Ok, here is my Problem. We supplied parts to a Customer that had a double adhesive backing on the back, because the Supplier of the material to us, overlapped the material to make a 100ft roll out of a 75 ft and 25 ft roll. Usually we can detect the problem if the material winds itself around the tool and the gears of the machine get chewed up. After several times we asked the Supplier not to do that anymore, and the problem went away. Now it has started up again and like I said it went unnoticed and parts were shipped to our customer.
My question is , in answering the CA issued to me from our Customer how can I verify the effectiveness of the Corrective action to our supplier so they don't do this anymore? Short of having to unwind every roll, to check the backing I can't actually see anything else that would ensure that our Supplier is doing what he said he would in answering the CA. I have suggested to our Supplier that we would be more then happy to order the material in 75ft rolls if that means the problem is eliminated, but he has not responded to that yet. A sampling plan of 1-2 rolls of each box is not acceptable, since it would be a hit and miss of catching a roll that might contain the overlapping. So any suggestions? I've been thinking about the verification all morning and can't seem to find an answer. Thanks Covers :thanks:

In that situation, monitor to see if it happens. If it does at all over the next 6 months (or appropriate time depending on frequency of shipments), then they didn't implement an effective CA. If it doesn't, the DATA indicates that it was effective.

I would probably do an audit of the facility (if feasible). This would be one of the only ways to verify that ANYTHING had been done at all.

Ok, here is my Problem. We supplied parts to a Customer that had a double adhesive backing on the back, because the Supplier of the material to us, overlapped the material to make a 100ft roll out of a 75 ft and 25 ft roll. Usually we can detect the problem if the material winds itself around the tool and the gears of the machine get chewed up. After several times we asked the Supplier not to do that anymore, and the problem went away. Now it has started up again and like I said it went unnoticed and parts were shipped to our customer.
My question is , in answering the CA issued to me from our Customer how can I verify the effectiveness of the Corrective action to our supplier so they don't do this anymore? Short of having to unwind every roll, to check the backing I can't actually see anything else that would ensure that our Supplier is doing what he said he would in answering the CA. I have suggested to our Supplier that we would be more then happy to order the material in 75ft rolls if that means the problem is eliminated, but he has not responded to that yet. A sampling plan of 1-2 rolls of each box is not acceptable, since it would be a hit and miss of catching a roll that might contain the overlapping. So any suggestions? I've been thinking about the verification all morning and can't seem to find an answer. Thanks Covers :thanks:

Short of actually visiting the supplier to see for yourself what's been done, there are a couple of possibilities. If you have an advantageous position--that is, if loss of your business will hurt the supplier, you can always use that as a weapon. A threat of no new business can sometimes work wonders. If you're a small fish in the supplier's big pond, it might be more difficult to get their attention. If all else fails, and if the supplier is ISO-registered, and you're sure that they're just yanking your chain with CA implementation, you can want to write them a nice letter and suggest that their registrar might be interested in the efficacy of their CA process.

In that situation, monitor to see if it happens. If it does at all over the next 6 months (or appropriate time depending on frequency of shipments), then they didn't implement an effective CA. If it doesn't, the DATA indicates that it was effective.

I would probably do an audit of the facility (if feasible). This would be one of the only ways to verify that ANYTHING had been done at all.

I am still actually awaiting a answer from the Supplier to see what they are planning on doing. A audit of the facility would be nice, but I am not that privileged to do so. We receive this material quit often, several times a month, so my monitoring frame would be a little shorter, but what is to say the Supplier refers back to his good ole ways of doing things and we miss it, and it goes on to our Customer. Which at any case would issue me with another CA because of repeat issue, which in terms will put us in the Containment Category and they will use a Sorting Company to inspect the Parts and charge us for it. And not to say I will look like a fool because we can't control our Supplier. Can you tell I have been stewing on this all day?

Short of actually visiting the supplier to see for yourself what's been done, there are a couple of possibilities. If you have an advantageous position--that is, if loss of your business will hurt the supplier, you can always use that as a weapon. A threat of no new business can sometimes work wonders. If you're a small fish in the supplier's big pond, it might be more difficult to get their attention. If all else fails, and if the supplier is ISO-registered, and you're sure that they're just yanking your chain with CA implementation, you can want to write them a nice letter and suggest that their registrar might be interested in the efficacy of their CA process.

I am not sure how big this Supplier is. I would have to research and see if we are actually a big Customer to them or like you said are a small fish in a pond. I have even suggested as a possible solution to the problem that we would order the material in 75ft. rolls, which would be a sure fire way of getting rid of the problem. But so far I have not gotten a response on that.
And I did not know that I could do something like that, writing a letter in terms of letting their Registrar know about their CA system...wow. That might be something to look at.

Agreed with Jim, on site auditing is the good method to ensure the corrective action is close effectively.

We can have good method to approach on it but if the we are the only small fish of the big pond of supplier, definitely it is very hard to deal with them. Review the supplier rating in the year end and sourcing the new supplier for back up or contigency plan.

The last thing you want to do is threaten the supplier by reporting them to the Registrar or the loss of your business. This is not constructive at all. Consider any of the following options instead

1. Ask your supplier to provide a Certificate of Assurance or Certificate of Compliance with each shipment to ensure compliance and responsibility for meeting your requirement. Againg this depends on how much clout you have as a customer.
2. Send one of your technical personnel to visit your supplier to review their operational controls and make recommendations.
3. Push to get a decision to have 75 ft rolls if you know for a fact that it would resolve the problem.
4. If the supplier is not local, consider using a consultant in the supplier's town to go audit them on your behalf.
5. As long as you continue to have the problem, consider using additional QC checks to catch it and negotiate with the supplier to pay all or most of the costs of these checks.
6. Consider finding and approving alternate suppiiers. This would be more of a longer term solution.

The message is to work with your supplier to resolve the problem to your mutual satisfaction and if you see your efforts going nowhere, implement internal QC checks until you find alternative suppliers.
Remember, the onus is still on you to supply conforming product to your customer, regardless of any problems with your suppliers.

It's getting late and that's all I can think of at the moment.

I came in to work this morning, and I had 4 rolls of the Material sitting on my table that our Production personal can't use. I have googled the Supplier, and they are quit a big Company with 3 different Locations. So I guess I am a small fish in a big pond.
They are TS certified.
I don't have the ability or the resources to have an 3rd party auditor go into their facility to audit their implemented PA's.
I am looking into having the Material inspected here ( having the rolls unwind prior to release to production) and tracking the time and cost of me doing this and having it charged back to the Supplier. I don't think we ever went down this road before since I have been working here, so it is something I need to have ok'd by Management prior of notifying the Supplier of this status.

Thanks all of you who suggested ideas as always it is greatly appreciated.
:thanks:

I came in to work this morning, and I had 4 rolls of the Material sitting on my table that our Production personal can't use. I have googled the Supplier, and they are quit a big Company with 3 different Locations. So I guess I am a small fish in a big pond.
They are TS certified.
I don't have the ability or the resources to have an 3rd party auditor go into their facility to audit their implemented PA's.
I am looking into having the Material inspected here ( having the rolls unwind prior to release to production) and tracking the time and cost of me doing this and having it charged back to the Supplier. I don't think we ever went down this road before since I have been working here, so it is something I need to have ok'd by Management prior of notifying the Supplier of this status.

Thanks all of you who suggested ideas as always it is greatly appreciated.
:thanks:

Hello try2makeit,

Your proposed actions are very reasonable. Whether you are a "small fish" or not should not impact your actions to get things corrected to your satisfaction. By the way, do you request PPAP from them? If nothing works, look for another supplier or notify their Registrar. As a last resort of course. Be vigilant!

Good luck!

Stijloor.

The last thing you want to do is threaten the supplier by reporting them to the Registrar or the loss of your business. This is not constructive at all. Consider any of the following options instead
It is constructive if it works. Note that I recommended suggesting that a call to the registrar might be in order, but only as a last resort. Note that this is also constructive in a larger sense; the integrity of the whole registration scheme is much in question these days, and holding peoples' feet to the fire in the face of major situations is something that should happen more often. This may also be the only recourse a customer has in a small fish/big pond situation.

As for no new business, it's a sure way to get a supplier's attention when nothing else seems to be working, and there's certainly nothing wrong with it. You have to exhaust the diplomatic possibilities first, but I thought from the sound of the OP's post that he had probably done that already.

1. Ask your supplier to provide a Certificate of Assurance or Certificate of Compliance with each shipment to ensure compliance and responsibility for meeting your requirement. Againg this depends on how much clout you have as a customer.

Certificates of conformance, or assurance, or inspection or what have you are mostly useless. I've seen far too many times when a supplier has even submitted a detailed inspection report that turned out to be worthless.

2. Send one of your technical personnel to visit your supplier to review their operational controls and make recommendations.
3. Push to get a decision to have 75 ft rolls if you know for a fact that it would resolve the problem.
4. If the supplier is not local, consider using a consultant in the supplier's town to go audit them on your behalf.
5. As long as you continue to have the problem, consider using additional QC checks to catch it and negotiate with the supplier to pay all or most of the costs of these checks.
6. Consider finding and approving alternate suppiiers. This would be more of a longer term solution. All good suggestions. :agree1:

Just thought I let you guys know, that I went to Management and asked to have permission to notify our Supplier that we (well I) will sort thru his Material at his expense until we are certain all preventive actions have been put in place . I was really surprised when I got that answer. :magic:

Thanks all :thanks:

Just thought I let you guys know, that I went to Management and asked to have permission to notify our Supplier that we (well I) will sort thru his Material at his expense until we are certain all preventive actions have been put in place . I was really surprised when I got that answer. :magic:

Thanks all :thanks:

Great! :applause:

"You never get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate." :D

(I read that in an airline magazine advertisement some time ago.)

Good luck with your supplier development process.

Stijloor.

Just thought I let you guys know, that I went to Management and asked to have permission to notify our Supplier that we (well I) will sort thru his Material at his expense until we are certain all preventive actions have been put in place . I was really surprised when I got that answer. :magic:

Thanks all :thanks:

If the supplier goes along with it, that's great, but unless you have language in your purchase contract to the effect that suppliers may be charged back for these things, the supplier could refuse the charges, or insist on doing the sorting himself.

The last thing you want to do is threaten the supplier by reporting them to the Registrar or the loss of your business. This is not constructive at all.

Art,

The site www.whosregistered.com permits feedback on supplier performance/behavior to their Certification Body (Registrar) and can even be elevated to the Accrediting Body. Look here (http://www.whosregistered.com/iso/form.php?stage=3&search_total=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whosregistered.com%2Fiso%2Fform.php%3FCompany%3D%26city%3D%26sp%3D%26country%3D%26certificate_number%3D%26Scope%3D%26registrar_secret%3D%26begin%3D0%26stage%3D2&connector_id=1) for a sample display.

Stijloor.

Just thought I let you guys know, that I went to Management and asked to have permission to notify our Supplier that we (well I) will sort thru his Material at his expense until we are certain all preventive actions have been put in place . I was really surprised when I got that answer. :magic:

Thanks all :thanks:

It sounds like originally there was a corrective action put in place by your supplier but they didn't have good controls to maintain the corrective action. Now that you have the suppliers attention, I would try and work with key people from your supplier to understand why the controls broke down so you are not in the same position a few months down the road. It would also create a positive relationship with your supplier.