Let's say I make pies (I know it's not automotive).. I make pies, I bake them in a rolling hearth oven, single stacked... but I can have more throughput if I bake them double-stacked. I did some oven surveys and they turned out okay. So I start baking them double-stacked.. My customer says I have to inform them (for their permission) to change any process.. is this a process change?

Let's say I make pies (I know it's not automotive).. I make pies, I bake them in a rolling hearth oven, single stacked... but I can have more throughput if I bake them double-stacked. I did some oven surveys and they turned out okay. So I start baking them double-stacked.. My customer says I have to inform them (for their permission) to change any process.. is this a process change?

There's a lot more we need (knead) to know about your pie story, Jim! And I don't mean what's inside the pies..........??

Did the customer contractually require you to inform them? Did they require you to do some kind of Process Validation? (you can read PPAP - Production Pie Approval Process) or some other Process Walk through?

Are you testing to ensure that stacking pies doesn't lead to product defects? Soggy pastry? If you have data (the evidence was eaten I suppose) to show the stacking caused no effect on pie quality.

How would your customer know you changed the process. C'mon, there's something fishy about this pie story...........

Section #3 Customer Notification and Submission Requirements.
Table 3.1 Item (7) states: Any changes including changes at the suppliers to the org. and their suppliers that affect customer requirements e.g. fit,form, function, performance, or durability:

If it does not meet one of these issues then you don't have to notify anyone.

If I was your Customer I woudl say it's a process change. I consider it a process chagne in my company that requires verification (the change had the intended effect) and validation (the change did no harm; no unintended consequences).

I understand that many suppliers feel this "notify me first" clauses are inconvenient and even a bit insulting (as if you were so reckless as to make changes willy-nilly without regard to the consequences). However, I have seen far too many "little changes" that are well intentioned crash production lines and/or cause serious field failures...

Usually a simple easy test is all that is required to ensure that you get the result you wanted adn you didnt' hurt anything. and this isn't confined to the automotive world or aerospace or medical or simple consumer industries...

Thanks ya'll, I was just wondering if everyone considered this a process change... and yes it did affect the customer. The pie on top of the stack did not get baked thoroughly.... what is kind of hard to figure out is how to test this.. because I have so many different pies and they all have a different mass. So maybe all double stacked lemon pies may get baked, but if I have a few double-stacked pumpkin pies (more mass) in there, the pumpkin doesn't get done.

How can I possible verify all scenarios that I might bake?.. (answering my own question here) Maybe I should bake an oven full of my highest mass pies double stacked, and adjust my oven from there. (worst case scenario) ??

You need a process change if it affects the customer requirements and if the customer specifies that you need to inform them in whatsoever changes you've made in the process.

But I think in this case, its more of an improvement in the process (double stacking), it could mean more output, lower production cost. I guess the customer needs some price discount in return.:D

In my next life, my job will have more suppliers than customers.. It's so nice, sometimes, to be the customer.

It always seems weird that I'm, ultimately, a customer of my customer... they should supply me with a PPAP, process studies, PROCESS CHANGES.. etc... because they can mess up my pies way worse than I can.

Obviously your customer thinks so.
I would also call it a process change in my business.

In my next life, my job will have more suppliers than customers.. It's so nice, sometimes, to be the customer.

It always seems weird that I'm, ultimately, a customer of my customer... they should supply me with a PPAP, process studies, PROCESS CHANGES.. etc... because they can mess up my pies way worse than I can.

not sure how to comment on this. Sure Customers are a pain - but you chose them, no one forced you to go after their money. (It is why I no longer work in the automotive or aerospace business - their cookie cutter requirements to fill out reams of paper with useless infromation that no one looked at logically kept me from making real quality, productivity and cost improvments.)

Yes Customers make mistakes but 2 wrongs make a right as my mother used to say. YOU made a process change that affected THEM and they are paying you for quality product and you didn't deliver.

The moral of this is verification and validation of process changes should be done to protect yourself and your customers. Double stacking changes the thermal mass and depending on how you stacked tehm it also changes the thermodynamics of conduction/convection depending on your oven. If your pies of different masses/densities they will have different thermal properties and each type will behave differently. you cannot change the laws the physics for convenience - you must test to determine the results...

Bev:
There's a lot to be learned in the kitchen with your mother, huh?
I agree (but surely two wrongs don't make a right............)

Bev:
There's a lot to be learned in the kitchen with your mother, huh?
I agree (but surely two wrongs don't make a right............)

oops. yep. I guess sipping from the cooking sherry doesn't help huh?

oops. yep. I guess sipping from the cooking sherry doesn't help huh?

...many people seem to feel sherry helps, but that is another thread...

Thanks ya'll, I was just wondering if everyone considered this a process change... and yes it did affect the customer. The pie on top of the stack did not get baked thoroughly.... what is kind of hard to figure out is how to test this.. because I have so many different pies and they all have a different mass. So maybe all double stacked lemon pies may get baked, but if I have a few double-stacked pumpkin pies (more mass) in there, the pumpkin doesn't get done.

How can I possible verify all scenarios that I might bake?.. (answering my own question here) Maybe I should bake an oven full of my highest mass pies double stacked, and adjust my oven from there. (worst case scenario) ??

It is hard to speak definitively when you are using analogies of pies. But here are a couple hard facts you may consider:

1. It is absolutely necessary that you figure out how to verify whether your processes meet the requirements. Any scenario you expect to encounter has to be verified. That is fundamental to all quality systems. You can't just guess. In automotive (TS), there is a whole super-process of APQP-FMEA-Control Plans_PPAP to validate all this. You must verifyeach meaningful characteristic.

2. In USA automotive, the PPAP book gives a few tables that explain when you have to notify a customer. Plus, they customer has a right to specify when notification is expected. Generally speaking, if you add things, to make the process more robust (add inspections or mistake-proofing), you may not need to notify. If you take anything away, you have to notify.

3. If it were easy to figure out how to test all this, then you wouldn't be getting paid the BIG BUCKS that you are! :cool:

...many people seem to feel sherry helps, but that is another thread...

well, GOOD sherry helps!:biglaugh:
cooking sherry, not so much!

well, GOOD sherry helps!:biglaugh:
cooking sherry, not so much!


COOK with the sherry...DRINK the Cabernet...:cool: