Hey guys, obviously its late. I just got off (work).
Anyway it seems as though the QA department is the asshole of the company I work for.
Upper management won't give us "teeth" and lower management see us as a burden.
Let me give you some background.
I Started on the factory floor but was given an opportunity after 15 years to become a QA inspector. My meticulous nature was a factor as I had 2 errors since day one. I'm not bragging, its just that I am picky by nature.
A
I absolutely love my job and felt I could actually bring about a positive change at our company because I could bring some common sense to the table. Maybe a better way to put it is that I can give a perspective from the men who do the work day in, day out.
Also, I wanted the guys to look at QA as helpful and not as the people trying to get them in trouble.
Well my eyes have been opened to a new world of bullshit. I knew it existed before,but I have now experienced it first hand.
Now my old coworkers (some) see me as the enemy, the upper management sees me as the enemy. But I am supposed to make things better.
I can only assume that this is par for the course. Is there any advice that anyone can give me??

Welcome Sysyphus,

You are definitely not alone. Many here had similar complaints and we are glad you found us. Marc named this place the 'Cove' for some specific reasons and one of them is to provide a sanctuary in times of need.

Now that you had landed in the Cove, just forget about all the bad things that had happened. You need time and gigantic efforts to overcome or change the culture at your present workplace. You really need to plan and have a strategy to do it. Alternatively, you may want to weigh the risk/rewards elements and decide whether it's time to look around for a better place. With your kind of dedication, you're going to be an asset to many.

Be rational, share your thoughts here and you can be sure to get some very good feedbacks and advice.

Hello Sysyphus,

Welcome!

I find your name "Sysyphus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus)" interesting... Was it this figure you had in mind when you picked the name?

Many here at The Cove Forums can relate to that. You could do a search here and read how others have dealt with situations similar to yours.

For example, here is a recent thread that you may find interesting: "Lack of Management Commitment and Cooperation in Implementation of QMS!" (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=25336)

There are more excellent posts regarding this topic.

Please come back soon.

Stijloor.

This is very common problem i guess unless we are doing something tangible or involve ourselves in additional productive activities.

Hello Sysyphus, and welcome to the Cove :bigwave:

As it happens, nigh on all of us need to vent once in a while. I, for one, could use a good venting session right about now, but I am too tired... (groan) Anyway, when we are done venting we usually want to proceed to a discussion about how to handle the issue. Let's see what we can come up with. I Started on the factory floor but was given an opportunity after 15 years to become a QA inspector.Which is an absolutley great background for the job. Then , at least, you know the drill on the floor.

Now my old coworkers (some) see me as the enemy, the upper management sees me as the enemy. But I am supposed to make things better. I can only assume that this is par for the course. Is there any advice that anyone can give me??Yes, this is one of the things the Cove is pretty good for: The collective experience here is awsome. Perhaps if you could begin by describing your situation and the roadblocks in more detail?

Btw: When you say that (some) of your old coworkers see you as the enemy (I suppose that jealousy could play a part?), this also indicates that others do not. Being caught between a rock and a hard place, maybe you could try to concentrate more on your "allies", asking them for advice?

/Claes

As it happens, nigh on all of us need to vent once in a while. I, for one, could use a good venting session right about now, but I am too tired... (groan)

:topic: Claes, do you still ride that (mountain) bike? Go out and hit the trails. Get the cobwebs out of your head. It's so therapeutic. :D

Stijloor.

Sysyphus:

When I was in Quality Management (late 70s) working in a confrontational atmosphere, I felt exactly as you feel today. I was frustrated with a blood pressure in the stroke range and yet I was only in my early 30's.

As Stijloor stated, you MUST expend some physical energy to get rid of your frustration. I ended up playing tennis and within a couple of minute into a set, I forgot all about work. The mountain bike thought from Stijloor also works for me right now. I get on my bike and blast away. Problems seemed to be viewed in a different perspective after my ride.

To survive and make a positive contribution, do not get too confrontational. You may win many battles but lose the war and could be pegged as someone with an attitude. Get a quality cost system in your company if you can and then look at the results. Download the quality costs into various departments and then and only then, will your department become a contributing factor in reducing these costs rather than the opposing party.

I, and many others here share similar situations. As someone pointed out previously, it comes down to a hoice between deciding to expend the energy to try to change things, or bail out and look for something better. (Remember, better is relative)
Trying to change a company culture is like trying to push an idling locomotive.
It CAN be done, but it takes tremendous personal effort and it is very slow to get started. The plus side is that once you get it moving, it builds speed and momentum, and at some point fairly quickly, it can't be stopped.

Hey guys, obviously its late. I just got off (work).

I Started on the factory floor but was given an opportunity after 15 years to become a QA inspector. My meticulous nature was a factor as I had 2 errors since day one. I'm not bragging, its just that I am picky by nature.
A

Sysyphus, you are not alone. I was working on the factory floor also for 8 years and know every department that we have inside and out.
When you have been chosen to take over a large responsibility, you will always have to deal with the jealousy factor of your co-workers. I went thru the same thing. I heard every rumor possible after I took over the Quality Dept., from a major wage increase to Vacation benefits and other things. And really none of them happened. Then you get viewed as the Enemy oversudden, because now you sit in a Office and you are part of Managemant per say and all you do is just rat them out..lol. Took my co-workers a long time to realize that I am not there to make their job difficult nor that I am different, because I am still very activly involved on the Press floor and available to them when they need help with anything. So you have to keep working on it and eventually it will turn around.
As to Management, well I am in the same boat as you. Some days are good , some days I could rip my hair out. This week especially, and I really got offended by one of the V.P's when he told me that I could not read a Blue print properly, and since he had a College degree in Technical Drawing and Engineering, he is more qualified them me. The thing is I read the Blueprint correctly, it was Top Management that didn't. Next thing I knew I had a Technical Drawing book from his College days on my table, with a sticky note attached to it which pages I needed to read. And to think outside of the box. Wonder if I will get a quizz on this later. Oh and let's not forget , yesterday I couldn't use a Caliber Gage correctly. Wonder if there is a book on that too.
Today is Friday, let's see what else I am not doing correctly today. Possibly not breath the correct way? This is my rant for the week.

Hang in there, we all have to go thru it. Just keep coming back to the Cove, plenty of people here that been thru the same scenerios. :)

Well... let me give you a :applause: for picking a proper forum (no pun intended) for your frustration.

I think Claes has started a proper course of action on this by starting to kind of dissect your issue.

Now... I know you're frustrated, but why?

1. Who do you report to, and is this person part of the problem, or part of the solution?

2. Do you have a QMS in place?

3. How are sales/profits at your organization?

4. (just asking.. ) could it be that you are upset/having issues with one individual, and it is clouding your judgement?

Consider a fish bone diagram on this; not for your organization's benefit, but for you. What are the real problems here, and what are the root causes? Identify which causes can be remedied, and which will need to be lived with.

Yes, we do feel your pain. The first I have learned is to appropriately channel the frustration, and not let it dig at me personally. It's just a job; you're not in it for the love; you're in it for the money. Next, be sure of exactly what the problem is. Many times, I found that I am the root cause!:D

Claes, do you still ride that (mountain) bike? Go out and hit the trails. Get the cobwebs out of your head. It's so therapeutic. :D

Stijloor.Yes, that is part of the effort to stay sane: I use the bike instead of the car when I go to work.

/Claes

Welcome to our QA world. I bet most people here in the Cove can relate.

I am fortunate to have Sr. Mgmt on my side. That is what you need and the way to their minds is typically through money! You need to show them with diagrams, etc. of money lost/saved and how the money is lost/saved.

Wordy speeches, documents will lose their interest in what you have to say or show.

How about starting with presenting a game plan of how you want to improve things and the expected results within a specific time?

Just my :2cents:

Yes, that is part of the effort to stay sane: I use the bike instead of the car when I go to work.

/Claes

:applause: :applause: :applause:

We should do this in the USA more.....:yes:

Stijloor.

So much good input here. :applause:

Yes, I have been there too, at least in some form. The more you care, the more it hurts.

Since then, over a period of adventure and soul searching I realized a few of self evident truths.

1. The phrase "Can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" is true. People have limits based on their characters, company culture, history, and priorities. Understand their limits and you will be better poised to understand your limits.

2. Gains can be made, but you must learn to recognize them for what they are. Very often they are small gains, prone to backsliding, but a glimmer of light in someone's eye is progress because it shows that person is "in there" somewhere. Learn to count these glimmers as small victories, becuase a big victory won't be possible without them.

3. Very often there will be a resolution, though not ideal, outside of your making. In a set-in-their-ways family owned company, a generational turnover is often required to jerk them from a stall into motion. Understand that motion will probably be a neck-wrenching jerk, but that's how people very often behave. Be ready to adapt to it--hang on so you don't get bucked off, so to speak.

Yes, you are in very good company here. I will leave you with one more whisper in your ear: learn to define winning in a way that makes it possible to win. That means, be prepared to recognize progress for what it is: incremental steps toward the inevitable. If winning means bailing so as to preserve your integrity and self esteem, be ready to know when that is the right thing.

Good luck go with you. We are here for you.

It's just a job; you're not in it for the love; you're in it for the money.

Brad, surely you jest?:notme:

Thanks guys.
I honestly didn't expect this much as far as responses go. The fact that so many seem to understand makes me feel much less isolated. Just knowing that this is sorta normal allows me to focus on the task at hand instead of being defensive.
The company I work for is a family owned company but still a multi billion dollar business.
The problem seems to lie with consistency. Whether it be disciplinary or reward.
We have really good policies to help the operators produce quality parts, its just we cannot seem to get everyone to follow the rules.
My immediate supervisor and her supervisor are really helpful as is the whole QA staff. We just have the challenge of pointing out flaws in a "flawless" system.
Anyway, I'll be lurking and looking. Feel free to PM me with any ideas.
Have a wonderful day, Sys.

Just an odd thought here Sys - don't take it personal :)
You stated that:
My meticulous nature was a factor as I had 2 errors since day one. I'm not bragging, its just that I am picky by nature.

I have found it to be a real turn off for people not involved in QA/QC when we nitpick them about everything. Sometimes the system really isn't that perfect for the users and we spend time trying to enforce rules that have little or no relevance to the company or the users. If that is the case you may want to consider how to go about that.

The company I work for is a family owned company but still a multi billion dollar business.
The problem seems to lie with consistency. Whether it be disciplinary or reward.


Here is a nugget from a previous thread -
Originally Posted by hogheavenfarm

"Family run and owned companies can be impossible to deal with if they do not commit personally to a system."

Quote from JaneB.

"True of any company, really, family-run or owned or otherwise. That said, I now use 'family-owned & run' as a warning flag to look very carefully at, as they very often have people in key positions that they just couldn't & wouldn't get on their own merits, and aren't really competent for."

I have found this to be completely true, and will keep it in mind in the future.

Thanks guys.
I honestly didn't expect this much as far as responses go. The fact that so many seem to understand makes me feel much less isolated. Just knowing that this is sorta normal allows me to focus on the task at hand instead of being defensive.
The company I work for is a family owned company but still a multi billion dollar business.
The problem seems to lie with consistency. Whether it be disciplinary or reward.
We have really good policies to help the operators produce quality parts, its just we cannot seem to get everyone to follow the rules.
My immediate supervisor and her supervisor are really helpful as is the whole QA staff. We just have the challenge of pointing out flaws in a "flawless" system.
Anyway, I'll be lurking and looking. Feel free to PM me with any ideas.
Have a wonderful day, Sys.
When you write we cannot seem to get everyone to follow the rules., it begs the question, "WHY?" Almost always, folks making this statement have not really discovered the root cause. I suggest you read Jennifer's article and the comments in the thread entitled When Employees Don't Follow Procedures (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=12122) (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=12122) for a fresh way of looking at the situation.

Your comment, The company I work for is a family owned company but still a multi billion dollar business., raises an interesting factor folks must consider when accepting employment. As a former investment banker who dealt with a number of family owned and operated businesses attempting to convert to public companies or, more frequently, with succession issues when prospective heirs had no training or even interest in actually running the operation, I agree wholeheartedly with comments about red flag waving.

There are substantial advantages with some family owned and operated businesses because often they can afford to take a long view of the future course of business when they don't have to satisfy a fickle investor base demanding short-term profits at the expense of long term growth. Often, though, a problem arises when family members are placed on the payroll, but are essentially deadwood simply because they are not groomed to have what Deming refers to as a System of Profound Knowledge (SoPK) about the business - knowing the ins and outs of operations, supply chains, customers, research and development, competitors, regulators, etc. The prospective employee who is NOT part of the family needs to take a hard look at how the family members in the operation actually perform and how they are perceived by other workers. One of the techniques we used in due diligence research of family owned companies that were the target of acquisitions or mergers was to send our employees into the local businesses (taverns, diners, barbers, beauty shops, grocery stores, etc.) where workers of the target and their families shopped and did business to strike up conversations. Such "social engineering" produced a surprising amount of useful information about family members of the target's owners and their personalities and abilities.

Usually, though, by the time a family run operation gets past a critical size in terms of sales volume, and, more importantly, shows growth when the second or third generation of family members are in control, all the bad traits of family-owned businesses have been flushed away and the operation can offer steady, well-paying employment, but the route to the CEO's office is effectively blocked to ALL non-family folks.

I am working for a family owned Business, and you are correct Wes when you said, the road was blocked to all Non-Family workers.

Yesterday was one of those days, where I could have packed up my stuff and just left this job without looking back. I had a angry e-mail reply to one of the Owners ready to go, when I decided to go outside and take a few deep breaths before I would hit the Send button. Realizing that maybe this is not the way to go I deleted the reply, instead just replied to ackknowledging the e-mail and that I understood his Instructions perfectly. Then I composed an E-mail and send it to the President of the Company, asking for a meeting between him and me, but still have not gotten a reply from him. So the " Blood is thicker then Water" does hold thru. Just stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sorry had to vend. :(

Gert: You are right and I have made adjustments so as to not seem like I'm being nit picky. In all honesty, I'm much harder on myself and my superiors than the guys on the floor.

Wes: Its funny you mentioned that. I pulled down that .doc last night. I'm gonna send it to myself at work for further reading.

There are a lot of good things about the company being family owned. One is that the bosses have a lot more latitude when dealing with the workers personal issues.
As far as moving up, at this point I'm not at all interested. I tend to stick with a certain position for many years before looking upward. Plus I have no intention on going to school. Its not my cup o' tea. Hell, I barely made it outta high school.

Subject change
Last week we had a real screwup that I was a part of.
We had a new part which of course has to be inspected by QA at every step.
The man at the first process decided that this wasn't important so he produced half the order, leaving it for the following shift to finish. The guy on the following shift (same process) called me to check it. I measured it and signed off on it stating it was good. Bear in mind that the operators still have an in-process inspection on all orders.
The part then goes to the next step, where again another operator decided that the QA inspection wasn't needed. This is a big order so he wasn't able finish it.
The following day, a different operator getting ready to finish the order immediately noticed a huge problem with the part.
There were several holes that were out of place by an inch!
I was so concerned about perfection that I was only paying attention to measurements to the right of the decimal. A real bonehead move.
Well, when I first took this job, I was shocked to learn that we (QA) weren't held to the same disciplinary standards as the guys on the floor.

I have a real problem with people in authority being "above the law". Anyway there are several people who will receive disciplinary action for this screwup and I went to my boss and demanded that I receive the same treatment as the others. I'm hoping this action will gain a little trust from the guys on the floor. That wasn't my intention to start with, I really feel strongly about everyone sharing responsibility.

I am working for a family owned Business, and you are correct Wes when you said, the road was blocked to all Non-Family workers.

Yesterday was one of those days, where I could have packed up my stuff and just left this job without looking back. I had a angry e-mail reply to one of the Owners ready to go, when I decided to go outside and take a few deep breaths before I would hit the Send button. Realizing that maybe this is not the way to go I deleted the reply, instead just replied to ackknowledging the e-mail and that I understood his Instructions perfectly. Then I composed an E-mail and send it to the President of the Company, asking for a meeting between him and me, but still have not gotten a reply from him. So the " Blood is thicker then Water" does hold thru. Just stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sorry had to vend. :(When the conditions seem absolutely unbearable, but you are still getting and cashing paychecks is NEVER the time to blow off steam at the guy responsible for those checks. You did the right thing by allowing the heat to dissipate before sending an angry response.

We use a phrase in counseling and mentoring that is VERY difficult to understand for most folks - "View the situation dispassionately."
In its simplest interpretation, it just means to wait until you have your own emotions under control before saying or acting on your first impulse. An analogy I often draw is when a little kid (frustrated by his mom's refusal to get him a toy or allow him to stay up late or satisfy any other childish whim) hits his mom and shouts, "I hate you! I wish you were dead!"

Depending on the mom, the kid gets grounded, spanked, or ignored. None of which is the response the kid wanted in the first place. Similarly, bosses will respond to an outburst of emotion by firing (sometimes having employees arrested for assault), eliminating from raise and promotion tracks, or simply ignoring as one might a little kid who shouts, "I hate you!"

I'm pretty sure none of those responses was high on the disgruntled employee's list of desired outcomes.

.....
I have a real problem with people in authority being "above the law". Anyway there are several people who will receive disciplinary action for this screwup and I went to my boss and demanded that I receive the same treatment as the others. I'm hoping this action will gain a little trust from the guys on the floor. That wasn't my intention to start with, I really feel strongly about everyone sharing responsibility.

You have made some good points. I do wish to ask: Why does anyone need to be disciplined? Was there fraud or blatant disregard for procedures? Otherwise, is there something in the process that should be improved?

If you could improve the process so this does not happen again, you can possibly win with everybody!:D

Yes there is a procedure that ,if followed, would have increased the chance for the error being caught before time and material was wasted.
1.The programmer is supposed to verify all dimensions before handing out the program.
2.The first step operator is supposed to produce one part, stop production and call QA. This is stamped in bold black letters on the order. This particular operator has a history of this behavior and thats what I have issue with. He feels that he cant be bothered with such trivial matters.
I have come up with an idea that I will get into later. I gotta go to work.

Subject change
We had a new part which of course has to be inspected by QA at every step.

…Anyway there are several people who will receive disciplinary action for this screwup …

Yikes

QC inspectors and discipline for mistakes!

Sounds like a real old school culture to me - 1940s or worse

Compare to Toyota, there are no QC to check work, there is no punishment for errors, just a whole bunch of people making sure particular error can never happen again, by design and poka yoke.

Yikes

QC inspectors and discipline for mistakes!

Sounds like a real old school culture to me - 1940s or worse

Compare to Toyota, there are no QC to check work, there is no punishment for errors, just a whole bunch of people making sure particular error can never happen again, by design and poka yoke.

I Googled "poka yoka" and it looks interesting. Reducing errors without disciplinary action would be ideal. Tell me more.

I Googled "poka yoka" and it looks interesting. Reducing errors without disciplinary action would be ideal. Tell me more.Although many folks use the term "poka yoke," I am reliably informed by my Japanese colleagues that "poka yoke" is really derogatory usage in polite company - kind of like saying "idiot proofing."

One resource I often recommend for a good overview of the concept of "mistake proofing" [preferred term in polite company] is Professor Grout's page
http://csob.berry.edu/faculty/jgrout/pokayoke.shtml

I Googled "poka yoka" and it looks interesting. Reducing errors without disciplinary action would be ideal. Tell me more.

Now... I certainly don't mean to sound rude here.. but have you really found the root cause here? Most things can be fixed without disciplinary action. If you find out what happened, then fix it so it does not happen again. If you wish, start a new thread, formulate the circumstance and what happened, and I bet you'll get some pretty useful assistance.

Now, I am not a proponent of never disciplining anybody. I'm just suggesting human beings are very complex creatures, and there is a good chance that discipline about things like this will backfire. If these folks are already skittish about the quality system, I don't think getting disciplined will instantly generate appreciation.

I know you mentioned about employees just dismissing the procedures. But why? Are they not appropriate?

Now, as far as the one operator-why do they feel those steps are not important? Do they have a better option? Does everyone else follow the steps,and this one person is completely rebellious?

Here's my point-your organization just suffered a pretty sizeable bump due to a failed process. Either the current process is good, and people need some training, or the process needs to be revised. Either way, surely your management should be concerned about the process. If they aren't, I would document how much this process failure cost them; that will get their attention.

[quote=Wes Bucey;235020]Although many folks use the term "poka yoke," I am reliably informed by my Japanese colleagues that "poka yoke" is really derogatory usage in polite company - kind of like saying "idiot proofing."
One resource I often recommend for a good overview of the concept of "mistake proofing" [preferred term in polite company] is Professor Grout's page
http://csob.berry.edu/faculty/jgrout/pokayoke.shtml[/quote (http://csob.berry.edu/faculty/jgrout/pokayoke.shtml[/quote)]


Thanks Wes. This is a quote from Grouts awesome resource

http://www.mistakeproofing.com/Knowledge/knowledge.html (http://www.mistakeproofing.com/Knowledge/knowledge.html)

Baka/yoke <Boka?> is an early term, which was later replaced by poka-yoke. Baka/yoke is translated as fool-proofing. Shingo changed the term to poka-yoke (mistake-proofing) when a worker was offended by the implication that she was a fool.

I've heard boka = fool or idiot and that Poka = mistake

The story is that Shingo was looking at an operation and said we need to put a boka yoke here and the poor lady running the machine burst into tears at being called an idiot. He immediately changed to poka yoke.

I have no idea if this is true, or where I got it from, but I tell it as if it is gospel because it is such a great story.

I will ask our translator tomorrow about boka/poka. Japanese seems a very poetic and nuanced language, it will be interesting if it can be put across in English.

I Googled "poka yoka" and it looks interesting. Reducing errors without disciplinary action would be ideal. Tell me more.

Check out theory X and theory Y. Theory X says people are bad by nature and they need discipline. Theory Y says the opposite.

Check out the books about Doctor Deming. He says good people are defeated by bad systems. The worker is not to blame.

All <good> religions have something like the golden rule - "treat others as you would like to be treated"

I started my career in an old school foundry where the foreman were "kicking a$$ and taking names". They got back exactly what they put out.

I got lucky in a later job and had 9 great years in a total team environment, no foreman at all, no time clocks, no store rooms, supplies out on a cart where any one could take them.

We had one customer who got so mad he almost had a fit. He insisted that "we" couldn't put gloves out on a cart because people would steal them. The owner told him that there was very little problem with theft. The more we talked the madder he got. He was right in a way, it wouldn't work in his plant because of the way he treated his people. Worked fine for us.

For great reading on how to get great results without beating on people, try Tom Peters books, and if you really want to blow all traditional business concepts out of the water check out Ricardo Semler's book Maverick.

This is real radical stuff - beware - you can great branded as a lunatic or worse in a old school command and control company.

Wes has already pointed you to a great site showing examples of poka yoke. Good luck, have fun!