Most people will respect the lead auditor's decision, even if they do not agree with, if they understand why. So, he does not feel that his input and findings are being disregarded for spurious reasons, such as company politics. The easiest way to alienate a good auditor is to give them an impression that what they find is not valued and you can simply use your authority, as the lead auditor, to dismiss their comments.

I think that it is very important that, when you explain the rationale for your decision to the supporting auditor, that he understands why you made your decision. Most people will respect the lead auditor's decision, even if they do not agree with, if they understand why. So, he does not feel that his input and findings are being disregarded for spurious reasons, such as company politics. The easiest way to alienate a good auditor is to give them an impression that what they find is not valued and you can simply use your authority, as the lead auditor, to dismiss their comments.

There are unlying issues/reasons that I can't discuss here, but you are correct, Sidney, and I don't want to alienate this auditor because she is good and she'll understand the logic when I explain it to her. Heaven knows, I can't afford to lose her because good internal auditors are hard to find and keep around! :D

Hey Gidget.

I have been in the situation and I agree with both Randy and Sidney in that I AM THE LEAD AUDITOR and it's up to me to make the final decision BUT it's best practice to explain your side and make sure you're understood when you have force that authority.
One of my auditors has been doing this stuff for just as long as me and we go back and forth all the time because he's the sort of person who likes challenging people. Sometime I give if he makes his point, sometimes I know a bigger picture than he does and he must just accept my judgement.

Similar to your situation he's been with the company longer and knows exactly where to look...But I'm more in tune with the company politics and take it as my job as to which battle to fight which battle to wait on.

We have a very good relationship because of this.

I had to almost spank a recent team member who kept trying to hammer a client over some strictly 100% environmental issues when we were doing an OHS auditIt is hard to believe that someone so peaceful, easy going and respectful would have to resort to physical intimidation to straighten a supporting auditor....http://www.ugoplayer.com//forum/images/smilies/lol_1.gif

Being the Lead Auditor, and the only Internal Auditor in my company (besides my Manager, who audits my process) I have never had any issue with NCs that I have found.... HAHAHAHAH :lmao:
But if I did I would certainly resort to violance to resolve the issue...........!
:bonk:

Hey Gidget.

I have been in the situation and I agree with both Randy and Sidney in that I AM THE LEAD AUDITOR and it's up to me to make the final decision BUT it's best practice to explain your side and make sure you're understood when you have force that authority.
One of my auditors has been doing this stuff for just as long as me and we go back and forth all the time because he's the sort of person who likes challenging people. Sometime I give if he makes his point, sometimes I know a bigger picture than he does and he must just accept my judgement.
Similar to your situation he's been with the company longer and knows exactly where to look...But I'm more in tune with the company politics and take it as my job as to which battle to fight which battle to wait on.
We have a very good relationship because of this.


Hey Scott.

Yes, I'm in exactly this spot at this time. She will have to trust my judgment because she wasn't privy to some of the "politics" of the issue she wants to press, but I was. :mg: And boy, did it leave a bad taste in the mouth! :yuk: This is why it must wait until the next audit, where I can ask the right questions of the right persons to get the answers needed.

Again, I want to say thanks to everyone who has taken the time to offer advice and share their experiences. I appreciate it and will soak it all in to become a better lead auditor. :) :thanks: