We are a landscape gardening company aiming to gain olympic contracts and therefore need to become ISO 9001 accredited. Our design side is separate to the rest of the business. On investigating the system it seems it would be far easier to only become ISO 9001 accredited for the side of our business that is not ISO 9001 involved in design as the design team will not be involved in olympic contracts.

Would this be allowed and would we still be able to advertise ourselves as ISO 9001 accredited?

Thanx for the help with last post much appreciated...

Would this be allowed and would we still be able to advertise ourselves as ISO 9001 accredited?

Certainly allowed in my country and should be in UK - in which case, your scope would be limited to something like a 'landscape contractor'. Plenty of such organizations around and they bid for jobs designed by landscape architects. They can also outsourced the design work to landscape designers or architects but the relevant clause in ISO must apply.

Do not be overwhelmed by the word 'Design'. Actually, it is very simple for 'creative' works like landscape design to meet the requiremments of the relevant ISO clause.

Thankyou for that the thing is that even though we only need ISO 9001 for the non - designing side of things we would still landscape design private jobs but wouldnt need ISO 9001 so much for this...
Would it be illegal to be advertised as as ISO 9001 accredited Landscape garden designers and commercial landscapers.

The issue is i have just come into this business as a student new to the business and ISO 9001 completing a placement and it seems to me the design and the rest of the business is very much separate...it is difficult to see how they could maintain the same standards and im unsure if it would be possible for the design side to adjust...particularly as it doesnt seem entirely necessary.

Any help? sorry so many questions...

Would it be illegal to be advertised as as ISO 9001 accredited Landscape garden designers and commercial landscapers.

This issue had been hotly debated in some other threads and you need to be very clear about yourself (if you choose to take this route). You are a commercial landscape garden designer and landscaper as well as an ISO certified landscape contractor. There are certainly loopholes here and there such as you (as contractor) engaging a designer to design instead!

As I point out earlier, it is simple to meet the design requirement. Why not work on that and be a full fledged landscaper.
Note: the design clause is about good design practice - meaning you need to check with your client at the various stages plus take into consideration any other requirements (including building or council laws & requirements) so that the final product is acceptable by all.

Thankyou for that the thing is that even though we only need ISO 9001 for the non - designing side of things we would still landscape design private jobs but wouldnt need ISO 9001 so much for this...
Would it be illegal to be advertised as as ISO 9001 accredited Landscape garden designers and commercial landscapers.

The issue is i have just come into this business as a student new to the business and ISO 9001 completing a placement and it seems to me the design and the rest of the business is very much separate...it is difficult to see how they could maintain the same standards and im unsure if it would be possible for the design side to adjust...particularly as it doesnt seem entirely necessary.

Any help? sorry so many questions...

Firstly, your organization is not accredited to ISO 9001, you're registered or certified - the Certification Body you choose to perform your audit is the one who is accredited.

What you are discussing is a business decision that your management have to make. Do your management want to be seen in the market as capable of both design and landscaping activities? Just because you do design, doesn't mean all your work has to include design. You can also accept work from clients who have already done the design - you just implement it! It is true they are seperate processes, even 'departments', but that's not the way to view it. Your management need to decide on what's in the interests of the business growth and improvement, customers, etc.

I believe it's your lack of experience which is (understandably) leading to your confusion, so it's good you're here to get guidance!!

IMHO Implementing a QMS in totality including all your process (including design as well) will benefit the company much more than your current perception of getting accredited with an aim to participate in olympic contracts, particularly in the long run. In future you may need to demonstrate 9001 compliance for design processes as well. As Harry has mentioned in his posts, design clauses are fairly simple to implement. Also, this will lead to enhanced customer satisfaction.

The aim should be effective implementation of a well established and documented Quality Management System rather then certification. The system then may be examined and certification obtained as this will have its own benefits including those arising out of external audits and assuring the customer and others at large that the organisation is 9001 compliant, among others.

Much as I hate to come in late and stir things up! :D
Thankyou for that the thing is that even though we only need ISO 9001 for the non - designing side of things we would still landscape design private jobs but wouldnt need ISO 9001 so much for this...
Would it be illegal to be advertised as as ISO 9001 accredited Landscape garden designers and commercial landscapers.What do you mean the non design side?

From my (limited) experience a lot of what you might consider non-design probably is - selection of plants for various soil / shade conditions, selection of treatments to deal with certain conditions etc. all comes under the same heading.

Harry is right the nature of the work will mean that you can easily comply with design control - generally through some independent review of the proposed work. One thing I don't agree with is the idea that merely "outsourcing" design will make it easier - you still have to demonstrate control.

The issue is i have just come into this business as a student new to the business and ISO 9001 completing a placement and it seems to me the design and the rest of the business is very much separate...it is difficult to see how they could maintain the same standards and im unsure if it would be possible for the design side to adjust...particularly as it doesnt seem entirely necessary.
The design processes will be very different from those in the "rest" of the business - you may have stumbled on an opportunity for improvement - they should run seamlessly through from one into the other.

BTW not sure that you have to have ISO 9001 to bid on the 2012 Olympics. Under the CompeteFor banner you need to have a management system in place but it doesn't have to be ISO.

FWIW if you do apply it is for "certification" not "accreditation" - that is reserved for those that certify you. Deep joy! :bonk:

What you are discussing is a business decision that your management have to make. Do your management want to be seen in the market as capable of both design and landscaping activities? Just because you do design, doesn't mean all your work has to include design. You can also accept work from clients who have already done the design - you just implement it! It is true they are seperate processes, even 'departments', but that's not the way to view it. Your management need to decide on what's in the interests of the business growth and improvement, customers, etc.Andy, you seem to be implying that a design-capable and design-responsible organization could exclude design from it's scope of certification because some client engagements don't include design.

Then we revert back to the old days of design responsible organizations being certified to ISO 9002, instead of ISO 9001, adding to the perceived lack of credibility of CB's.

It seems to me that practice (of accepting exclusion of design) goes against the text and intent of ISO 9001 Where any requirement(s) of this International Standard cannot be applied due to the nature of an organization and its product, this can be considered for exclusion.

Where exclusions are made, claims of conformity to this International Standard are not acceptable unless these exclusions are limited to requirements within clause 7, and such exclusions do not affect the organization's ability, or responsibility, to provide product that meets customer and applicable regulatory requirements.
as well against all the Guidance documents coming from the IAF and the TC 176.

You raise a good question that I'm not sure has been addressed. The design activity that you refer to, is it "design and development" as intended in element 7.3, or is it mearly artwork.

Sometimes it is easy to mistake what may be also labeled as "art" or "style" to be "design and develpment" as described in ISO 9001:2000.

Here is the definition from ISO 9000:

3.4.4 design and development
set of processes (3.4.1) that transforms requirements (3.1.2) into specified characteristics (3.5.1) or into the specification (3.7.3) of the product (3.4.2), process (3.4.1), or system (3.2.1)

Any comments?

Thread moved to the ISO 9001 board for greater visibility.