One friend told me that i should include a process flow chart for every procedure
describing the flow of the procedure is this true or it is not obligatory?:notme:

One friend told me that i should include a process flow chart for every procedure
describing the flow of the procedure is this true or it is not obligatory?:notme:

No it's not required. Do whatever works best for your company.

Stijloor.

One friend told me that i should include a process flow chart for every procedure
describing the flow of the procedure is this true or it is not obligatory?:notme:

There is no requirement to my knowledge that states every procedure shall have a process flow chart. If a flow chart will help the reader better understand the workings of that process, then by all means, develop one. However, IMO, it would be overkill to have a flow chart in every procedure. Some companies even use flow charts as the procedure itself without a text-only document to describe the process.

Why?
If a process flow map details a 'better/ description than verbiage, why not just use the process flow?

Why?
If a process flow map details a 'better/ description than verbiage, why not just use the process flow?

Flowcharts do not always provide the necessary details for the process.

Stijloor.

Certain people like flowcharts better than written procedures in our company.
I have about 20% of all procedures flowcharted.

They are not mandatory by any means.

Back to the objective why we want a flow chart.......

For third party or who ever does not involve in the process, flow chart is the good tool to share to them so that they can understand the process easily.

For internal or which involve in the process, flow chart alone is not enough for them to carry out the operation without the details in the process steps.

"Should", "Must", "Obligatroy" are all key words.

Are we debating if flowcharts are required by ISO 9001 or are we debating if they are an effective approach to defining processes?

Let's not mix the two debates for pages and pages.

MDWeek: What did you read in ISO 9001 related to flowcharts? What was the result of your research. Did the consulting firm flowchart all of their processes, especially processes for section 7?

"Flowcharts do not always provide the necessary details for the process."

I do not think this is always true.

I was the QMS coordinator for a successful company and every process was a flowchart.

"Flowcharts do not always provide the necessary details for the process."

I do not think this is always true.

I was the QMS coordinator for a successful company and every process was a flowchart.

Dirk,

What works well for one organization, may not work for another.

Stijloor.

Dirk,

What works well for one organization, may not work for another.

Stijloor.

It depends on (amongst other things) the author's understanding of a "process" / the level of skills and knowledge of those using the process definitions / the software used / the style of flowchart. I have seen many flowcharts which confuse rather than explain. But then I have seen many more narrative procedures which do a worse job.

The original question ("Is Process Flowcharting every Procedure Necessary?") implies that there is a 1-1 relationship between "procedure" and "process". In fact:
i) a process flowchart IS (or can be) a procedure (ie a description of how something should be done)
ii) a procedure does not always describe a (complete) process
iii) it is very possible to define a management system by means of process descriptions in flowchart form, with links to forms, checklists and (if necessary) detailed work instructions. We do it all the time.

It depends on (amongst other things) the author's understanding of a "process" / the level of skills and knowledge of those using the process definitions / the software used / the style of flowchart. I have seen many flowcharts which confuse rather than explain. But then I have seen many more narrative procedures which do a worse job.

The original question ("Is Process Flowcharting every Procedure Necessary?") implies that there is a 1-1 relationship between "procedure" and "process". In fact:
i) a process flowchart IS (or can be) a procedure (ie a description of how something should be done)
ii) a procedure does not always describe a (complete) process
iii) it is very possible to define a management system by means of process descriptions in flowchart form, with links to forms, checklists and (if necessary) detailed work instructions. We do it all the time.

Peter,

Excellent explanation!

Stijloor.

Hello Stijloor:

When you write "Flowcharts do not always provide the necessary details for the process", then I repsond with a comment that in some organziations, flowcharts can always provide the necessary details. This is not true for all managment sytems. But for some, the flowchart technique can provide all of the necessary details.

One friend told me that i should include a process flow chart for every procedure
describing the flow of the procedure is this true or it is not obligatory?:notme:

I am a big fan of flowcharting processes and procedures. It is not required. Your friend used the word "should" and that is the key. I have used a combined format that gets acclaims from clients and lead auditors. I attached a sample of a corrective action / preventive action procedure, in a different thread http://elsmar.com/Forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7902&d=1197345002 , that uses a flowchart and narrative in the same sheet.
Tip: Using this helps with understanding the interaction of business processes, business objectives, audit trails, QMS responsibilities and sequence of events.:paint:

Hello Stijloor:

When you write "Flowcharts do not always provide the necessary details for the process", then I repsond with a comment that in some organziations, flowcharts can always provide the necessary details. This is not true for all managment sytems. But for some, the flowchart technique can provide all of the necessary details.

Dirk,

I agree. It depends on the situation. I've seen complicated processes depicted using flowcharts, the (critical) details were contained as "tribal knowledge." You can imagine what type of variation that introduced in those processes. On the other hand, I have seen multi-page, long-winded written procedures that could easily be documented using flowcharts. I think that you and I agree that "one size does not fit all."

Stijloor.

Dear MDWEEK:

Stop listening you your friend … you don’t need to create a flowchart for procedures.

You have to be careful with the keywords within the ISO 9001:2000 standard (i.e. documented procedure, document, record, plan, etc).

The ISO 9001:2000 standard, clause 4.1 (a) and (b) do require that you determine the processes (i.e. not procedures) needed for your quality management system and determine their sequence and interaction. The “how you do it” and “how much level of detail” is up to you. This “stuff” it is typically place in your Quality Manual.

If you read clause 4.2.2 you will see that you have the option of placing this “stuff” outside your quality manual but you will need to reference to it inside the quality manual.

Good luck my friend.

Cuadra

I guess it all comes down to personal choice,

Its not necssary, in the beginning I did this because it was the only way I could do procedures, because I use process flowcharts in my daily life, but I have come away from this because its just time consuming.

However, i do them when i feel a third party needs to see an overview of them.

why not ask your friend why they suggest that and explain what you have learned here - maybe they have got it wrong.

HTH

However, i do them when i feel a third party needs to see an overview of them. HTH

Whether a "Third Party" needs them or not, it is still your decision if your want to use flowcharts or not. Don't do things for "third parties." Do things that make sense for your business/organization and its customers.

Stijloor.