We are a custom machine shop certified to ISO 9001 and are developing Turtle Diagrams for our processes. During last years surveillance audit, our auditor suggested developing turtle diagrams for our processes.

I need help in identifying the metrics for the Quoting process and the Sales Process (Order Processing).

Due to our business we do not track number of quotes submitted to number of customer orders placed. This is not a beneficial metric for us.

Also, if I am not able to identify metrics, can you have a turtle diagram without metrics?

Thank you in advance for your help.
Sandy

Due to our business we do not track number of quotes submitted to number of customer orders placed. This is not a beneficial metric for us.

Also, if I am not able to identify metrics, can you have a turtle diagram without metrics?

Thank you in advance for your help.
Sandy



Hope this process map helps you in setting metrics for quotation process.

We are a custom machine shop certified to ISO 9001 and are developing Turtle Diagrams for our processes. During last years surveillance audit, our auditor suggested developing turtle diagrams for our processes.

I need help in identifying the metrics for the Quoting process and the Sales Process (Order Processing).

Due to our business we do not track number of quotes submitted to number of customer orders placed. This is not a beneficial metric for us.

Also, if I am not able to identify metrics, can you have a turtle diagram without metrics?

Thank you in advance for your help.
Sandy


Sandy:
Why are you doing this? Was this just a suggestions, or did your auditor think you'd get some benefit in better defining your processes. If you are registered, what measurement/monitoring do you do for this process already? You could be in for a lot of work doing something which may not (ultimately) be of benefit. And doing something like this, just because it sounds like a 'good idea' isn't always the right reason.

Help us to understand so we can guide you.....

When the process approach was new to our company, we used the turtle diagrams for every major process. I changed the turtle diagram around a bit, and that helped. It is now a training tool that I use with Managers, Supervisors and employees.

The metrics for each process was also difficult at first, but we listed slimple thngs we could measure. Last year I was also given a list of typical process performance measurements, and I have used it frequently.

I will be happy to share them with you. Hope these help. Let me know.

A comprehensive list! Thanks!

One word of caution when identifying what to measure. Simple to measure things aren't always the most appropriate.

Think speeding, for example. The police (Perhaps even Randy) issue tickets for excess speed. Why? Because it's easy to measure. The overall objective/metric (they will tell you) is trying to reduce deaths on the road.

However, other sources of problems which lead to death on the road (it ain't just speed is it?) are difficult to measure, even though they may be the leading causes. I'm talking about things like tire pressures, road conditions, vehicle maintenance, driver competencies and so on.

We are a custom machine shop certified to ISO 9001 and are developing Turtle Diagrams for our processes. During last years surveillance audit, our auditor suggested developing turtle diagrams for our processes.

I need help in identifying the metrics for the Quoting process and the Sales Process (Order Processing).

Due to our business we do not track number of quotes submitted to number of customer orders placed. This is not a beneficial metric for us.

Also, if I am not able to identify metrics, can you have a turtle diagram without metrics?

Thank you in advance for your help.
Sandy

Cl 4.1.e requires you to monitor or measure each process in your system. However, don't just guess as to what you should measure.

Cl 4.1.c requires you to define for each process, what criteria or aspects of that process are important to you, to detemine effectiveness.

The way this works, if you can define the important criteria first, it will direct you to what you should meausre.

For example, if getting quotes to the customer quickly is important, then you might want to measure that. If the number of quotes won is important, you might choose to measure that instead.

First, decide what is important about that process, then decide what to measure.

We are a custom machine shop certified to ISO 9001 and are developing Turtle Diagrams for our processes. During last years surveillance audit, our auditor suggested developing turtle diagrams for our processes.

I need help in identifying the metrics for the Quoting process and the Sales Process (Order Processing).

Due to our business we do not track number of quotes submitted to number of customer orders placed. This is not a beneficial metric for us.

Also, if I am not able to identify metrics, can you have a turtle diagram without metrics?

Thank you in advance for your help.
Sandy

While Turtle Diagrams can be helpful according to some, there are those who clearly take the opposing view. The attached article by Mike Micklewright, which appeared in Quality Digest Magazine, entitled, "Auditors, Turtle Diagrams and Waste", provides a compelling perspective.

As Mr. Micklewright points out, Turtle Diagrams are not mandatory...so make sure they really add value before you embark on utilizing them. Don't do them just because the auditor suggests it...Do them only if they make sense for you and your organization.

Patricia Ravanello

Thanks, Patricia.

I'm one of those who have developed a passion against the use of Turtles as a means to document a process. Yes, for those auditors who were challenged to "think process", they are a fairly useful tool to help address part of the required planning.

As a tool to document a process as part of an effective quality management system - they have no place (and I could write for hours why not).

Sandy, stop using them now.........and find out how to process map correctly. Not just flow chart something. Do proper process mapping and realize the benefits to the organization of the non-vlaue added activities that procedures, flowcharts and turtles don't give you.

It is easy to dismiss process turtles once you have been in the game for a while.

They are a good educational tool for those who are not living and breathing Quality Management Systems.

Remember that to be successful in quality management you need to make sure that the other functional areas are on the same page.

...and I could write for hours why not... Could you please give use a few examples of why not to use Turtle Diagrams? I'm not necessarily a fan, but some specific reasons would help us all.

Could you please give use a few examples of why not to use Turtle Diagrams? I'm not necessarily a fan, but some specific reasons would help us all.

For specific reasons...read the article attached to Item#7 in this thread.

Patricia