I am new to the AS world and fairly new to Elsmar, so if this question has been posted and answered I apologize in advance.
In investigating the world of AS Registration a couple of requirements/principals of the registration process have surfaced maybe an experienced or "Certified" AS Auditor could shed some light on these for me:

a) Does AS Certification as a lead auditor require that you come out of the aerospace industry? If so which document lays out this and other requirements? Would this be in ISO10011-2:1991?
b) In the ISO world of certification it is in the registrars authority to view "minor non-conformances" as continual or continuous opportunities and reviewable on future audits. Thus allowing certification to take place prior to the CA's verification taking place. AS doesn't allow this? All minor non-conformances, not findings, need to be addressed prior to the certification being issued, is this correct?


Thanks in advance

Bob,

In general if you are planning to work for a registrar, than experience in the aerospace industry is a requirement. Most training organizations (only my experience) typically issue certifications worded something like “RABQSA – Certified ISO 9001:2000 Lead Auditor Training with AS9100 Aerospace Auditor Training”.

The actual sector control of the registration/audit process is controlled by ISO 19011:2002, Guidelines for quality and/or environmental management systems auditing and AS9104, Requirements for Aerospace QMS Certification/Registrations Programs.

Findings of nonconformity or possible nonconformity are controlled as follows:

Major – Total breakdown of absence of a QMS element specified by the standard.

Minor – Single failure or lapse in the system.

Opportunity for Improvement/Scope for improvement – Something was observed that could not be directly call nonconformity but the organization (your company) should investigate further. Usually the registrar will re-investigate the OFI/SFI at next scheduled audit.

I would recommend that if you do not have experience in the AS9100 standard it would be of benefit to take a Lead Auditor course as this will give you insight into the requirements of the standards, the methods of performing registration audits, the drivers of this sector specific quality management systems and a whole book full of ISO, AS and Aerospace Information documents. As a friend of mine once said, “everything in the AS9100 can be linked back to something the FAA found during their audit of OEMs".

If so which document lays out this and other requirements? AS9104/3 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9104/3) All minor non-conformances, not findings, need to be addressed prior to the certification being issued, is this correct?All NC's identified by the CB have to be closed before a certificate is issued.

Sidney,

I see you are referencing AS9104/3, Requirements for Aerospace Auditor Competency and Training Courses. Why do you believe that this would be of value for someone becoming a lead auditor as it is geared to auditor course development?

In a previous role I got involved with AS 9100 training and at that time (about 2000) I don't think there was a lead auditor course specifically for AS 9100. It was necessary to pass the standard QMS LA course and then pass a 3 day 'transition' course before being deemed suitably trained to apply to become an AS 9100 lead auditor which also has experience requirements to satisfy too. Things may have changed since then though.

I am new to the AS world and fairly new to Elsmar, so if this question has been posted and answered I apologize in advance.
In investigating the world of AS Registration a couple of requirements/principals of the registration process have surfaced maybe an experienced or "Certified" AS Auditor could shed some light on these for me:

a) Does AS Certification as a lead auditor require that you come out of the aerospace industry? Basically speaking....YES

If so which document lays out this and other requirements?
The requirements are established by the Accreditation Bodies that issue the certificates...ie RABQSA, IRCA, etc


Would this be in ISO10011-2:1991?No

Thanks in advance

I have attached the 2002 version of the RABQSA requirments and it may be out of date. I'm in an airport and I don't have time to go fishing for ya...


As to the training....You must take and successfully pass an accredited AS9100 Lead Auditor course....and I know who can give you that training if you ask;)

Why do you believe that this would be of value for someone becoming a lead auditor as it is geared to auditor course development?Not sure why you think it applies only to course development. If you read the abstract of AS9104/3
Scope:
This document provides the minimum requirements (Body of Knowledge) for AQMS auditors who will participate in AQMS certification/registration activities, including the auditor authentication process and requirements for a training organization. It is applicable to auditors seeking formal approval to conduct audits of the AQMS in support of the IAQG, and those who manage the competency element of an AQMS audit program and/or training organizations.

Sidney Thanks for the information about AS9104/3. I must confess that I only have the AIR5493 on hand and not the AS document. I always considered that the requirements from the AIRs document as a flown down into the Lead Auditor course but I see that I should obtain a copy of AS9104/3.

I am a little confused and was hoping someone could clear up a debate that has started in my shop. I was trained to be an internal auditor for ISO 9001, ISO 13485, ISO 17025 and AS9100 over the years. I have implemented ISO systems, performed audits and trained internal auditors in all of these ares, as well. I never took a RAB or ANAB course - I was trained internally. I have certs from my instructors, but none claim to be ANAB etc. trained themselves.... I was just told that I am not qualified to audit AS9100 because you MUST have have a certification from an accredited training organization (ie ANSI-RAB or ANAB or such) is this true? I don't want the registrar coming in and disqualifying the validity of our audits because I am not "certified" (although I have performed about 50 AS9100 internal audits in the last 10 years...) HELP!

Joe

I was just told that I am not qualified to audit AS9100 because you MUST have have a certification from an accredited training organization (ie ANSI-RAB or ANAB or such) is this true?Joe, first of all, it is not true. So, relax.
The best way to approach this is always to ask the question to whomever is telling you the bad news: where is this requirement coming from? It is not in 9100, it is not in AS9104, AS9014, 17021, etc... So, please tell me, where is the requirement for internal auditors to be certified stipulated?

If you are knowledgeable about the standard, have the skill set to perform as a competent auditor, you do not have to have any specific certification as an internal auditor to audit against the AS9100 norm.

It is interesting, however, how this specific rumor persists.

I thank you for your reply. I believe you and can not imagine what value would be added by "Cert" to my abilities to audit and understand the Standard. Someone has suggested that maybe it's a Boeing or Lockheed requirement that has been flowed down through their suply chain. I looked at their websites but am unconvinced... Although I do not have true "supplier access" rights to their sites... What do you think?

Joe

What do you think?At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, until someone SHOWS you such requirement, somewhere, it is just an innuendo.

Who is telling you that? In a tactful and diplomatic manner (as auditors should always do :tg:), tell him/her: unless you are able to produce objective evidence of the requirement in question, I will proceed under the understanding that such requirement is just a figment of someone's imagination and any attempt to comply with an imaginary requirement would only adversely affect our financial results, without an associated return on the investment....or you can try this slightly less subtle approach: knuckle-head, put up or shut up:mad:!

I just wanted to say that Sidney is absolutely right in his interpretation for AS9100. As for why this rumour persists, it might come from the automotive industry and the old QS9000, the new TS16946 and the related Customer Specific Requirements from Ford, GM and Chrysler. I tend to find when auditors audit multiple standards sometimes they get mixed up as to which standard or specification the requirement came from. As such, they inadvertently ask for things that are not required by that specific standard. Anyways, I hope this helps.:)

I have attached the 2002 version of the RABQSA requirments and it may be out of date. I'm in an airport and I don't have time to go fishing for ya...
Definitely out of date. The requirements were extensively changed toward the end of 2004, and have been changed several times since then as well.

As to the training....You must take and successfully pass an accredited AS9100 Lead Auditor course....and I know who can give you that training if you ask;)
I assume you are talking about me? ;)

I am a little confused and was hoping someone could clear up a debate that has started in my shop. I was trained to be an internal auditor for ISO 9001, ISO 13485, ISO 17025 and AS9100 over the years. I have implemented ISO systems, performed audits and trained internal auditors in all of these ares, as well. I never took a RAB or ANAB course - I was trained internally. I have certs from my instructors, but none claim to be ANAB etc. trained themselves.... I was just told that I am not qualified to audit AS9100 because you MUST have have a certification from an accredited training organization (ie ANSI-RAB or ANAB or such) is this true? I don't want the registrar coming in and disqualifying the validity of our audits because I am not "certified" (although I have performed about 50 AS9100 internal audits in the last 10 years...) HELP!

Joe
I agree with what Sidney said. There is no requirement for an internal auditor to have any kind of certification. The basic requirement is competence.

:topic:
BTW, ANAB does not certify auditors at all, and ANSI-RAB no longer exists. In the USA, RABQSA does auditor certification.

I am in the middle of my AS9100 rev C training, is or has anybody else completed it? I'm loving it, bloody hard work at times though... I can name a great company in the UK providing lead auditor training to AS9100 rev C (IRCA) I am very impressed, 3 days in :)

You're getting auditor training to Rev C?

Lead Auditor training to Rev C?

Lead auditor to rev c. It's really good, but loads of "out of class work"!

Lead auditor to rev c. It's really good, but loads of "out of class work"!

Who is the provider and who is the accrediting body?

There may be a bunch of folks interested in this.

Tec transnational and irca. Interesting thing is that ads/sbac are also assessing the course this week. Great insight!

Tec transnational w/ David Scrimshire?

The very man. Such a character! Do you know him?

Know him? I spent 3 great days in his home and in Warrick with him and his lovely wife. My 1st and only trip to England was hosted by a real English Gentleman

Please say hello for me....Randy Daily, BSI America

Will do. Is he not on here? I'll have to change that lol

Interesting. Accredited training to AS9100 Rev C is not available, and won't be available until after 30 April 2010 (http://www.sae.org/aaqg/press/icop0911.pdf).

I'm in the middle of teaching an AS9100 (Rev B) lead auditor class this week. We have discussed the differences between Revs B and C, but the official course is taught to Rev B only.

What about those who have attended Revs b trainings this year? Do they have to follow a complete new training on Revs c in April next year?