What are your thoughts on controlling competitors' documents?

Say you get your hands on some drawings or test standards or the like...

I say "No". They are not our documents. Even if they are controlled as third party documents they do not belong in the document system. Particularly if they have a legal disclaimer about unauthorized distribution, etc.

As an auditor what would you do if you spotted this?

Dang, Scott! - this sounds like the Formula 1 race team scandal from last year, when McLaren Cars got their hands on some Ferrari drawings........:mg:

Run away................:notme:

Dang, Scott! - this sounds like the Formula 1 race team scandal from last year, when McLaren Cars got their hands on some Ferrari drawings........:mg:

Run away................:notme:


I wonder if Bill Belichick put the Jets' plays into his document control system?

What are your thoughts on controlling competitors' documents?

Say you get your hands on some drawings or test standards or the like...

I say "No". They are not our documents. Even if they are controlled as third party documents they do not belong in the document system. Particularly if they have a legal disclaimer about unauthorized distribution, etc.

As an auditor what would you do if you spotted this?It depends on the document and on the reason the auditee has the document. Long ago I represented a company which manufactured a family of products for which it controlled 80% of the world market. There were several small competitors who manufactured some of the products which had fallen out of patent (generics.) The primary company published and widely distributed to anyone who asked for a copy a 150 page technical manual which described each product, including a completely dimensioned engineering drawing of each item. Included in the manual were application ideas (and more dimensioned engineering drawings) of how best to incorporate the product into an OEM design. It was common knowledge that the sales force for each competitor carried my client's technical manual in the sales kit because it was considered the industry "bible" - Our client considered it flattering and probably gained more business because of the exposure. Is the practice really much different than one auto dealer having the specs of a different brand to use as proof when comparing features of his brand with the competitor?

The legal question arises when the information is a trade secret of the competitor and has been obtained with subterfuge to gain an advantage over the competitor (an upstart soft drink company with a copy of Coke's secret formula would be an apt comparison versus buying the Coke and offering a blind taste test to potential purchasers as Pepsi once did.)

It depends on the document and on the reason the auditee has the document. Long ago I represented a company which manufactured a family of products for which it controlled 80% of the world market. There were several small competitors who manufactured some of the products which had fallen out of patent (generics.) The primary company published and widely distributed to anyone who asked for a copy a 150 page technical manual which described each product, including a completely dimensioned engineering drawing of each item. Included in the manual were application ideas (and more dimensioned engineering drawings) of how best to incorporate the product into an OEM design. It was common knowledge that the sales force for each competitor carried my client's technical manual in the sales kit because it was considered the industry "bible" - Our client considered it flattering and probably gained more business because of the exposure. Is the practice really much different than one auto dealer having the specs of a different brand to use as proof when comparing features of his brand with the competitor?

The legal question arises when the information is a trade secret of the competitor and has been obtained with subterfuge to gain an advantage over the competitor (an upstart soft drink company with a copy of Coke's secret formula would be an apt comparison versus buying the Coke and offering a blind taste test to potential purchasers as Pepsi once did.)


I'm not questioning that the company possesses competitors' documents... everyone does. It's part of doing business. I expect a company I work at to at least have the competitors' catalogs and such.

I'm questioning putting them in the document management system.

Most 'fast moving consumer goods' organizations would have a 'market intelligence system' and such informations are very important and confidential where only the privilege few can have access.

It would be crazy to have such highly confidential information within the document control/management system.

What are your thoughts on controlling competitors' documents?

Say you get your hands on some drawings or test standards or the like...

I say "No". They are not our documents. Even if they are controlled as third party documents they do not belong in the document system. Particularly if they have a legal disclaimer about unauthorized distribution, etc.

As an auditor what would you do if you spotted this?

Do you use these documents as reference on a regular basis? Or are the things you peak at once in a while? If you use them on a regular basis, I don´t see much difference in the control you should have for these documents and the control you should have on other external docments (that are within your control system).

As an auditor I would only mention / comment / point out / write up if I saw a consistant use of such documents in any of your processes and not being part of your doc control system.

Do you use these documents as reference on a regular basis? Or are the things you peak at once in a while? If you use them on a regular basis, I don´t see much difference in the control you should have for these documents and the control you should have on other external docments (that are within your control system).

As an auditor I would only mention / comment / point out / write up if I saw a consistant use of such documents in any of your processes and not being part of your doc control system.


Whether you peek at them or not, they are not part of YOUR quality system, are they? External docs like specs and customer docs ARE part of your system. That is why they have to be controlled, to make sure the information is accurate. Competitors docs would rarely actually be part of your system.

Scott, have someone contact Pepsi-Cola and Coca-Cola and ask them their opinion on the subject?

Also see if they can contact the lady serving prison time and solicit her opinion as well.

Scott, have someone contact Pepsi-Cola and Coca-Cola and ask them their opinion on the subject?

Also see if they can contact the lady serving prison time and solicit her opinion as well.As I said - it depends on the document and the use to which it is put. Certainly, EVERYONE involved in the COKE thing knew the documents in question were COKE trade secrets. (If I were a Pepsi guy, I would have been afraid I was being entrapped in some sort of a sting.)

In the case of the technical manual I described above - the manual was widely published and distributed - about 25,000 copies a year for at least ten years I was associated with the client.

Before we speculate further, let's find out WHY these competitor documents are in hand and to what purpose.

I agree with everyone that these are "probably" not anything to be put into a Controlled Document system, but might be kept as reference material . I am aware of dozens of organizations that have copies of the Quality Manuals of customers, suppliers, and competitors which have been used as reference material in creating their own Quality Manual. Certainly, some organizations might have need to include customer and supplier Quality Manuals in their controlled document system, but I really can't think of a good reason to put a competitor's manual in the system. IF, however, an organization makes one-off copies of products which are no longer produced by a competitor, then the original design and production documents might be crucial to its controlled document system. This happens frequently in the aerospace field for replacement parts for aging aircraft.

Scott, I'll retract my rudeness and provide some other comments.

If you guys came by them legally, and if you guys use them legally, and if they must be used to support your activities within your MS, then they would be nothing more than documents of external origion and subject to control requirements.

Scott, I'll retract my rudeness and provide some other comments.

If you guys came by them legally, and if you guys use them legally, and if they must be used to support your activities within your MS, then they would be nothing more than documents of external origion and subject to control requirements.

Rudeness? From you? Never, Randy.

There was nothing overtly illegal about the obtaining of the documents.
Some came from customers saying "can you make a part that will replace this", some came from employees that used to work for competetors, etc. Pretty normal channels.

Actually, in interesting question. My response would be "it depends".

Competitors information could range from a simple brochure, to top secret stuff obtained legally, to stuff that you probably should not have.

I have a friend who is a chemist. He has companies hand him a certain plastic, and he tells them what the composition is. Don't ask; don't tell. Please... are we suggesting this doesn't go on all the time??

And after paying handsomely for this information, is it smart for the company to not control that information?

Too, many companies test competitor products against their own. They then make statements regarding how they compare. I would again think it smart business to control the samples/information relating to those tests.

Yes, I think there are instances where competitors information should be controlled.

...There was nothing overtly illegal about the obtaining of the documents.

Some came from customers saying "can you make a part that will replace this", some came from employees that used to work for competetors, etc. Pretty normal channels.

Those types generally would be feeder information for your own documents, and would not end up being controlled docs in your own system.

What are your thoughts on controlling competitors' documents?

Say you get your hands on some drawings or test standards or the like...

I say "No". They are not our documents. Even if they are controlled as third party documents they do not belong in the document system. Particularly if they have a legal disclaimer about unauthorized distribution, etc.

As an auditor what would you do if you spotted this?

Is there a need for users of the documents to know that they're using the current version/edition?
When new editions are available, is it important to replace the old ones, and remove the old ones from points of use?
Do you have a need to be able to reference a master list or other such bibliography in order to find out about the status of the documents (location, current version, etc.)?

All are rhetorical questions; you should control that for which a good reason for control exists.

Rudeness? From you? Never, Randy.

There was nothing overtly illegal about the obtaining of the documents.
Some came from customers saying "can you make a part that will replace this", some came from employees that used to work for competetors, etc. Pretty normal channels.

You've supplied the answer....they are used to help achieve product conformity and customer satisfaction.

You've supplied the answer....they are used to help achieve product conformity and customer satisfaction.


I'm not buying that entirely...
If they came from the customer they might be used in the design process just as much as a hand sketch might, but not referenced anywhere after that point. When we get back to the customer we get back with our own drawing because we don't copy the competitors part.

In most cases the customer says we need a part that does this and fits here, usually without a competing part drawing or drawing. Handing us an existing drawing is simply a means of shortening that communication process.

We sell our parts. We don't put in our literature that our part X is a drop in replacement or a generic for competitor part Y.

Too, many companies test competitor products against their own. They then make statements regarding how they compare. I would again think it smart business to control the samples/information relating to those tests.

Yes, I think there are instances where competitors information should be controlled.

I agree they should be controlled but not sure if the QS is the right place, you my well want to keep the information/testing results but purely for defence reasons if you end up in a litigation (not sure if that is right word) battle. In other words controlled for legal reasons by the legal department/company lawyer, not for quality. The quality side of this would be in the verification and validation, that demonstrate your product performed to set requirements.

:2cents: