Too bad she won't share it with us all here in the open forum.

Hi Marc,

This goes back to one of my earlier remarks when I stated that:
“When it comes to this type of discussion people are afraid to show their documents for 2 reasons. One is that they are considered proprietary and two they are afraid of criticism.”

I think this discussion thread has proven both points. So far (other than svances’s original posting) I am the only one to post an example of my process map.

Many contributors at the cove make their living as consultants or auditors. I certainly don’t blame them for not wanting to give away proprietary work that has taken them 100’s of hours to develop.

In Patricia’s case I know without question she has spent many hundreds of ours developing this ANIMATED model. If she were to just give it to the cove there is no question it would be used by many people who would not even go as far as to thank her for it.

Patricia is a frequent contributor to the forum and has shared her knowledge in many postings throughout the forum. What she has developed in her Business Operating System Model is very valuable, professional, comprehensive, and easily adaptable to any business.

In my opinion she is asking a very reasonable price to purchase the model which would save company’s literally hundreds of hours of work and most likely they would never end up with a final product of this caliber or scope. I have no doubt that she has spent hundreds of hours perfecting it, and it's obvious to me nothing I've seen comes close. This is an animated Model which will make Training and implementation much easier.

It's a shame that her model doesn't just become part of the Standard. It would save companies millions of dollars in time and energy and would get everyone on the same page.

Again I would like to make one thing clear. I am not in any way working with Patricia to solicit business for her. I am simply endorsing the many hours of work she has put into this model. I truly think it would benefit many people who are stuck in this area.

kindest regards,

Rich G.

Split from: Process Map Format and Content - Correct or Incorrect (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=25884) to prevent derailing that thread.

:topic: I didn't think I'd get such a reaction to saying it would be nice if the person would share. 99.99% of the people who visit this forum don't so much as post, yet they download gigabytes of info other people have shared here every day. Some people would label these people 'leeches' because they contribute absolutely nothing. Personally, I know that is the way of the world and it's fine by me.

BTW - You most definitely are not the only one here to have shared a process map. There are plenty of process maps shared here (http://elsmar.com/Forums/fileslist.php?mode=allfiles&sortby=filename&pageamt=2&criteria=process+map) in many process map discussion (http://Elsmar.com/Forums/search.php?do=process&titleonly=1&query=process+map) threads.

The whole idea of the site is sharing. I lead off years ago by giving my powerpoint files away free. When it became too expensive to keep this site online I did start charging for the editable files, but the base files are still posted (e.g.: {one of many examples} APQP (http://elsmar.com/APQP/)). I can say I lead by example.

Everyone looks at this issue differently. I've walked into companies and low and behold they had and were using materials which I had authored (and which I had gotten bits and pieces from elsewhere myself - None of this is really new...). I've always been flattered. Others would be upset because they didn't make their 'dime' off the material.

Someone once asked me if I was upset that people were 'stealing' my ideas. The answer is no - Ultimately none of this is new, and I'm glad I could help someone.

As to consultants who visit here who aren't interested in sharing, who are "...not wanting to give away proprietary work that has taken them 100’s of hours to develop...", it's most probably that they, like me, got most (if not all) of their ideas from others whom they are not sharing any $ with. Actually, most of the people who buy my editable files are consultants who don't want to spend 100's of hours reinventing the wheel.

But, be that as it may.... Whether or not a person wants to share is totally up to them. It won't stop me from suggesting, from time to time, that it might be nice if someone shares. Nor do I think it's wrong (or a big deal) for me to suggest that someone share something.

OK, I feel like I am getting into the middle of a conversation, so I am a little unclear what the issue is. But, as to sharing files, here are some thoughts.

The primary intent for this site is helping others. That can come in many different forms. If someone does not share a file, there may be several different reasons:

1. The file is copyright protected
2. The file is proprietary
3. Various other personal reasons

I am fine with all three. However... it does become a little too much of a teaser if one keeps referring to some document, process map, etc. and can't provide it as a reference. Like the guy saying "Wow.. I was there! It was awesome!" but no one else can ever see it.

Now... as far as criticism: I think most everyone here is quite grateful when people provide files. Now if there are some fundamental problems/issues with the attachment, I think it behooves others to address it. Are we not all in the business of process improvement? If that criticism ever becomes too strong, just report the post. It will be dealt with.

I did not add any files on this particular subject for one reason. I got a lot of what went into my process map from right here. There are tons of examples, and a simple search would find lots. The older I get, the less often I post to threads that have been covered multiple times in the past. If I do post, I would likely recommend looking through the previous threads, but in the last year or so, so many of the new posters complained about the "old timers" saying, "try a search" that I haven't even been doing that much because I don't want people to think I am judging someone that did not do searches first. I know that sometimes you are in a hurry, and some of us are better about defining searches. :2cents:

Folks, please don't take this as a negative thread. Those of you who know me know I'm always prodding people to share and to help each other. There is nothing personal in this thread.

Yeah, what she said. I agree and have the same experiences.

Sharing information is the basis of this forum, it's only natural that if you're going to use the forum you should expect the other users to want you to share your information. This doesn't mean that you necessarily have to do so, however, it is through the generousity and contribution of time and info by the users of this forum, that this place functions at all.

If you're going to sell (exclaim a products wonderful attributes in public) but not be able to actually provide the item, you should expect that people are going to ask for it. If you don't want to be asked for it, then you shouldn't be exclaiming it's greatness on a public forum and instead should use more discrete channels, or more suitable areas, to sell your product.

I think the problem here is that the author could not share the data publicly on a public forum, and therefore should have written a private message to the OP....the way it was written it ended up a tease for the readers of the forum and was just begging for someone to say "hey, share it here now that you've exclaimed how great it is."

:2cents:

Anyhow, I don't think there is any "end-all" format for process maps, if it works for your company, if it makes sense to your management and it covers the necessary data in an industry accepted format, then that is all you need, the rest is just a matter of opinion and personal tastes.

Folks, please don't take this as a negative thread. Those of you who know me know I'm always prodding people to share and to help each other. There is nothing personal in this thread.

Oh, heavens no, I don't take it as negative at all, I just thought I'd give a reason why I don't always jump right in to add a file. Most of the stuff I do is old hat, been here, done here, no need to repost.

We're cool, and U (still) D Man!

Folks, please don't take this as a negative thread. Those of you who know me know I'm always prodding people to share and to help each other. There is nothing personal in this thread.

Marc,

We know. Not an issue.

I like to share stuff that may help others. The appreciation from my Fellow Covers makes it very worthwhile. But that's my personal view.

Being here and reading the posts and looking at the attachments has been very rewarding for me because of the the things I've learned about industries that I am not so familiar with.

Stijloor.

I totally endorse the views expressed by Stijloor.

I remember my early days in employment, where I got excellant support from my superiors and peers in developing my skills and for that I shall be always indebted to those individuals.

With this in the background, I always try to reach out to all my colleagues, friends and the covers. The "Thanks" which they convey is priceless. :D

After all, "A friend in need is a friend indeed" ;)

Sharing information is the basis of this forum, it's only natural that if you're going to use the forum you should expect the other users to want you to share your information. This doesn't mean that you necessarily have to do so, however, it is through the generousity and contribution of time and info by the users of this forum, that this place functions at all.

If you're going to sell (exclaim a products wonderful attributes in public) but not be able to actually provide the item, you should expect that people are going to ask for it. If you don't want to be asked for it, then you shouldn't be exclaiming it's greatness on a public forum and instead should use more discrete channels, or more suitable areas, to sell your product.

I think the problem here is that the author could not share the data publicly on a public forum, and therefore should have written a private message to the OP....the way it was written it ended up a tease for the readers of the forum and was just begging for someone to say "hey, share it here now that you've exclaimed how great it is."

:2cents:

Anyhow, I don't think there is any "end-all" format for process maps, if it works for your company, if it makes sense to your management and it covers the necessary data in an industry accepted format, then that is all you need, the rest is just a matter of opinion and personal tastes.


I don't know. I don't see a problem at all. I am a consultant as well. I post some things free, and offer some things for sale. If you like the tease, buy the product. If you don't, don't buy it. After all, your company doesn't give away its products, do you? We talk about commercial products on this forum. A software item is just another product.

If it is good, it is worth paying for, especially from a regular contributor. We provide a lot of free consultation on this forum. Why begrudge if we don't make everything free.

What we're dealing with here is the same fundamental issue as the music download/copyright/piracy tussle which started with Napster.

There are many folks here who have worked hard to create new and innovative ways to document, implement and audit/improve quality management systems, tools and so forth. Some may want to post them freely and have the satisfaction of a job well done. Others may wish to have their work at least given some form of recognition by the users, and thirdly there are those who feel as if their work is worth some form of payment. I see no problem with all three existing side by side here at the Cove. Indeed, maybe there should be a 'shop front' where people can post creative solutions to be sampled and if the customer wants more, purchased.

I don't know. I don't see a problem at all. I am a consultant as well. I post some things free, and offer some things for sale. If you like the tease, buy the product. If you don't, don't buy it. After all, your company doesn't give away its products, do you? We talk about commercial products on this forum. A software item is just another product.

I agree....

I have personally learned a lot from you and others' and appreciate professionals sharing the "base line" documentation/information. You may call the files you shared as a tease. I believe they are base line/jumping board...As a consultant I tell my clients that their worst effort is more useful to them than my best effort. I am a big advocate of coaching. I have not seen a file that could be used directly as a direct plug and play module (with the exception of FMEA and couple of other TS16949 forms).

I also have to say that for every idea shared, the contributor gains at least 100X. The gain could be classified as financial or in terms of knowledge ..

I am a proud to be a contributor of this forum, both in terms of file sharing and $.

After reading the posts from folks on my A list, I figured I better research this some more. I read the original post that split from. Please allow me some clarifications on my opinions.

Hi Marc,

Many contributors at the cove make their living as consultants or auditors. I certainly don’t blame them for not wanting to give away proprietary work that has taken them 100’s of hours to develop.

In Patricia’s case I know without question she has spent many hundreds of ours developing this ANIMATED model. If she were to just give it to the cove there is no question it would be used by many people who would not even go as far as to thank her for it.

Patricia is a frequent contributor to the forum and has shared her knowledge in many postings throughout the forum. What she has developed in her Business Operating System Model is very valuable, professional, comprehensive, and easily adaptable to any business.

In my opinion she is asking a very reasonable price to purchase the model which would save company’s literally hundreds of hours of work and most likely they would never end up with a final product of this caliber or scope. I have no doubt that she has spent hundreds of hours perfecting it, and it's obvious to me nothing I've seen comes close. This is an animated Model which will make Training and implementation much easier.

It's a shame that her model doesn't just become part of the Standard. It would save companies millions of dollars in time and energy and would get everyone on the same page.

Again I would like to make one thing clear. I am not in any way working with Patricia to solicit business for her. I am simply endorsing the many hours of work she has put into this model. I truly think it would benefit many people who are stuck in this area.

kindest regards,

Rich G.

Rich, I totally agree with you!:yes: I greatly appreciate your respect for not just sending Patricia's stuff out without her permission. I have no problem with her keeping it close. I do agree with Marc, it would be nice. But no one thinks anything less of her for wanting to sell it. Based on your statements and what I know of Patricia, I would probably try to purchase it if I needed it.

You take me back to a time of respect and honor; one of which we could stand a little more of.

If you're going to sell (exclaim a products wonderful attributes in public) but not be able to actually provide the item, you should expect that people are going to ask for it. If you don't want to be asked for it, then you shouldn't be exclaiming it's greatness on a public forum and instead should use more discrete channels, or more suitable areas, to sell your product.


I agree with Benjamin as a matter of approach, hence my previous post, which was made before I read this specific situation.


I don't know. I don't see a problem at all. I am a consultant as well. I post some things free, and offer some things for sale. If you like the tease, buy the product. If you don't, don't buy it. After all, your company doesn't give away its products, do you? We talk about commercial products on this forum. A software item is just another product.

If it is good, it is worth paying for, especially from a regular contributor. We provide a lot of free consultation on this forum. Why begrudge if we don't make everything free.

I agree....

I have personally learned a lot from you and others' and appreciate professionals sharing the "base line" documentation/information. You may call the files you shared as a tease. I believe they are base line/jumping board...As a consultant I tell my clients that their worst effort is more useful to them than my best effort. I am a big advocate of coaching. I have not seen a file that could be used directly as a direct plug and play module (with the exception of FMEA and couple of other TS16949 forms).

I also have to say that for every idea shared, the contributor gains at least 100X. The gain could be classified as financial or in terms of knowledge ..

I am a proud to be a contributor of this forum, both in terms of file sharing and $.

I too agree. Wow, I ought to get into politics, holding three different views at once!:lol:

For me, there are degrees of separation, here. There are things that are black/white (abject, blatant spam), but the vast majority of situations are not that clear. In the current scenario, I have no problem with touting another product, especially that you gave the disclaimer you have no relation to it.

I have said before, I have no problem with regular members/contributers here having some discretion in their products/services. With me, they have earned it. Being in the consultation business or directly linked to the relevant product is what strengthens your expertise in your posts.

I do have an issue with a newbie (NOT this thread or situation) who makes no contributions, helps no one, and starts touting their product/service.

As to the file sharing, I still maintain the same thoughts as in my previous post. It's appreciated if you do, but not thought less of if it is your source of income.

Hi Marc,

Looks like we opened a good topic of discussion. I wish I had more time to write a response but we had a pretty sizable lay-off on Friday which meens I will be picking up some added responsibilities.

I would however like to say thank you for offering us a place to hold these discussions. I feel the cove is an invaluable source of information and stimulating to the brain.

kindest regards,

Rich Giles

Hi Marc,

Looks like we opened a good topic of discussion. I wish I had more time to write a response but we had a pretty sizable lay-off on Friday which meens I will be picking up some added responsibilities.

I would however like to say thank you for offering us a place to hold these discussions. I feel the cove is an invaluable source of information and stimulating to the brain.

kindest regards,

Rich Giles

Hi Rich,

Yeah, this was a good topic for discussion. Its not only stimulating - in my case the Cove is "habit forming" ;)