The company I work for is currently documenting their processes. We are doing process maps and written procedures. Currently they are 2 seperate documents. I have had many requests asking that these documents be put into one document. Does anyone else have any experience with this and maybe some examples I could see?

Welcome Hoef!

When many organizations document their systems and methods, it is often the case that they 'over' produce documents. If you have well contructed flows or process maps, the procedures shouldn't be needed. You may need some further explanation of a step in the flow, so that might indicate a work instruction - very task specific - is needed. As long as you are not trying to descibe the same thing in both process flow/map and procedure, you should be o.k.

I'll see if I can find an example - others will give you their's I'm sure!

I wholeheartedly agree with AndyN point of view - it´s better to take some more time in preparing a better flowchart or process map. In fact, the "process approach" is just that, less documented procedures (which are in fact very difficult to folow in the real word) and better defined process (a shame some auditors still think the old "say what you do and do what you say" way - this is good for computer programming, though :-).

Anyway, there´s need for more information about the process in the process description thatn only the flowchart or process map. Just to name a few: process owner, process objective, interrelatioship with other process (this can be shown in the mapping but sometimes it´s can´t be done right in this way), measurement activies, data collection points, planning activites, etc. Although in the final process map some of these are already dealt with (and other related information also), as you´re in the step of process mapping i suggest you try to keep the history of the process development inside the process descrition (or at least in a easily reference) in this way any decisions regarding process change (for example, due to process variation, process improvement, or process risk management) can be made using the "factual aproach to decision making" quality principle.

The company I work for is currently documenting their processes. We are doing process maps and written procedures. Currently they are 2 seperate documents. I have had many requests asking that these documents be put into one document. Does anyone else have any experience with this and maybe some examples I could see?
We insist on a process map within our procedures, as it is so much easier to follow than pages of words. If you add procedural references to the flowchart, you can use the map as a sort of index, for when you need to add additional information, for example what the roles and responsibilities are associated with a particular step, or a reference to another procedure.

It works very well, especially when using multiple languages - flowcharts seem to be universally understood and this limits the mangling of the original intent by translation.

Jimmy

What software package do you use to document the process within your procedures?

We insist on a process map within our procedures, as it is so much easier to follow than pages of words. If you add procedural references to the flowchart, you can use the map as a sort of index, for when you need to add additional information, for example what the roles and responsibilities are associated with a particular step, or a reference to another procedure.

It works very well, especially when using multiple languages - flowcharts seem to be universally understood and this limits the mangling of the original intent by translation.

Jimmy

What software are you using?

Welcome to the Cove, Hoef, :bigwave:We insist on a process map within our procedures, as it is so much easier to follow than pages of words. Likewise. Our maps are not intended to be stand-alone documents (we use Visios, usually the "swimlanes" template - there is an example somewhere in the Cove). We include them in our written procedures and keep the written word to a minimum.

/Claes

Added in edit: Found the example: Internal Audit System (http://elsmar.com/Forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2131&d=1083651818)

We are using Viso

We are insisting that there be a process map and written procedure. Currently some of my collegues would like to see it as one document instead of two. I'm trying to decided the best way, if there is a way to combine the 2 docs together.

Great Thanks so much....... I appreciate it.

What if there is some detailed info to give that is not task specific. Do you put this right in the flow?

What software are you using?
We also use Visio, but a word of caution. Our electronic document management system works by rendering documents into Adobe Acrobat format (.pdf). Visio flowcharts often get scrambled during the rendering process. The workaround we use is to make the flowchart in Visio, save it as a Jpeg, and then insert that.

It may just be a fault with our system, but worth checking before you get embarrassed!

Jimmy

I'm trying to decided the best way, if there is a way to combine the 2 docs together.There is: You can easily put Visio maps in word documents. We do.What if there is some detailed info to give that is not task specific. Do you put this right in the flow?That is the kind of thing we usually put in the text part of the document.

/Claes

We also use Visio, but a word of caution. Our electronic document management system works by rendering documents into Adobe Acrobat format (.pdf). Visio flowcharts often get scrambled during the rendering process. The workaround we use is to make the flowchart in Visio, save it as a Jpeg, and then insert that.

It may just be a fault with our system, but worth checking before you get embarrassed!

Jimmy

We use a combination of both written procedures and flow charts here but for different process, one area may need their processes charted and others have written documentation. Depends on the need and whether a visual works better for those following it.

I use visio to create charts and don't have any problems saving to a .pdf file prior to publishing on our intranet.

I haven't created word documents with inserted visio charts though.

I have had some problems creating a pdf from the application the document is created in (ie visio or word) from the short cut menu and find it better to create and save the doc in original program, then open adobe and create new pdf from existing file.

I'm using Abode Acrobat 8 Professional.

cheers,

Wendy

I’ve done more than one company with combined process flow and procedure – all in one document… the first sections of the procedure are the normal things e.g. purpose, scope, abbreviation, responsibility, etc… then comes the procedure itself which is combined with process flow on the right side (only keyword of the action and the responsible is mentioned and directional flow ofcourse), then the procedure on the left side (correspond to the process flow at the right side) detailing more the process involved…

I have come across just flow chart and some minor discriptions along side without any big work instructions written. Unfortunately i dont have a copy of it ...so its all about what people understand out of it matters.

We are running into the same problem. Do you put the two documents together or keep them separate?

Do you have an example I could look at?

How are you putting visio maps into word docs?

How are you putting visio maps into word docs?

I'm using Visio 2000, but the procedure should be the same for other versions. You can do it by opening the Visio document, and from the File menu choosing "Copy Drawing" and then pasting it into Word (or Excel, or whatever). You can also open Word and from the Insert menu, choose "Object" then "Create From File," and then the path to Visio file you want to imbed.

You can do it by opening the Visio document, and from the File menu choosing "Copy Drawing" and then pasting it into Word (or Excel, or whatever).

You can also use Paste Special in Word and paste it as an enhanced metafile. This should help the rendering problem if saving the document as a PDF. The nice thing about metafiles (EMF and the older WMF formats) is that they can be resized, it will still render the text nicely, whereas other formats such as BMP and JPG will not.

If your flow is multiple pages how do you get all the pages to show up? Right now only my 1st page shows up unless I double click on it, then it opens the flow up in visio.

If your flow is multiple pages how do you get all the pages to show up? Right now only my 1st page shows up unless I double click on it, then it opens the flow up in visio.

When I incorporate a VISIO document into a WORD document. I save each VISO page separetly as a graphic, typically as a "wmf'. Then is insert the 'wmf' into the WORD document whereever it is applicable.

Doug

As far as document control goes, how do you maintain these?

As far as document control goes, how do you maintain these?

The file name is my control. In VISIO you have a text block that is your filename. So when I place the date 051308 (mm/dd/yy) in the file name - that is the date of the file. When I am in draft mode I place a 'd' in front of the date. So a file without a 'd' is a file which has been issued. In the case of multiple pages, such as the one I attached, I do keep all the pages to the same date - even though the change might not have affected one of the pages. In the file I atteched, the second page did not have any changes (indicated in red).

Doug

[quote=hoef03;248532]The company I work for is currently documenting their processes. We are doing process maps and written procedures. Currently they are 2 seperate documents. I have had many requests asking that these documents be put into one document. Does anyone else have any experience with this and maybe some examples I could see?[/I have been combining both documents for years. Corrective Action is a procedure but it is also a process I call them Process Procedures with a flow chart type procedure.

I have been combining both documents for years. Corrective Action is a procedure but it is also a process I call them Process Procedures with a flow chart procedure

Do you have an example I could see?

Wow - that's a seriously complicated looking document! A lot of work and effort has been put into that! But I have to ask. Is it really necessary to make the process (in this case Management Review) that complex?;)

[quote=hoef03;248532]The company I work for is currently documenting their processes. We are doing process maps and written procedures. Currently they are 2 seperate documents. I have had many requests asking that these documents be put into one document. Does anyone else have any experience with this and maybe some examples I could see?[/I have been combining both documents for years. Corrective Action is a procedure but it is also a process I call them Process Procedures with a flow chart type procedure.

Many companies combine them. It is simply an illustration of what the narrative part of the procedure says. They also embed photos and other diagrams. Whatever you want is fine.

We use a software package called 4TQ from Axion, this enables you to produce either a flow chart on it's own or an automatically generated word document with both the flow chart and the written procedure, with document control, version control, review control and links to compliance sections (eg ISO9001).

do you have an example so that I can see what your document looks like?

Regarding the mandatory 6 procedures, Can it be done with just a flow chart or do you have to have to do it the old fashioned way with a flow chart added.

Flowcharts/process maps are fine for any procedures - as long as they work for you.

We use a software package called 4TQ from Axion, this enables you to produce either a flow chart on it's own or an automatically generated word document with both the flow chart and the written procedure, with document control, version control, review control and links to compliance sections (eg ISO9001).

If you are going a software route I've used a package called Procarta in the past (there is a screenshot demo on their site (http://procarta.com) which may be worth a look at. This produces Visio flowcharts, and certainly can be used for procedures, but is really a process mapping package (like 4TQ?).

Regarding the mandatory 6 procedures, Can it be done with just a flow chart or do you have to have to do it the old fashioned way with a flow chart added.

It could be done as a flowchart or any other format. The question is, there are a lot of important things to say about doc control, can you put enough useful information into just a flowchart, or will it just show the sequence.

Please take a look at this Process Map, and let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Kris

I’ve done more than one company with combined process flow and procedure – all in one document… the first sections of the procedure are the normal things e.g. purpose, scope, abbreviation, responsibility, etc… then comes the procedure itself which is combined with process flow on the right side (only keyword of the action and the responsible is mentioned and directional flow ofcourse), then the procedure on the left side (correspond to the process flow at the right side) detailing more the process involved…

In this case , how do you show the interactions between processes as required by ISO 9001 clause 4.1.b ?

We are using Viso
Try TeamFlow (http://www.teamflow.com), it is much faster, easier and cheaper to use and maintain than Visio.

Try TeamFlow (http://www.teamflow.com), it is much faster, easier and cheaper to use and maintain than Visio.

John, are you associated with TeamFlow?

Stijloor.

No, as independent management systems consultants we have to be free to recommend the best process management software we can find.

Since 1988 we have found nothing to beat TeamFlow.

Our clients use TeamFlow to analyze their systems and identify their key processes. They then use TF to analyze their key processes and result in deployment (swimlane) flowcharts as documented procedures. These XML documents are hyperlinked to each other and the work instructions (as necessary for additional control) and to forms or databases to collect data.

Visio is a drawing package that sloooooows collaborative process analysis with the process expert(s). Using TeamFlow and a projector the process analysis session rarely takes longer than two hours with a well prepared process expert.

TeamFlow is designed by CFM who claim to have adopted the recommendations of Dr Deming from his work with Komatsu. Behind the 4 color flowcharts it creates little Oracle databases (BTW, this is a point you may need to make when obtaining IT's approval to put this process management software on your network beyond saying it does a lot more for process management than Visio).

If anyone knows of better process management software (@ $300 per seat) then we would like to hear about it here so we can share it with our clients.

My two cents after reading all the posts...

What is being talked about is called "Intergrated Documents"...or "Intergrated Work Instructions"...substitute any word after intergrated. The concept is that flowcharts; when properly created; can be SIMPLE methods of communicating the process steps required for success; along side of the flowchart is the text explination that can sometimes be lost within a flowchart.

As a closet writer it pains me to remove the written word from procedures but too many words loose their meaning right? So, the thought is to suplement the text with the flowchart.

I have attached a sample of what I am talking about...its not a great example but you get the hint. The procedure was still too wordy. Let me know what you think. We also used Visio like many others for this; pasting the drawings into word.

I have also attached a process flow diagram for review and comment. It was designed to replace the text in procedures; this project never really materialized as invisioned but I might try it again.

My two cents after reading all the posts...

What is being talked about is called "Intergrated Documents"...or "Intergrated Work Instructions"...substitute any word after intergrated. The concept is that flowcharts; when properly created; can be SIMPLE methods of communicating the process steps required for success; along side of the flowchart is the text explination that can sometimes be lost within a flowchart.

As a closet writer it pains me to remove the written word from procedures but too many words loose their meaning right? So, the thought is to suplement the text with the flowchart.

I have attached a sample of what I am talking about...its not a great example but you get the hint. The procedure was still too wordy. Let me know what you think. We also used Visio like many others for this; pasting the drawings into word.

I have also attached a process flow diagram for review and comment. It was designed to replace the text in procedures; this project never really materialized as invisioned but I might try it again.

Tom,

Does love of writing stop us from analyzing processes?

Process analysis can result in the procedure without duplication in a written procedure. Procedures from process analysis are usually flowcharted because MS Word etc is not a process analysis tool.

Flowcharted procedures can specify what the process team does to work together in fulfilling a process objective. If additional detail (beyond a sticky note) is needed by a member of the process team that can appear in a linked work instruction. Likewise if data must be collected the flowcharted procedure links to a separately controlled form or database.

Attached is an example of a deployment flowchart used as a procedure. It is the result of a process analysis session where someone trained to ask the right questions works with the process expert or owner. The process owner then incorporated the review comments from reps of the process team.

Leaders ensure process team members feel obliged to make sure their flowcharted procedure is used continually to improve the process.

Would your training procedure benefit from a similar approach?

John

Thanks John,

It's always good to gain more exposure to additional insight. i see what you are talking about and I like that direction. It gives me food for thought.:)

Tom,

Does love of writing stop us from analyzing processes?

Process analysis can result in the procedure without duplication in a written procedure. Procedures from process analysis are usually flowcharted because MS Word etc is not a process analysis tool.

Flowcharted procedures can specify what the process team does to work together in fulfilling a process objective. If additional detail (beyond a sticky note) is needed by a member of the process team that can appear in a linked work instruction. Likewise if data must be collected the flowcharted procedure links to a separately controlled form or database.

Attached is an example of a deployment flowchart used as a procedure. It is the result of a process analysis session where someone trained to ask the right questions works with the process expert or owner. The process owner then incorporated the review comments from reps of the process team.

Leaders ensure process team members feel obliged to make sure their flowcharted procedure is used continually to improve the process.

Would your training procedure benefit from a similar approach?

John

Attached is another format for the same process (well, the start of it anyway) - just to show that even deployment flowcharts can have different styles...!