I'm sure there has probably been a discussion on the correct form of certain words used within ISO 9001. But I have been unable to find it. My question is one regarding non-conformance. There is the thing, is it non-conformance? Or is it nonconformance? Or, indeed, is it non conformance? I have seen this written in all three different forms. Sometimes on the same website! Now the main difference could be that of UK and US English usage. I'm led to believe that the correct UK usage is non-conformance. Please correct me if this is not true. Can any one help me out with this one? Is there a definitive answer?

Oh, and for the eagle eyed amongst you - the title for this thread was mis-punctuated on purpose :D It's so easy to overlook when checking documents.

NONCONFORMANCE (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=1&q=nonconformance)

My question is one regarding non-conformance. There is the thing, is it non-conformance? Or is it nonconformance? Or, indeed, is it non conformance?

I write it as written in ISO 9001:2000:

Nonconformance
Nonconformities

Stijloor.

in the ISO Guidance on the Terminology used in ISO 9001:2000 and ISO9004:2000
(ISO/TC 176/SC 2/N 526R)

It's "nonconformity" - not nonconformance, non-conformance or non conformance.

How's that strike ya? :D

in the ISO Guidance on the Terminology used in ISO 9001:2000 and ISO9004:2000
(ISO/TC 176/SC 2/N 526R)

It's "nonconformity" - not nonconformance, non-conformance or non conformance.

How's that strike ya? :D

Let's see what Jim Wynne says.....:D

Stijloor.

Regardless of what term you use, wouldn't you define the term in your own system documentation? As long as it is well defined, you may just be arguing about the vagaries of the English language. I try to use nonconformances (without spaces or hyphens) but at any given time I am sure I have used the other variations.

Bill Pflanz

A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. Romeo in Romeo and Juliett

It can be called anything you want...today I like the word "bump" and I define "bump" as the "non-fulfillment of a requirement" and as something when identifed requires corrective action.

Don't get all wrapped around the axle over what something is called, the important thing is the meaning behind the word.

Well . . .
There was a time, early in my days here in the Cove, when I was VERY hard-nosed about spelling and grammatical errors. Lately (say the last year or so), I have adopted the attitude of most modern lexicographers about the English language being ever fluid and ever changing and that the job of the lexicographer is merely to note and catalog the changes, NOT dictate a stale, moribund usage.

Hence, my contribution to the debate is "Whichever you choose to use, be consistent in ALL your documents."

:topic: Do you want a Moderator to change the thread title to reflect "It's" versus "Its?"

I'll bite...why is this an issue?

I like the words abnormality or failure. For some of our more zealous ISO folk in our company, they see NC and immediately think it's product-related. Since we developed a Business Management System (ISO 9001, ISO 14001, OHSAS 1008, ISRS 6th Edition, and our own company requirements), we use the word 'abnormality' to indicate a hiccup and 'failure' to indicate that the hiccup required action.

Why not anomaly or abberation?

Why not anomaly or abberation?

Abberation is just cruel! Failures have feelings, too.

I was going to suggest deviation or deviant but I thought our SPC-inclined members might get all excited. ;)

Abberation is just cruel! Failures have feelings, too.

I was going to suggest deviation or deviant but I thought our SPC-inclined members might get all excited. ;)I thought of those as well, but didn't want to touch them.:lmao:

I call them either "dings" of "f___ ups" depending on the severity.

not in documents though...

What kind of "__ups" Scott?:lol:

I like "bump" today.............Tomorrow I may change it to a Wes event:lmao:

Let's see what Jim Wynne says.....:D

Stijloor.

Jim says to read Wes's post. The dictionaries haven't all caught up with the word yet; it's still in the realm of jargon. Personally, I favor "nonconformance" for reasons of economy (why add a hyphen or space if it's not necessary?) and the precedent of "nonconformist."

What kind of "__ups" Scott?:lol:

I like "bump" today.............Tomorrow I may change it to a Wes event:lmao:

even more rarely I might refer to something a "Cluster F____" ;)

even more rarely I might refer to something a "Cluster F____" ;)That's only if there are more than one "foul up" -

Since the English language is ever changing, I like the idea of a "Wes event" until the next buzzword comes along.

semi-off topic:
The way most organizations seem to be conducting Kaizen events (operating under the illusion any change is an improvement), I think they would be more properly termed "Wes events" using the new, updated lexicon created by Randy.;) Of course, Scott's term might be MORE accurate!:lmao: We'd just explain the term is Scottese instead of Japanese:notme:

Please, won't somebody think of the children?

What'll happen to the abbreviations NCR and NC if we concatenate non conformance, NR and N? <shudder>

Please, won't somebody think of the children?

What'll happen to the abbreviations NCR and NC if we concatenate non conformance, NR and N? <shudder>

Easy... don't issue NCR's.

We issue CAR's for process Foul ups and DMR's for material Foul Ups
(Corrective Action Request and Discrepant Material Report respectively.)

I've recognized some FUBAR's myself:lmao:

I've recognized some FUBAR's myself:lmao:How can you, if it's FUBAR?

Friends,

A FUBAR (http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/09/FUBAR%201.jpg) from Stanley Tools. :D
I'm not kidding....:nope:

Stijloor.

Nonconformance.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "nonconformance" is not a word. "Nonconformity" is a noun.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "nonconformance" is not a word. "Nonconformity" is a noun.

Do you mean that "nonconformance" doesn't appear in the OED? Or that the OED says that it's "not a word"? Usage by people determines what's a word, not dictionaries, unless you're playing Scrabble.

Do you mean that "nonconformance" doesn't appear in the OED? Or that the OED says that it's "not a word"? Usage by people determines what's a word, not dictionaries, unless you're playing Scrabble."not dictionaries, unless you're playing Scrabble."
Even then, everybody in the game has to agree on WHICH dictionary, because not everyone has the latest edition of the "OFFICIAL" Scrabble dictionary used in Scrabble tournaments.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "nonconformance" is not a word. "Nonconformity" is a noun.
:topic:As I wrote earlier, modern lexicographers do not dictate whether a word is "correct," they merely note and record words as they are used. Different dictionaries are on different update cycles. OED is an excellent source for word "etymology," but the OED process is long and painstaking before it considers a new word or word form has sufficient "usage" to be entered in the OED.

This dictionary
http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/NONCONFORMANCE
does acknowledge the usage and does so without hyphenation.

"not dictionaries, unless you're playing Scrabble."
Even then, everybody in the game has to agree on WHICH dictionary, because not everyone has the latest edition of the "OFFICIAL" Scrabble dictionary used in Scrabble tournaments.


:topic:As I wrote earlier, modern lexicographers do not dictate whether a word is "correct," they merely note and record words as they are used. Different dictionaries are on different update cycles. OED is an excellent source for word "etymology," but the OED process is long and painstaking before it considers a new word or word form has sufficient "usage" to be entered in the OED.

This dictionary
http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/NONCONFORMANCE
does acknowledge the usage and does so without hyphenation.
Hello Wes,
A VERY HAPPY AND QUALITY FILLED NEW YEAR to you. :D
You are right.Dictionary.com also recognises Nonconformance while Non-conformance or Non conformance fetches no result. :agree1:

The term nonconformance is referred in ISO 14001 standard and not in ISO 9001 - the ISO 9001 standard states nonconforming product and nonconformity.

The term nonconformance is referred in ISO 14001 standard and not in ISO 9001 - the ISO 9001 standard states nonconforming product and nonconformity.

Ajit,

You made me very curious! :D

ISO 9001:2000 (excluding the annex):

"Nonconformities" is used 10 times
"Nonconforming" is used 5 times
"Nonconformity" is used 2 times

ISO 14001:2004 (excluding the annex)

"Nonconformity" is used 10 times
"Nonconformance" could not be found

What a way to spend a Saturday morning....:D

Stijloor.

"Nonconformance" could not be found [/LIST]
What a way to spend a Saturday morning....:D

Stijloor.

Yes, Stijloor.

Nonconformance could be found in ISO 14001: 1996 and not in 2004 version.

Yes, Stijloor. Hopefully your weekend goes well :)

Nonconformance could be found in ISO 14001: 1996 and not in 2004 version.. Sorry I was seeing the comparison between ISO 9001:2000 with ISO 14001:1996 standard.

. Sorry I was seeing the comparison between ISO 9001:2000 with ISO 14001:1996 standard.No auditor I have ever known would call attention to an organization using "nonconformance" instead of the word "nonconformity."

Frankly, my preference is for using conformance and nonconformance because the words "conformity" and "nonconformity" sound antiquated and stilted to my American ear. Of course, much of the language in ISO Standards sounds antiquated and stilted to my American ear. It's a result of the documents being decided upon by committees of folks, many of whom learned English from old British texts, not American ones. Here in the Cove, we see many Britishisms and other regional usages as a result of the disparity between versions of English used in countries as varied as USA, Canada, Scotland, Ireland, India, Australia.

Some of the more frequent ones:
while/whilst
among/amongst
amid/midst
color/colour

Next, we will probably see English (or so some might call it) from old poetry like Robert Burns:Address To The Toothache

1786
Type: Address

My curse upon your venom'd stang,
That shoots my tortur'd gums alang,
An' thro' my lug gies mony a twang,
Wi' gnawing vengeance,
Tearing my nerves wi' bitter pang,
Like racking engines!

When fevers burn, or argues freezes,
Rheumatics gnaw, or colics squeezes,
Our neibor's sympathy can ease us,
Wi' pitying moan;
But thee-thou hell o' a' diseases-
Aye mocks our groan.

Adown my beard the slavers trickle
I throw the wee stools o'er the mickle,
While round the fire the giglets keckle,
To see me loup,
While, raving mad, I wish a heckle
Were in their doup!

In a' the numerous human dools,
Ill hairsts, daft bargains, cutty stools,
Or worthy frien's rak'd i' the mools, -
Sad sight to see!
The tricks o' knaves, or fash o'fools,
Thou bear'st the gree!

Where'er that place be priests ca' hell,
Where a' the tones o' misery yell,
An' ranked plagues their numbers tell,
In dreadfu' raw,
Thou, Toothache, surely bear'st the bell,
Amang them a'!

O thou grim, mischief-making chiel,
That gars the notes o' discord squeel,
Till daft mankind aft dance a reel
In gore, a shoe-thick,
Gie a' the faes o' Scotland's weal
A townmond's toothache! Even I would need a glossary to convert most of the words he used less than 300 years ago. (Ten years after the American Revolution of 1776!)

Heck. Abraham Lincoln used the term "fourscore" less than 150 years ago - today, only poets might use the term instead of "eighty."

Even today, some folks in Great Britain weigh themselves in "stone" instead of kilograms.The stone is a unit of weight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight). It is part of the Imperial system of weights and measures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_unit) used in the British Isles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles), and formerly used in most Commonwealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations) countries. It is equal to 14 pounds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_%28mass%29) and to 6.35029318 kilograms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram).
Eight stone make a hundredweight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredweight) in the Imperial system.
The plural form of stone is correctly stone, though stones is sometimes used, not usually by natives of the British Isles. The abbreviation is st.

I'm not sure about the math, though. Fourteen pounds times eight equals one hundred twelve pounds, but they seem to call it "hundredweight." What's twelve pounds among allies?;)

Hey guys,

Thanks for the responses. Both conformity and conformance are in the OED
I think where my confusion arose was with the hyphenation of the word. They do not put words into the dictionary that are a negative of an already existing word. They do however put non- in as a separate entry:bonk:

:topic:After delving deeper into the depths of askoxford.com I managed to discover a page on correct usage of the hyphen.

ASK OXFORD (http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/jargonbuster/e-h/hyphen?view=uk) and also a page discussing the common and more importantly 'as used by industry' hyphenation (see about 6 paragraphs down)

INFORMATICS (http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/department/docs/punctuation/node24.html#SECTION00071000000000000000)

It is apparent that even for the folks on the wrong side of the pond (England ;)) correct English and its usage is a difficult subject! I'll get back to my studies and buy a new dictionary! :read:

:thanx:

p.s. Sorry for the links - you'll have to cut and paste them in to your browsers. I don't have enough posts against my name to put them onto my posts as actual links.

ADDED : Anthony, I have corrected the links

:D Good morning to you. Thanks for adding the links in. It'll certainly make peoples lives easier. Guess I'll just have to pull my finger out and get posting some more.

Anthony

Yes, the OED said "Nonconformance is not a word." Come one, Jim, give me a break.

And as far as I know, the world wide process for ISO to define words is easy and they use any dictionary they want.:sarcasm:

Should I have been more specific in my intent? I stated, "According to the Oxford English Dictionary..."

I say everyone determine if the attached is the most recent version of ISO / IEC Diectives, part 2. If you determine that it is not the most recent version, please provide the most recent version. Then read the whole thing and get back to us.

You may want to review how synonyms are used and what "deprecated" means. "Conformance" is synonymous with "conformity" but deprecated.

I can't beleive I referred to a non-prefered dictionary (OED.) I should have gone to one of the following:

From ISO/IEC Directives, Part 2, 2001

A.2 Reference works for language
The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary
The Concise Oxford Dictionary
The Collins Concise English Dictionary
Webster’s New World College Dictionary
Chambers Concise Dictionary
Dictionnaire Robert
Dictionnaire Larousse
Dictionnaire des difficultés de la langue française, V. Thomas, Larousse

........ Guess I'll just have to pull my finger out and get posting some more.

Anthony

Yeah, eagerly waiting for more posts ;)

More confusion from me. :D

I did refer to the Concise Oxford Dictionary which is reference work for language per the ISO Directive. I thought I had the OED on my desk but I have the COD. I refered to an approprite reference work when I looked for the history, part of speech, and definition of "conformance.". The COD does not list "conformance."

Also, I should have mentioned that the ISO / IEC Directives, part 2 explains all about the strucutre of documents, formatting, numbering, symbols, all kinds of stuff. It can be a source of clarification when the structure of an ISO document or text is confusing.

Did anyone determine if the 2001 revision is the newest? What about "conformance" being a synonym for "conformity" but deprecated?

Did anyone determine if the 2001 revision is the newest? What about "conformance" being a synonym for "conformity" but deprecated?
Deprecated by whom?

A word about the OED and its siblings: It is, generally speaking, a dictionary of British English. It's a terrific resource, but if you want what I consider the best American dictionary, look to American Heritage.

3.6.1 of ISO 9000:2005 states that "the term 'conformace' is synonymous but depreated. I guess this means deprecated by ISO?

I wasn't stating my preferred dictionaries. I was stating what ISO specifies as reference works for language per ISO Directives. See A.2 of ISO / IEC Directives, Part 2.