Hi friends,
This is infact my first post on the message board. We, at our organization, are certified to ISO 9001:2000, ISO 14001:2004 and OHSAS 18001:1999, and integrated all 3 of them to form the Q-SHE ( Quality, Saftey, Health and environmental ) Management system. Now one requirement of all the 3 standards is to conduct management review at defined intervals to review the status of progress of the three systems. What I'd like to know is how can I design the management review meeting wherein all the requirements of all the 3 standards are reviewed and documented.
Please note that the management reviews are conducted every six months, but practically I am finding it very difficult to cover each clause of all the 3 standards in 1 meeting of top management.

So kindly advise

Regards
Lakshit

Review of the the clauses of the standards is not a requirement for management review and probably wasted time.

All that has to go into the the management review are the "Inputs" from ISO 9001-5.6.2;ISO 14001-4.6 and OHSAS 18001-4.6. Nothing more and nothing less.

If someone tells you different they're full of rubbish.

But the TUV auditor who conducted the certification audit asked for all clauses to be covered in the management review, as an assessment of the complete system. That's why the problem arose. Otherwise things had been going fine earlier, when BSI used to audit us

But the TUV auditor who conducted the certification audit asked for all clauses to be covered in the management review, as an assessment of the complete system. That's why the problem arose. Otherwise things had been going fine earlier, when BSI used to audit us

Randy is right. There is no requirement to cover each clause in management review. Your auditor is missing the point. Point him at the Cove! :lol:

But the TUV auditor who conducted the certification audit asked for all clauses to be covered in the management review, as an assessment of the complete system. That's why the problem arose. Otherwise things had been going fine earlier, when BSI used to audit us


Your TUV auditor is totally wrong, and absolutely incorrect and I publically say so.

Your internal audit must show that all applicable requirements have been assessed and have been effectively implemented. All that is required of management is to review the results of the audit, the performance of your system and make decisions based on what those results are.

Maybe you should have stayed with BSI;)

This monday I audited an organization. They showed the management review meeting. I noticed was they do for the meeeting is 1. Prepare powerpoint presentation, 2. minutes of the meeting.
From presentation it is shown that certain points are addressed like audits or corrective preventive actions but from minutes it could not be seen that anything has been discussed.

This monday I audited an organization. They showed the management review meeting. I noticed was they do for the meeeting is 1. Prepare powerpoint presentation, 2. minutes of the meeting.
From presentation it is shown that certain points are addressed like audits or corrective preventive actions but from minutes it could not be seen that anything has been discussed.
Do you think this is a problem?

What did the management rep say about it?

Maybe they handle the outputs on an exception basis, so that comments would only appear in the minutes if action were required.

But what's the problem if they are addressing the issues and taking decisions by means of a powerpoint presentations. Even we are following the same procedure and it really works.

Lakshit

First to get the first topic out of the way, listen to Randy, he's right, if your auditor thinks otherwise, ask him to point out where his requirement came from.

second, about the powerpoint management review. The important part of management review imho...is not how the review is presented, but the output of the meeting. If the output is that the system is working and doesn't need to be fixed, so be it. (although in that case, it would be nice to see some actions items for preventive measures, instead of corrections to the system) Show that some sort of decisions were made for each of the management review requirements. Fix it, leave it be, tweak it. It doesn't matter if the review was by telephone, fax, powerpoint, or a novela. What was the outcome?

Thanks guys for the inputs. One thing more, we use the following format for documenting the minutes of management review meeting. The agenda covers all the input requirements of management review, I presume. So if you guys can just go through it and offer a piece of advise!!!!!!!!

Thanks guys for the inputs. One thing more, we use the following format for documenting the minutes of management review meeting. The agenda covers all the input requirements of management review, I presume. So if you guys can just go through it and offer a piece of advise!!!!!!!!


Whoaaaa! Your agenda covers the inputs to management review? Is this what you originally meant to say about covering the clauses? If so, there is nothing wrong with what your auditor said.

Whoaaaa! Your agenda covers the inputs to management review? Is this what you originally meant to say about covering the clauses? If so, there is nothing wrong with what your auditor said.

Your Whoaaa! should have been MUCH larger:agree1:

This monday I audited an organization. They showed the management review meeting. I noticed was they do for the meeeting is 1. Prepare powerpoint presentation, 2. minutes of the meeting.
From presentation it is shown that certain points are addressed like audits or corrective preventive actions but from minutes it could not be seen that anything has been discussed.


There is no requirement to record every discussion item. There are ways to determine the depth of discussion and review. Interview people who particpated in the meeting. Look at notes, records, minutes. Action items, assignments, projects...

Your TUV auditor is totally wrong, and absolutely incorrect and I publically say so.

Your internal audit must show that all applicable requirements have been assessed and have been effectively implemented. All that is required of management is to review the results of the audit, the performance of your system and make decisions based on what those results are.

Maybe you should have stayed with BSI;)


...and the other inputs stated in the standards. But, Randy is right. Clauses do not have to be covered. However, note, some standards require that the procedures be reviewed periodically, and these would relate to some of the clauses. But, even those do not have to be reviewed in the Management Meeting. What a boring meeting that would be...

You should have stayed with BSI. There's no reason (or requirement) to address each clause.

As for ISO 9001, 14001 and OHSAS 18001, they are quite compatible, and a joint Management Review isn't too difficult.

In a corporate role (my previous life), we'd develop an agenda addressing all three standards, have a sign-in log for the meeting attendees, and afterwards prepare a formal report (minutes) of what we discussed.

Any information provided durig this review (including statistics and/or powerpoint) we'd attached to the minutes.

We never had any problems with this approach, and had a multi-site certificate for more than 20 locations.

Hope this helps,

Mark

Hi friends,
This is infact my first post on the message board. We, at our organization, are certified to ISO 9001:2000, ISO 14001:2004 and OHSAS 18001:1999, and integrated all 3 of them to form the Q-SHE ( Quality, Saftey, Health and environmental ) Management system. Now one requirement of all the 3 standards is to conduct management review at defined intervals to review the status of progress of the three systems. What I'd like to know is how can I design the management review meeting wherein all the requirements of all the 3 standards are reviewed and documented.
Please note that the management reviews are conducted every six months, but practically I am finding it very difficult to cover each clause of all the 3 standards in 1 meeting of top management.

So kindly advise

Regards
Lakshit


Hi Lakshit,

I concur with earlier posts that you don't need to attempt to review all the clauses (that's the element approach). You have to review the Processes.

Perhaps this might help:

I'm not suggesting that you should even be expected to cover 50% of your System Review in 1 meeting, but I think that the 1st step to efficient Management Review Meetings is in the design of your Procedural Flowcharts. If you have integrated all standards into one system, then when you audit, you are auditing all 3 simultaneously, hence the review should be a consolidated one.

If you look at the attached Flow Chart for Internal Auditing, you see that the requirements of 3 standards are integrated as you described in your organization (ISO/TS, ISO 14001 and Customer-specific requirements). The attachment shows the associated requirements segregated in yellow (TS), green (14001) and red boxes (CSR). This is not a requirement, of course, but it's a tremendous help to your internal auditors and can help them to prepare appropriate audit questions.

When you conduct audits of this integrated system, you audit each step in sequence per the flow chart (process approach), and in doing so, you will have audited all 3 sets of requirements.

The concern that I have with your remarks is that a formal Management Review is only conducted twice annually. Isn't it a bit late to be reacting to the findings of audits and process performance 6 months after their occurrence? If Management is just doing it to fulfil a minimum requirements, they aren't likely being effective or efficient. Your task is being treated as if it's just perfunctory by Management.

Of course, your job of presenting 6 months of audit findings, as well as process performance results at a single meeting, is unrealistic. Management has an obligation to "determine and provide the resources needed to implement and maintain the quality management system and continually improve its effectiveness" (per clause 6.1.a). I think that includes providing adequate time to effectively and efficiently meet this requirement.

It's not likely that your organization will reap the benefits intended by these Standards. They are treating it more like it's an unpleasant obligation to be fulfilled as infrequently as possible.

Perhaps you could solicit the support of your External Auditor to gently prod Management toward a more pro-active approach. They should conduct monthly meetings which are shorter, and which allow them to focus, and respond to your findings in a timely manner.

Good Luck!
Patricia Ravanello

<snip>
The concern that I have with your remarks is that a formal Management Review is only conducted twice annually. Isn't it a bit late to be reacting to the findings of audits and process performance 6 months after their occurrence?

The standard allows organizations to determine the management review interval for a reason. There's nothing wrong with this interval, in and of itself. We need to know a lot more about how the organization operates before offering criticism.

If there's an issue that truly needs top management involvement, it's wrong to wait for a regularly scheduled meeting to tell them about it. If you need help, ask for it when you need it, not at the next meeting.

If management truly doesn't care, trying to make them sit through monthly meeting isn't very likely to improve matters.

If Management is just doing it to fulfil a minimum requirements, they aren't likely being effective or efficient. Your task is being treated as if it's just perfunctory by Management.
No evidence to support this conclusion.

Of course, your job of presenting 6 months of audit findings, as well as process performance results at a single meeting, is unrealistic.
Summary, anyone?

I would claim that an effective management rep has been getting his or her top management involved as necessary all along. Along with that, an effective management rep doesn't burden his management team with unnecessary details.
Management has an obligation to "determine and provide the resources needed to implement and maintain the quality management system and continually improve its effectiveness" (per clause 6.1.a). I think that includes providing adequate time to effectively and efficiently meet this requirement.
No evidence provided to show they aren't.

It's not likely that your organization will reap the benefits intended by these Standards. They are treating it more like it's an unpleasant obligation to be fulfilled as infrequently as possible.
Unwarranted conclusion.

Perhaps you could solicit the support of your External Auditor to gently prod Management toward a more pro-active approach. They should conduct monthly meetings which are shorter, and which allow them to focus, and respond to your findings in a timely manner.
Not good advice.

First, we don't know that the management review interval is causing a problem.

Second, it's not a good idea to use the CB auditor as a shill for your ideas. If the management team even suspects that such things are going on, it will damage the credibility of the audit program.

Third, an experienced CB auditor will have seen organizations that do just fine with a six month management review interval.

The standard allows organizations to determine the management review interval for a reason. There's nothing wrong with this interval, in and of itself. We need to know a lot more about how the organization operates before offering criticism....

...Third, an experienced CB auditor will have seen organizations that do just fine with a six month management review interval.

Hi Cliff,

Thanks for pointing out the tenability of my comments. Your points are valid. However, I think that the incongruence of our perspectives revolves around the definition of Management Review.

I am assuming that Management Review of the Management Operating System includes Performance Metrics (as well as Audit results...internal and external, etc.). I admit I am digressing from Lakshit's issue of reviewing all the "elements" of the 3 standards in question, which I think has been admirably addressed in this thread. Instead, I focused my comments on my concern for the infrequency of documented Management Reviews and their likely impact (maybe this should be another Thread).

Obviously, neither of us have evidence of the impact of infrequent Management Reviews on "Lakshit's organization". My comments were clearly made based on assumptions regarding the likely impact of infrequent reviews of "compromised scope" due to lack of time. You're right, I don't have evidence in this case. I only have the evidence of my personal experience and observations of similar scenarios in other organizaions.

To be able to offer an effective "corrective action", we need to do an appropriate "Root Cause"...starting with the Problem definition.

I was trying to offer a solution to a difficult problem that many Management Reps face...a lack of "engagement" by Senior Management. The "System" does not belong to the Management Rep, it belongs to Senior Management. It is their tool for managing the organization. If they only want to "look at the gauges on their Organizational Dashboard" twice a year...that's great...if it works for them. If they want to "fine tune" performance, I think that the answer is in frequency of review. I think the success of a company with infrequent reviews is more "serendipitous" than "planned".

Clearly Lakshit is having a problem with it. The support of the CB in this regard can be very effective, if warranted.

What solution would you offer to the problem of not being able to cover the agenda (assuming that it is the right agenda, and not just " a review of all the standard elements)?

Regards.
Patricia Ravanello

I was trying to offer a solution to a difficult problem that many Management Reps face...a lack of "engagement" by Senior Management.

We're quick to bemoan the lack of interest on the part of management. I wish we were as quick to examine our own contribution to it. How much time was spent before the meeting distilling the issues down to the significant few? How much editorial time was spent ensuring that the bullet points were succinct, clear and stated in terms important to senior management?

If they want to "fine tune" performance, I think that the answer is in frequency of review. I think the success of a company with infrequent reviews is more "serendipitous" than "planned". Too many assumptions here. Different circumstances require different actions.

Clearly Lakshit is having a problem with it. The support of the CB in this regard can be very effective, if warranted.
If warranted. Big if, that.
Right way: "I'm concerned about the effectiveness of our management reviews. I would like to focus on that during this audit."
Wrong way: "I think we need to have management reviews more often. Can you help me convince my management team?"

What solution would you offer to the problem of not being able to cover the agenda (assuming that it is the right agenda, and not just " a review of all the standard elements)?


Regards.
Patricia RavanelloFair challenge. How about this:

Make sure the problem isn't you.
Take a class or read a book on making an effective presentation. Find a way to hone your skills.
Set an expectation that the management review will be a status meeting, not a decision making session or problem solving session.
Don't dwell on things that are going okay, as shown by their measurements.
Report on problem areas. Give enough information so the executive understands the problem, then quit. Be fair; give both sides of the issue. Review the issue with the other side before the meeting; no surprises. If you treat issues unfairly in these meetings, you are only cutting yourself off at the knees.
For problems you report, get a problem-solving or decision-making session set up with a report back due in two to three weeks. If the executive disagrees, you fought the good fight and lost. If the executive agrees drive the sessions. If the other players won't play, turn their sorry selves in.

We're quick to bemoan the lack of interest on the part of ...

Fair challenge. How about this:

Make sure the problem isn't you.
Take a class or read a book on making an effective presentation. Find a way to hone your skills.
Set an expectation that the management review will be a status meeting, not a decision making session or problem solving session.
Don't dwell on things that are going okay, as shown by their measurements.
Report on problem areas. Give enough information so the executive understands the problem, then quit. Be fair; give both sides of the issue. Review the issue with the other side before the meeting; no surprises. If you treat issues unfairly in these meetings, you are only cutting yourself off at the knees.
For problems you report, get a problem-solving or decision-making session set up with a report back due in two to three weeks. If the executive disagrees, you fought the good fight and lost. If the executive agrees drive the sessions. If the other players won't play, turn their sorry selves in.

Alas my dear Cliff, it seems that you too have succumbed to the same malady that you found so objectionable in me...that of making assumptions...

I don't know why I feel that you have taken an adversarial stance toward me, nonetheless, it appears to me that your input (above) is based on the presupposition that these activites are not already being implemented.

I don't care to get into a proverbial pissing match with you...I was only trying to offer another perspective that hadn't already been discussed. I think your suggestions offer a viable metholology to adopt...of course that's assuming that they're not already being implemented in Lakshit's organization.

Regards,
Patricia

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooo, what she said!:cool:

You're OK Patricia, welcome to the club:lol:

Hi friends,
This is infact my first post on the message board. We, at our organization, are certified to ISO 9001:2000, ISO 14001:2004 and OHSAS 18001:1999, and integrated all 3 of them to form the Q-SHE ( Quality, Saftey, Health and environmental ) Management system. Now one requirement of all the 3 standards is to conduct management review at defined intervals to review the status of progress of the three systems. What I'd like to know is how can I design the management review meeting wherein all the requirements of all the 3 standards are reviewed and documented.
Please note that the management reviews are conducted every six months, but practically I am finding it very difficult to cover each clause of all the 3 standards in 1 meeting of top management.

So kindly advise

Regards
Lakshit


hiiiii


when it comes to MRM the only need is to cover the i/p's like process perf., c.satisfaction. the advise given to u is perfect by others. u can urself assess the reqt. in 5.6.2 there is no provision & reqmt. to cover all phases at a single time.simply make sure i/ps now P,Q,S,D,C,M,E are covered

hiiiii


when it comes to MRM the only need is to cover the i/p's like process perf., c.satisfaction. the advise given to u is perfect by others. u can urself assess the reqt. in 5.6.2 there is no provision & reqmt. to cover all phases at a single time.simply make sure i/ps now P,Q,S,D,C,M,E are covered

Sorry Ashwani,

That one went completely over my head.

Sorry Ashwani,

That one went completely over my head.

sorry

i mean to say that consider inputs reqd. for MRM only . there is no need to review all procedures or anything else.

since now its IMS so inputs will be

1. ts + EMS+OHSAS

i.e in terms of quality, cost ,delivery, productivity, safety, morale, & environment

sorry

i mean to say that consider inputs reqd. for MRM only . there is no need to review all procedures or anything else.

since now its IMS so inputs will be

1. ts + EMS+OHSAS

i.e in terms of quality, cost ,delivery, productivity, safety, morale, & environment

And your personal experience with this is?

Dear Lakshit,

It is not mandatory to cover each and every clause of the standards in the management review. Only the inputs and the outputs of the Management review sections are enough. We are certified by TUV Rheinland and they have never raised such a question. Which company are u representing? I am the MR of a solar based company near delhi (india).


Regards
Aditya Singh.:agree:

Thanks to all nice discussion & very usefull for us because we are also going to get the 14001 with our existing 9001:2000.

:2cents:
…if your present MRM is not enough to cover your integrated management system consisting of ISO9001, ISO14001 & OHSAS18001 – then distribute them into 2 or 3 strategic meetings… even it’ll meant that each meeting will become short, as long as it is effective, then the standards is working for you…

…my previous company did this - since covering the 3 standards required MRM inputs is really time consuming and ineffective in a way that most crucial issues were being ignore (specifically the one needed by immediate actions on a timely manner)… so what we initially did, we conducted 3 separate meetings to discuss each standard… then, when we are already streaming the line with these standards, we reduce our meetings to 2 – combining all of them into 2 sessions… and before I left that company, we are doing 1 meeting (every 6 months) covering the requirements of the 3 standards…

…my point is, start with the one that is going to give you an effective results… then do continually improvement… after all, that is ISO all about…

:2cents:
…if your present MRM is not enough to cover your integrated management system consisting of ISO9001, ISO14001 & OHSAS18001 – then distribute them into 2 or 3 strategic meetings… even it’ll meant that each meeting will become short, as long as it is effective, then the standards is working for you…

…my previous company did this - since covering the 3 standards required MRM inputs is really time consuming and ineffective in a way that most crucial issues were being ignore (specifically the one needed by immediate actions on a timely manner)… so what we initially did, we conducted 3 separate meetings to discuss each standard… then, when we are already streaming the line with these standards, we reduce our meetings to 2 – combining all of them into 2 sessions… and before I left that company, we are doing 1 meeting (every 6 months) covering the requirements of the 3 standards…

…my point is, start with the one that is going to give you an effective results… then do continually improvement… after all, that is ISO all about…

I'm not quite sure what the great aversion to Management Review is...is it because you have to keep records??? :nopity:

Let's be realistic...Here's what ISO is really all about. You define a Policy, you set a plan/objectives, you implement it, you audit, monitor and measure your performance to plan..then you react to your findings...Sorry, but once every 6 months just doesn't cut it...and I'm sure that's not what you're doing.

Performance metrics are monitored with varying frequencies, some hourly, some daily, some weekly, some monthly...you get the drill. Management doesn't wait 6 months to respond. If they do, it's usually to late.

Every time Management sits to review and react to performance, it's a Management Review. It could be an individual's performance review, Departmental, Program/Project Review, Divisional Review, Corporate Review. Each company has multiple review levels. Each Review venue has different subjects/topics/metrics...sometimes subjects are reviewed at more than one level (Ex. Production numbers are reviewed by Production Managers in their Production Meetings, maybe daily...and typically, also by Senior Management, possibly weekly).

It seems people spend more time and energy trying to do a kabuki dance around this requirement than just doing it...and reaping the benefits (of course, IMHO).

Patricia

…we are not actually against records… but more concerned on topics (areas) that were not given proper attention because of the “huge” covered of combining these 3 standards… and the company has initially adopted the integrated management system – wherein, issues are “everywhere” (the thing that is normally experience by an organization implementing the standards on the first time)… and we are speaking of ISO9001:2000, ISO14001:2004 and OHSAS18001:1999 (still “1999” during that time)…

...my point is, you have to establish something that is workable for your organization... then starts improving it... rather than trying to be perfect (or ideal) at start...

…we are not actually against records...

...my point is, you have to establish something that is workable for your organization... then starts improving it... rather than trying to be perfect (or ideal) at start...


My point is...two meetings a year aren't enough...that's barely lip service to the standard.

Patricia

Hi friends,
This is infact my first post on the message board. We, at our organization, are certified to ISO 9001:2000, ISO 14001:2004 and OHSAS 18001:1999, and integrated all 3 of them to form the Q-SHE ( Quality, Saftey, Health and environmental ) Management system. Now one requirement of all the 3 standards is to conduct management review at defined intervals to review the status of progress of the three systems. What I'd like to know is how can I design the management review meeting wherein all the requirements of all the 3 standards are reviewed and documented.
Please note that the management reviews are conducted every six months, but practically I am finding it very difficult to cover each clause of all the 3 standards in 1 meeting of top management.

So kindly advise

Regards
Lakshit

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Hi Lakshit, I read your thread and I can be sure you can help me, my company is going to get integrated like yours and I am stuck on master list of required documents of ISO 14001 & OSHAH 18001. Could you help me?
Thanks & best regards.
Nhan.

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Hi Lakshit, I read your thread and I can be sure you can help me, my company is going to get integrated like yours and I am stuck on master list of required documents of ISO 14001 & OSHAH 18001. Could you help me?
Thanks & best regards.
Nhan.

Pending any reply from Lakshit, you can have a look at a few samples of combine EH&S manuals here (http://elsmar.com/Forums/fileslist.php?mode=allfiles&sortby=filename&pageamt=2&criteria=manual)(look for EH&S or combine 14k & 18K).

If you are interested in a combined gap-analysis checklist, here's a good one (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=239843&postcount=1).

----------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Lakshit, I read your thread and I can be sure you can help me, my company is going to get integrated like yours and I am stuck on master list of required documents of ISO 14001 & OSHAH 18001. Could you help me?
Thanks & best regards.
Nhan.

Focus on making a list of documents that you need to run your company. Read the standards so you understand them. When you put that together, it will be easy to make a list. Most of the requirements are the same.

Focus on 4.4.4 in each of the standards! The minimum required documents are listed there.

It doesn't get any more simple than that.

How about combining ISO 9001 as well ISO 17020: 1998 in a single Management review meeting?
Do I have to add anything in the ISO 9001 agenda?
:thanks:

How about combining ISO 9001 as well ISO 17020: 1998 in a single Management review meeting?
Do I have to add anything in the ISO 9001 agenda?
:thanks:

Compare the two standards and develop a common management review agenda. Smart decision.

Stijloor.

I have just been assigned the task of looking into combining a procedure to handle management review for our QMS (already certified) and our new EMS (currently being developed). It seems the intention will be to handle both reviews as one, at the same time.

From reading the two Standards, and picking out the requirements I have come up with a basic structure as follows: -

Top Management are to review QMS/EMS periodically to assess suitability etc by looking at:


Previous meeting's outcomes and suggestions for change
Any external Communications received (eg. praise, complaints)
Review of audits, their outcomes, and any preventive and corrective actions that stemmed from the NCs. If necessary, NC trends that may have formed.
Company performance measured against it's own objectives and targets (aspects and impacts, legislation, QMS system based on Quality Policy)
Ideas for improvement or change
From the review of the above it should result in improvements or changes to the QMS/EMS (amended policy, aspects, obj & targets etc), improvement of service given to customer (service=product for us), and a new appreciation of what resources are needed.

I can understand how this applies to all Standards, and how I can design a form for each topic to effectively reduce the number of tangents in one meeting - but we will have a lot to get through, reviewing environmental AND quality audits for example, that I am unsure if both can be covered in one meeting (which is a must by our company). I think i will be booking in the key members of the top management for a day in a meeting room.