Is there a shedule where I can check the required number of audit days for an initial certification audit, for re-certification and follow-up? Are reductions possible? (company size app. 330 employees)


Thanks for the information!

…someone to correct if I’m wrong, but there is no really specific standard no. of audit day(s) for certification audit, surveillance audit or even re-certification audit… all of these should be as per the agreement of the organization with the certifying body... since it involved so many considerations such as the no. of satellite offices (those included in your QMS scope), and their strategic locations & access, no. of your employees, etc. etc. & etc…

…in other words, you and your certifying body should be the one to agree on the no. of audit days…

(and if in case there is a specific no. of audit day as standard… I guess, you can still deviate from this to suit your organizational requirements) :2cents:

…anyway, just to share you based on my experiences, certification audit is around 2 to 3 days (to audit the entire system)… surveillance is 1 to 2 days (since it is usually not taking account the entire system), and re-certification is the same as certification audit (since they need to audit again the entire system)…

…but then again, your organization and your chosen certifying body should agree on audit plan for this purpose… :)

…reduction on the no. of audit days? :rolleyes: ... of course, you can propose this to your certifying body, :yes: specially if you have an evidence that your system is improving…

…same also, your certifying body can recommend to increase the no. of audit days :( (including additional days for verification of your corrective & preventive actions) if they have an evidence to support their recommendation…

We have a similar discussion here - Corrective action against the auditing agency? Written contract is in error (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=21031&highlight=audit+days)

And one on - Required Audit Man Days for ISO9001:2000? The IAF-GD2-2005_Guide_62_Issue_4 is here. (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=135527&postcount=14)

…someone to correct if I’m wrong, but there is no really specific standard no. of audit day(s) for certification audit, surveillance audit or even re-certification audit…

O.K - Joshua - you are off base here. There is a document which defines for a CB how many days each of these activities should take (ISO Guide 62). Yes, there are factors which affect the number of days, but it's not that flexible. Indeed, recently, CB's have been brought to task by the accreditation bodies because of too much flexibility in allocating auditor days - although it was agreed with the customer!

For AS9100 organizations this is very important.

…anyway, just to share you based on my experiences, certification audit is around 2 to 3 days (to audit the entire system)… surveillance is 1 to 2 days (since it is usually not taking account the entire system), and re-certification is the same as certification audit (since they need to audit again the entire system)…

…but then again, your organization and your chosen certifying body should agree on audit plan for this purpose… :)

The number of days is dependent on the total had count of the organization and the scope of the qms (e.g. design responsible). Joshua, for you these numbers may be true - but not for larger organizations (population). Without knowing your organization's head count the number of days is (relatively) meaningless. Also, we don't know if you're speaking of an accredited CB.

In some cases, and it's been this way since the early 90's, the re-assessment isn't an audit of the whole system! It's reduced based on past performance over the three year period of the agreement. Again, not all CB's do this. Which one are you using?

Is there a shedule where I can check the required number of audit days for an initial certification audit, for re-certification and follow-up? Are reductions possible? (company size app. 330 employees)


Thanks for the information!

You count is close to ours which is 310, so I would guess the following:

2 Man-days - Stage 1

10 Man-days -Stage 2

Yes there is a guide that the Certification Bodies use to determine man-days, but it is not the same as the one that you could download from the IAF (Guide 62 I believe)

You count is close to ours which is 310, so I would guess the following:

2 Man-days - Stage 1

10 Man-days -Stage 2

Yes there is a guide that the Certification Bodies use to determine man-days, but it is not the same as the one that you could download from the IAF (Guide 62 I believe)

That's correct. AS adds time to the Guide 62 requirements, but as I posted previously there's not much 'wiggle room' to adjust time to suit customers requests/agreements. I wanted to ensure that people understand that it's not a 'free-for-all' when it comes to assigning audit days to a client!

The process for estimating audit-days for AS9100, 9110 and 9120 audits starts by following the same protocol delineated in Appendix 2 of the IAF Guidance to ISO/IEC Guide 62. Then, augment the number of audit days according to the appropriate tables available in AS/EN 9104.

Insufficient audit days is one of the concerns over the ICOP Scheme. I reported that in the Quality Digest article AS9100: Reducing Variation in the ICOP Scheme (http://www.qualitydigest.com/currentmag/articles/05_article.shtml).

That's correct. AS adds time to the Guide 62 requirements, but as I posted previously there's not much 'wiggle room' to adjust time to suit customers requests/agreements. I wanted to ensure that people understand that it's not a 'free-for-all' when it comes to assigning audit days to a client!

Going with that information, if you are interested the IAF website is here:

http://www.iaf.nu/ for ISO9001:200X

Is there a shedule where I can check the required number of audit days for an initial certification audit, for re-certification and follow-up? Are reductions possible? (company size app. 330 employees)

I found a public document: IAF Guidance on the Application of ISO/IEC Guide 62 (http://www.compad.com.au/cms/iaf/workstation/upFiles/549378.IAF-GD2-2005_Guide_62_Issue_4_Pub.pdf), issued 15 December 2005. Starting on page 34, it explains Auditor time. It even has an auditor time chart on page 35.

Hope this helps...

I found a public document: IAF Guidance on the Application of ISO/IEC Guide 62 (http://www.compad.com.au/cms/iaf/workstation/upFiles/549378.IAF-GD2-2005_Guide_62_Issue_4_Pub.pdf), issued 15 December 2005. Starting on page 34, it explains Auditor time. It even has an auditor time chart on page 35.

Hope this helps...

Sidney is spot on as usual. Take the table on page 35 in the link above, look at additions/subtractions in the guidance following. Then, for AS9100 look at the table excerpted below from AS9104.

Sidney is spot on as usual. Take the table on page 35 in the link above, look at additions/subtractions in the guidance following. Then, for AS9100 look at the table excerpted below from AS9104.

If I am reading that correctly, for example:

Company Size 300

Guide 62 - 10 Man-days (ISO9001:2000) Stage 2 Assessment (for AS)

AS9104 - +2 man-days Stage 1 Assessment

For a total of 12 Man-days for a AS9100 Assessment

…someone to correct if I’m wrong, but there is no really specific standard no. of audit day(s) for certification audit, surveillance audit or even re-certification audit… all of these should be as per the agreement of the organization with the certifying body... since it involved so many considerations such as the no. of satellite offices (those included in your QMS scope), and their strategic locations & access, no. of your employees, etc. etc. & etc…

OK.... YOU'RE WRONG! :lol:

OK.... YOU'RE WRONG! Randy, that is why you are so controversial. You always speak in metaphors; you are always on the fence. Don't be shy. :biglaugh:

Absolutely..............;)

Sidney is spot on as usual. Take the table on page 35 in the link above, look at additions/subtractions in the guidance following. Then, for AS9100 look at the table excerpted below from AS9104.
Thanks for this info.
What if the company is ISO9001:2000 (and ISO/TS16949:2002) certified at the time of the EN9100 re-certification and also not product desing responsible? The ISO9001 and ISO/TS16949 certification has not been performed by an aerospace auditor but by an automotive auditor. Would this have an effect on the number of audit days for the re-certification for EN9100?

Sid is probably the best source here,but I would say that there could be a reduction by a day or two depending upon circumstances.

The CB has specific guidelines to follow and in the end it doesn't matter what we wish or hope for and negotiation isn't going to work.

Consider it an investment instead of a cost and have your certification work for you instead of you for it.

Sid is probably the best source here,but I would say that there could be a reduction by a day or two depending upon circumstances.

The CB has specific guidelines to follow and in the end it doesn't matter what we wish or hope for and negotiation isn't going to work.

Consider it an investment instead of a cost and have your certification work for you instead of you for it.The only times I'm aware of "fudge factors" on the number of man days required for third party audits are when both the certifying body and the client can agree the personnel count for the entire enterprise can be reduced because a significant number of personnel in the enterprise are NOT INVOLVED in the activities of the division or segment undergoing a registration audit. Those circumstances are extremely special and may include factors like "seasonal workers" and temporary layoffs.

:topic:It may be worth noting some organizations are paying excess fees for registration audits because some executive inflates the employee count as a boost to his own ego ("I manage 1,000 employees!":bonk:), not because there really are that number of folks required to run the business.

:topic:Perhaps joshua_sx1 missed that part of the course about required man days when he was applying for certification as an auditor - like out on a bio break?:confused:

Thanks for this info.
What if the company is ISO9001:2000 (and ISO/TS16949:2002) certified at the time of the EN9100 re-certification and also not product desing responsible? The ISO9001 and ISO/TS16949 certification has not been performed by an aerospace auditor but by an automotive auditor. Would this have an effect on the number of audit days for the re-certification for EN9100?

As far as I understand, it doesn't matter if you already have ISO or TS Certification. AS requires that a complete assessment be performed.

If the auditor used is not considered an Aerospace Experienced Auditor (AEA- listed in the OASIS Database) they are unable to perform as Lead Assessor, but may be part of the Assessment Team, but can not sign the Audit Report. As long as the Lead Assessor is an AEA, I believe.

If the auditor used is not considered an Aerospace Experienced Auditor (AEA- listed in the OASIS Database) they are unable to perform as Lead Assessor, but may be part of the Assessment Team, but can not sign the Audit Report. As long as the Lead Assessor is an AEA, I believe.Any supporting auditor participating in an AS9100 audit must satisfy paragraph 7.1 of AS/EN 9104, which includes approved training to AS9100.

Concerning the question if audit days reductions are possible, due to ISO 9001 and TS 16949 certification, some reduction is possible. However, a full system audit must be performed to the AS/EN 9100 document. How much reduction? Contact the CB.

Any supporting auditor participating in an AS9100 audit must satisfy paragraph 7.1 of AS/EN 9104, which includes approved training to AS9100.

Thanks for the clarification.

Any supporting auditor participating in an AS9100 audit must satisfy paragraph 7.1 of AS/EN 9104, which includes approved training to AS9100.

Concerning the question if audit days reductions are possible, due to ISO 9001 and TS 16949 certification, some reduction is possible. However, a full system audit must be performed to the AS/EN 9100 document. How much reduction? Contact the CB.

Like I said:lol:

I don’t know you guys… but reading the entire posts, made me summarized onething… “the no. of audit day(s) would still be depend on the agreement between the auditor and the auditee…”

...and the standard is only guidance of how both of them are going to agree...

I don’t know you guys… but reading the entire posts, made me summarized onething… “the no. of audit day(s) would still be depend on the agreement between the auditor and the auditee…”

...and the standard is only guidance of how both of them are going to agree...

Actually if you were as learned in auditing as you claim in your profile you should know that the agreement would be between the client, the auditing organization and according to accreditation requirements for duration.

Actually if you were as learned in auditing as you claim in your profile you should know that the agreement would be between the client, the auditing organization and according to accreditation requirements for duration.The point being, as we seemed not to make clear, is that the "guides" put out by the Accrediting Body (or Bodies) for the actions and activities of the Certifying Body (or Bodies) are the documents which address and serve as the basis or starting point for determining the number of audit days, NOT the Standards, themselves, which have no clauses addressing the number of audit days. Certifying bodies veer from those guidelines at their peril.

Sadly, the world of regulators, registrars, and the like seems to be overburdened with persnickety folk who can be extremely punctilious about following the rules they lay down, with suspensions and fines lurking in the wings for naifs who get a notion they may interpret those rules in a laissez faire fashion.

Friends,

From ISO/IEC 17021:

9.1.4 The certification body shall have documented procedures for determining audit time, and for each client the certification body shall determine the time needed to plan and accomplish a complete and effective audit of the client's management system. The audit time determined by the certification body, and the justification for the determination, shall be recorded. In determining the audit time, the certification body shall consider, among other things, the following aspects:
a) the requirements of the relevant management system standard;
b) size and complexity;
c) technological and regulatory context;
d) any outsourcing of any activities included in the scope of the management system;
e) the results of any prior audits;
f) number of sites and multi-site considerations.

Emphasis is mine. Hope this helps.

Stijloor.

Thanks Stij....I'm really pressed trying to find the "auditee" in the mix here.

Hmmmmmmmmm, must be overlooking something.;)

Thanks Stij....I'm really pressed trying to find the "auditee" in the mix here.

Hmmmmmmmmm, must be overlooking something.;)

I'm trying Randy..I'm trying...:(

Stijloor.

I don’t know you guys… but reading the entire posts, made me summarized onething… “the no. of audit day(s) would still be depend on the agreement between the auditor and the auditee…”

...and the standard is only guidance of how both of them are going to agree...

If this were even half way close to being correct, most auditees would elect to go for the minimum amount of days..............and in most cases, in a 3rd party scenario, the auditee rarely even sees the ISO Guides which relate to the audit days so they only 'agree' because they're not given an option by the CB.

You count is close to ours which is 310, so I would guess the following:

2 Man-days - Stage 1

10 Man-days -Stage 2

Yes there is a guide that the Certification Bodies use to determine man-days, but it is not the same as the one that you could download from the IAF (Guide 62 I believe)


I have before me a Quotation incluyding a non-design scope for an organization of 260 employees. Man-days are exactly the same as posted by Coury Ferguson. But another certification body has quoted 8 Man-days for Stage 2. So.... I would advice to just ask for a quotation from different bodies. And be sure to have an extensive getting-to-know-eachother conversation. (Less does not necessarily mean better, as does more of course!)

We also want to certifiy ISO 9001 together with EN9100. The tariffs between the different bodies differ even more. One does'nt even consider extra costs (exept for 3 extra pieces of paper) and the other simply ads a few extra Man-days for the certification of ISO:9001.

Stijloor mentioned the new ISO IEC 17021.

17021 cancels and replaces Guides 62 and 66. 62 an 66 are now obsolete and all references are to be replaced by ISO IEC 17021.

From ISO/IEC 17021:

9.1.4 The certification body shall have documented procedures for determining audit time, and for each client the certification body shall determine the time needed to plan and accomplish a complete and effective audit of the client's management system. The audit time determined by the certification body, and the justification for the determination, shall be recorded. In determining the audit time, the certification body shall consider, among other things, the following aspects:
a) the requirements of the relevant management system standard;
b) size and complexity;
c) technological and regulatory context;
d) any outsourcing of any activities included in the scope of the management system;
e) the results of any prior audits;
f) number of sites and multi-site considerations.


As ISO IEC 17021 does not seem to contain a 'reference' table for determining the number of audit days, to my opinion, the certification body has to comply to 9.1.4. (and the table 2 in AS9104).

Meaning the number of audit days for an initial AS/EN9100 assessment = X + 2 (size 101-1000).
X to be determined by the certification body with quite some degrees of freedom, but the certification body has to be able to justify this number according to ISO IEC 17021 9.1.4.

This is my interpretation (as an auditee).