A while back we had a preassessment audit with our auditor from our CB. He made a comment that we would have to fix part of it for our registration audit. Let me back track a bit first... When I arrived for my first day of work here, I noticed these great posters that were placed around the workplace where they could easily be seen by anyone. When I read it, I found it very motivating. Someone my bosses knew had these posters made up for them when they opened shop. They read:

"Quality is never an accident; It is always the result of the highest intentions, sincere efforts, intelligent directions, and skillful executions; It represents the wise choice of many alternatives"

Fast-forward to the present... I knew this would not be sufficient for meeting the requirements of ISO 9001. However, I still wanted to include this on the page of the quality policy. So I added another paragraph that fulfilled the requirements. It reads:

"(the company I work for) is dedicated to customer satisfaction by providing quality products in a timely manner while meeting regulatory requirements through teamwork and commitment to continual improvement by establishing and reviewing quality objectives."

The auditor said that this may pose a problem. How do I get around this? I don't want to take the posters down. But I don't want to receive a finding because of this. Any suggestions? :frust: :confused:

Well - the problem I see is that the initial quote probably not an original by someone in your company. If you Google it you'll see that it's credited to William Foster or Willa Foster.

So while it's a nice sentiment it's a generic slogan, not truly representative of your company.

I'd say keep the slogan if you find it motivating, but don't combine it with the quality policy.

Okay. Thank you for the info - I did not know who it was a quote from, but did have a feeling that the person who gave them these nice posters was not the original poet behind these words. :lol:

He made some comment about it not working when the actual audit happens... so should I just take them down so the auditor does not confuse it with the quality policy? I mean, they're pretty much in every room!! :bonk: And I don't want to jeopardize our registration.:nope:

Kyle,
Let me ask you a few questions (I'll even attempt to answer some of them for you).

1) Is this policy appropriate to your company’s purpose? (I can’t answer that)
2) Does it contain a commitment to comply with requirements? (“…while meeting regulatory requirements…by establishing and reviewing quality objectives”)
3) Does it contain a commitment to continual improvement? (“…commitment to continual improvement…” )
4) Does it provide a framework for establishing and reviewing quality objectives? (“…by establishing and reviewing quality objectives…” )
5) Is it communicated and understood within the organization? (Although I can’t really tell if it is understood, you did say this….” I noticed these great posters that were placed around the workplace” )
6) Is it reviewed for continuing suitability? (You mentioned “I knew this would not be sufficient for meeting the requirements of ISO 9001” That kinda sounds to me like it was reviewed by you at least )
I look at all of the above, and can only wonder what problem the auditor sees with the policy.

A while back we had a preassessment audit with our auditor from our CB. He made a comment that we would have to fix part of it for our registration audit. Let me back track a bit first... When I arrived for my first day of work here, I noticed these great posters that were placed around the workplace where they could easily be seen by anyone. When I read it, I found it very motivating. Someone my bosses knew had these posters made up for them when they opened shop. They read:

"Quality is never an accident; It is always the result of the highest intentions, sincere efforts, intelligent directions, and skillful executions; It represents the wise choice of many alternatives"

Fast-forward to the present... I knew this would not be sufficient for meeting the requirements of ISO 9001. However, I still wanted to include this on the page of the quality policy. So I added another paragraph that fulfilled the requirements. It reads:

"(the company I work for) is dedicated to customer satisfaction by providing quality products in a timely manner while meeting regulatory requirements through teamwork and commitment to continual improvement by establishing and reviewing quality objectives."

The auditor said that this may pose a problem. How do I get around this? I don't want to take the posters down. But I don't want to receive a finding because of this. Any suggestions? :frust: :confused:

The auditor said that what might pose a problem? I personally don't see anything useful in using platitudes in policy statements, but if your statement meets the requirements of the standard, what's the problem?

Well - the problem I see is that the initial quote probably not an original by someone in your company. If you Google it you'll see that it's credited to William Foster or Willa Foster.

So while it's a nice sentiment it's a generic slogan, not truly representative of your company.

I'd say keep the slogan if you find it motivating, but don't combine it with the quality policy.

As to the source of the quotation, it's apparently up in the air (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=434239). The big problem I've seen with Internet quotation sites is that they rarely provide actual source information, and for many quotations it's very difficult to track down an actual written source.

Okay. Thank you for the info - I did not know who it was a quote from, but did have a feeling that the person who gave them these nice posters was not the original poet behind these words. :lol:

He made some comment about it not working when the actual audit happens... so should I just take them down so the auditor does not confuse it with the quality policy? I mean, they're pretty much in every room!! :bonk: And I don't want to jeopardize our registration.:nope:

If what you're referring to are just (allegedly) motivational posters, then the auditor is way off base. On the other hand, if the posters say that the quotation in question is the quality policy, and your actual policy says something else in addition to the quote, I think it is indeed a problem.

Aside from the fact that it obviously doesn't meet the standard's definition of a quality policy, it doesn't even meet any rational definition of a policy. Saying that quality doesn't happen accidentally isn't the same thing as telling how quality is supposed to happen. And leave us not forget the sage advice of Dr. Deming (http://www.lii.net/deming.html):
Eliminate the use of slogans, posters and exhortations for the work force, demanding Zero Defects and new levels of productivity, without providing methods. Such exhortations only create adversarial relationships; the bulk of the causes of low quality and low productivity belong to the system, and thus lie beyond the power of the work force.

I look at all of the above, and can only wonder what problem the auditor sees with the policy.

The problem I think he's seeing is that, on these posters that are posted, the required portion of the quality policy is not included. I get the feeling that his thinking is that if it's not directly pertaining to the requirements of ISO, why include it? I feel though, that if it's motivating our employees to work carefully to produce quality product, why not make it a part of the quality policy? Should I just add the meat and potatoes of the quality policy onto the posters? The auditor is going to ask the employees what the quality policy is, right?? :o

Okay. Thank you for the info - I did not know who it was a quote from, but did have a feeling that the person who gave them these nice posters was not the original poet behind these words. :lol:

He made some comment about it not working when the actual audit happens... so should I just take them down so the auditor does not confuse it with the quality policy? I mean, they're pretty much in every room!! :bonk: And I don't want to jeopardize our registration.:nope:

no - absolutely not.

you can paper your walls with quality slogans if you want.

just make sure the people in your company don't confuse it with the quality policy. The auditor would, frankly, have to be an idiot if you have to explain to him/her more than once that your quality policy is XXXXX and everything else is an slogan pinned up as a motivator.

If what you're referring to are just (allegedly) motivational posters, then the auditor is way off base. On the other hand, if the posters say that the quotation in question is the quality policy, and your actual policy says something else in addition to the quote, I think it is indeed a problem.

Aside from the fact that it obviously doesn't meet the standard's definition of a quality policy, it doesn't even meet any rational definition of a policy. Saying that quality doesn't happen accidentally isn't the same thing as telling how quality is supposed to happen. And leave us not forget the sage advice of Dr. Deming (http://www.lii.net/deming.html):

Slipping off topic -
the problem I have with that particular Deming point is that most places I've seen seem to forget the "without providing methods" part and just go on an anti-slogan crusade.

I see nothing wrong with slogans or exhortations if you do provide the methods to acheive them.

If what you're referring to are just (allegedly) motivational posters, then the auditor is way off base. On the other hand, if the posters say that the quotation in question is the quality policy, and your actual policy says something else in addition to the quote, I think it is indeed a problem.

So what you're saying is: if they are purely motivational, keep them up. The Auditor cannot write us up for having them. (although, you obviously don't recommend having them?) Basically, leave the meat and potatoes. Throw out the frou-frou? :lol:

So what you're saying is: if they are purely motivational, keep them up. The Auditor cannot write us up for having them. (although, you obviously don't recommend having them?) Basically, leave the meat and potatoes. Throw out the frou-frou? :lol:

You still haven't answered the salient question: Do these posters say something like, "Our Quality Policy is {insert quotation}"? If so, there's a problem, imo. If not, then it's none of the auditor's business what's hanging on the walls. It occurs to me that the auditor's point might be that while the posters don't say anything about the quote being the quality policy, if the quote is included in the policy it might be confusing. If this is the case, the auditor is still off base, because he should only be concerning himself with the actual policy, the one you identify in your documentation and communicate to the workforce.

You still haven't answered the salient question: Do these posters say something like, "Our Quality Policy is {insert quotation}"? If so, there's a problem, imo. If not, then it's none of the auditor's business what's hanging on the walls. It occurs to me that the auditor's point might be that while the posters don't say anything about the quote being the quality policy, if the quote is included in the policy it might be confusing. If this is the case, the auditor is still off base, because he should only be concerning himself with the actual policy, the one you identify in your documentation and communicate to the workforce.

I'm sorry... NO. The posters do not say anywhere on them that the statement they contain is our quality policy. So I guess then we're fine to keep them up. Thanks for that answer. My other question is: How many people actually post their quality policy around the work place? I know it is required to be communicated and understood throughout the organization (that hasn't been hard... there are only 5 of us! :lmao: )

I'm sorry... NO. The posters do not say anywhere on them that the statement they contain is our quality policy. So I guess then we're fine to keep them up. Thanks for that answer. My other question is: How many people actually post their quality policy around the work place? I know it is required to be communicated and understood throughout the organization (that hasn't been hard... there are only 5 of us! :lmao: )

We have it posted in every office (with the quality objectives) and a on a large sign in the break room.
It's also on the back of every employee's scan card that they use for opening and closing jobs in the MRP system.

We taught them that ISO audits are open books tests. Feel free to look at the card if the auditor asks about the quality policy.

I'm sorry... NO. The posters do not say anywhere on them that the statement they contain is our quality policy. So I guess then we're fine to keep them up. Thanks for that answer. My other question is: How many people actually post their quality policy around the work place? I know it is required to be communicated and understood throughout the organization (that hasn't been hard... there are only 5 of us! :lmao: )

As Scott suggests, a lot of places give people some kind of card with the policy on it, and others do put up posters and other wall hangings. So long as people know where to find it and understand their contributions to fulfillment of it, it doesn't matter much.

I do not see how the auditor could raise an issue with the posters. Lots of companies display various posters and slogans related to quality, safety, attendance, etc.

We have framed copies of our policy hung at various points throughout the facility. We also conduct documented training on the quality system and policy during new-hire orientation and then repeat this annually for all employees as part of the effort to communicate the policy throughout the organization.

Does your policy say that you intend to improve and meet customer expectations? If it does then it doesn't matter what else you put in it, up to and includiing a recipe for Toll House Cookies.

Just remember, everything you put into you policy is auditable and your feet can be held to the fire because of it.

Tell the auditor to get past the policy tripe and on to the real system stuff.

I noticed these great posters ... They read:

"Quality is never an accident; It is always the result of the highest intentions, sincere efforts, intelligent directions, and skillful executions; It represents the wise choice of many alternatives"

Love the quote. No problem - keep it as a quote/motivator.

BUT... it doesn't actually say what 'quality' is. It's talking about how 'it' happens, but it don't actually say 'this is what quality means at Bloggs Pty Ltd/this is OUR policy on quality'.

Again, your policy says you provide 'quality products'. That q-word again. What ARE 'quality' products to you?

It's a bit difficult commenting when your auditor wasn't clear about the nature of the problem. You have a right to have this clearly communicated - it's impossible to solve a problem when one isn't clear about the nature of it. I'd contact them and explain that you aren't clear. Ask for clear delineation of what the problem is (in writing), including reference to the specific clause/s that are considered as not being met or not fully.

I see no problem however, in using the quote, and linking it to the policy either generally ('an illustration of how we approach quality') or specifically(as in 'we favour Smith's approach to policy, and we do/think blah blah...') if you wish. There WOULD be a problem if you had an unattributed quote that you referred to as your policy but something else written elsewhere, also purporting to be the policy.

Don't worry about it.

Whether you use someone else's quotes in your policy or not is irrelevant. The point is that the documented policy becomes yours as soon as your top management adopt it.

The posters (even though they may have been in place before the policy was finalized and don't cover the whole policy statement) are part of your internal communications process (5.5.3) and are contributing to employees understanding the policy (satisfying a huge chunk of clause 5.3.d). Describe this to the auditor.

If you get a finding refer them to the Cove - we can re-educate him / her. :lol:

Don't worry about it.

Whether you use someone else's quotes in your policy or not is irrelevant. The point is that the documented policy becomes yours as soon as your top management adopt it.

The posters (even though they may have been in place before the policy was finalized and don't cover the whole policy statement) are part of your internal communications process (5.5.3) and are contributing to employees understanding the policy (satisfying a huge chunk of clause 5.3.d). Describe this to the auditor.



Paul's post about says it all. I would only add that I have seen some very obtuse quality policies in my time and I've not seen audit findings issued against them.

If you get a finding refer them to the Cove - we can re-educate him / her. :lol:

:lmao: I already have!!!! :lmao: He was happy to hear there was such a site.

Kyle,

Auditors should not dictate what your Quality Policy should be. As long your employees know what your company's Quality Policy is and most importantly, what they do and how they support it, that is what is important. External auditors sometimes say things like that because they have narrow vision when it comes to ISO and QMS. They seem to want all their clients to do everything the same to save them time. External auditors need to remember the QMS belongs to the client and as long as they ae in compliance, they can do what they want. I had a client that wanted to have their Quality Policy say "We make great stuff!" They felt that statement said it all and they could prove it. The external auditor turned up his nose at that and they caved Too bad. Your external auditor has to be careful not to play consultant - he is your auditor.

All the best! You'll do great!

ISOChick - agreed!

If the CB auditor is worth their pay check, they should be able to see if management can 'talk to' the policy. I'm guessing that in most organizations, someone is responsible for most of the ruling policies: employment, smoking, safety etc. and they can 'talk to' the policy. They know if it's being implemented etc. They may even be kept awake at night worrying about meeting the policy - since many are driven from regulatory requirements.

If top management are responsible for the Quality Policy - can they 'talk to' it? Can they say it's being implemented?

If you look at 5.3 of the standards, the poster does generally meet the requirements. Since it is visibly posted with the approval of management it is appropriate to the purpose of the organization where "Quality is never an accident".

If you interpret "It is always the result of the highest intentions, sincere efforts, intelligent directions, and skillful executions" as a commitment to comply with requirements and continually improve the quality management system then that part of the standard is covered.

The requirement for providing a framework for establishing and reviewing quality objectives could be included by "It represents the wise choice of many alternatives".

The fact that it is a quote is no different then copying the numerous quality policies that exist. I am sure there are duplications if not exactly than very similar. It would be an interesting finding if the auditor challenged it because they would have to specifically show how it does not meet the standard.

Bill Pflanz

If you look at 5.3 of the standards, the poster does generally meet the requirements. Since it is visibly posted with the approval of management it is appropriate to the purpose of the organization where "Quality is never an accident".

If you interpret "It is always the result of the highest intentions, sincere efforts, intelligent directions, and skillful executions" as a commitment to comply with requirements and continually improve the quality management system then that part of the standard is covered.

The requirement for providing a framework for establishing and reviewing quality objectives could be included by "It represents the wise choice of many alternatives".

The fact that it is a quote is no different then copying the numerous quality policies that exist. I am sure there are duplications if not exactly than very similar. It would be an interesting finding if the auditor challenged it because they would have to specifically show how it does not meet the standard.

Bill Pflanz

Making a lovely observation about quality isn't the same thing as having a policy regarding quality, even if you choose to call it a policy. It's really just a motherhood statement, no more enlightening than just saying, "Quality is a good thing."

Making a lovely observation about quality isn't the same thing as having a policy regarding quality, even if you choose to call it a policy. It's really just a motherhood statement, no more enlightening than just saying, "Quality is a good thing."

Well, all policy statements are just words, aren't they?

I don't think it's possible to evaluate a quality policy on the basis of the words alone. It's necessary to know something about the organizational context and how the leadership uses the policy.

Well, all policy statements are just words, aren't they?

I don't think it's possible to evaluate a quality policy on the basis of the words alone. It's necessary to know something about the organizational context and how the leadership uses the policy.

The content of the policy may be compared to the requirements, but whether or not the policy really means anything can only be ascertained by the results. If my quality policy is "Quality is a good thing," (which is essentially what the quotation says), we can be pretty sure it doesn't meet the basic general definition of "policy," let alone the ISO requirements.

I'm sorry... NO. The posters do not say anywhere on them that the statement they contain is our quality policy. So I guess then we're fine to keep them up. Thanks for that answer. My other question is: How many people actually post their quality policy around the work place? I know it is required to be communicated and understood throughout the organization (that hasn't been hard... there are only 5 of us! :lmao: )

Our Quality Policy is posted and framed in just about every room of our 60,000 sq. foot mfg facility. It's in each breakroom, bathroom and office. Almost all of our customers and suppliers who are ISO registered have it displayed prominantly in their facility. Why? Well, for one reason we actually believe our quality and mission statements, so it's no problem for us. We have about 65 employees and its driven home from the date of hire. It's also easy to brush off the auditor when they ask about our quality statement and our employees knowledge of it by simply pointing. So, to answer your question, I think the an overwhelming majority of companies, especially manufacturing companies, post it around the work place. IMO.

Well, all policy statements are just words, aren't they?
If they are not used, acted upon, and embedded into the organisation, and don't underpin what it does and how, yes. ie, 'communicated and understood within the organisation' (5.3d)

The content of the policy may be compared to the requirements, but whether or not the policy really means anything can only be ascertained by the results.

Yes, indeed. Above and beyond mere posting of things on the walls. Some of my most successful clients don't have their policy posted on their walls. But they live and breathe it every day, and it underpins what they do, how they act, and the decisions they make. I'll take that over wall posters (though both together often works well).