This is from a NG that I found interesting.
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Newsgroups: misc.industry.quality
Subject: Re: ASQ Certification Exam
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:00:19 GMT
Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay

Jon wrote .
> The value of the certificate? It should help you find a better paying
job.
> According to ASQ data, Certified workers earn more on average, than those
> without.

Not to be TOO cynical, but of *course* ASQ is going to tell you it's certifications are valuable. I'd like to see independent data some day.

The professional certification program has been a great way for ASQ to shift its focus from SERVING the quality community to SELLING to it. The society does little more now than sell its products and services, and publish articles that ... well, sell its products and services. Compare its output with that of Quality Digest (a free journal that's not afraid to critique Six Sigma), and you can see what I mean.

The merits of ASQ certification are murky, but it's basically "what you do with it." Some of the companies I work with think certification is a good thing, but most see it as an expensive open-book test and a way for people to litter their letterhead with lots of abbreviations.

Specifically speaking to CQA, of which I have the most familiarity, more companies (including mine) are refusing to acknowledge it at all. I want more than a Mastercard receipt for a test as evidence of someone's ability to effectively audit systems. For auditing certification, the current best means is IRCA or RAB, where the test is real auditing, not writing essays about auditing.

>maybe it helps them get the choice jobs, or maybe the ones in
> better jobs are just more motivated to certify. No matter, many employers
> will only hire those with cert's.

And many won't. In fact, I tell people to challenge companies that require it, and explain the weaknesses in the ASQ certification system to the employer. The important thing there is not to come off as a person who is making excuses for not being certified, but someone who has a legitimate position on the subject.

> ASQ has loads of info on the exams. All you need to do is ask.

And provide a valid credit card number and exiration date.

The thing is, ASQ's role has tremendous potential; it's a shame to see the quality community so ill-served by the quasi-commercial marketing machine it's become. The good thing is that there are alternatives.

CP
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Comments folks?

I have switched jobs five times since 1996 (all my idea and all improvements to the previous). During interviews I found that interviewers were impressed that I had a CQT, CQA, CQE, and CQMgr. Most paid more attention to these than to my A.S. and B.S. degrees. I'm sure it helped with a couple jobs. Also as a consultant it helps me "prove" to clients that I know a little bit about quality.

Tom

I agree that the ASQ has probably evolved past it's original purpose and turned more to sales as its focus. The bigger benefit is with the local ASQ chapters. I was the treasurer for one in Michigan and their goal was to educate and train people at as low a cost as possible.

I have a CQT and have it noted on my resume and such. Never once have I been asked about it. Does it hurt to have the CQT? No, and I'm sure it has helped to some extent. I have found that employers and customers focus more on my other training in specialized quality fields such as auditing, APQP, FMEA, PPAP, QOS, networks etc... and past accomplishments.

ASD...

I don't believe the tests themselves to be total money generators (although I have a different stand on the "refresher courses"), there is a purpose.

As for the CEU credits, wouldn't a sane quality proffesional realize that continuing education is in their own benefit, whether ASQ certified or not?

This is not ASQ bashing on my part, just a view of my experiences, just like yours.

Have a good day.

ASD...

You are absolutely correct. Continuing education should be a part of any profession. My point was simply that ASQ doesn't simply hand out certs.

As with anything else, it depends on what you do with it. If your serious about your profession it will show. I just think ASQ certs' are one way to do that.

No bashing on my part either. JMHO.

James

------------------
Low tech is better than no tech.

I am not sure whether there is a value to having my ASQ certifications. Certainly the recertification forces a behavior of continuing education or other activies to 'stay current' in my chosen profession. Would I go to seminars and classes if they were not required. Sure, but probably not as often as I should.

On the other hand, my IRCA certification required that I 'prove' I have some expertise by having a log of the audits I performed. These logs are 'signed off' by the people I audit, most of which hire me because they feel I have that expertise but for the most part are not capable of making that assessment. Maybe the answer lies some where in between. I keep all of my certifications current because some customers value the ASQ certifications, some value the IRCA registration, and some value both.

Just because one has attended a hand gun safety class and has received a certification doesn’t mean they won’t shoot themselves in the foot.

Just because one has a B.S. in business doesn’t mean they will be successful in running company.

Just because one has achieved a CQM certification, doesn’t guarantee they will be successful in managing a quality department.

But there is a level of confidence and respect that goes behind the training and certification, but no fool proof guarantee.Originally posted by JRKH:
As with anything else, it depends on what you do with it.I believe there is a differentiation between knowledge and wisdom. Knowledge is the sum that one has learned, wisdom is how they choose to apply it. Or in the words of JRKH.... "it depends on what you do with it".

When I first entered the quality arena as an inspector, I started reading. I learned there was so much more out there than inspection. Juran, Deming, TQM, SPC etc.....
Then, as I progress in my profession I learned that my little ol' Associate degree in machine design wasn't going to do.

Guess what I found when I looked at the schools. (this was in the mid to late 1980's)
Almost nothing!! After more searching I came upon the ASQ. Finally a place where you could get credit for your knowledge, not how many credit hours you have. I jumped at the chance. Got my CQT, CQA, and CQE.

Most of these certs' require recertification every three years. Which requires proof of continuing education, or retesting. Most require a certain minimum time in the profession before taking the exam. Certification means that you are willing to take the time, and effort to learn your profession and continue learning.

I realize that more schools are offering quality as a field of study, but how many, and how magnanimous are they when it comes to cost? Didn't most of us learn our trade in the trenches?

In sum, YES certifications have been of benefit to me. And I don't believe them to be simply a revenue generator for ASQ.

I now step off my soap box.

James

------------------
Low tech is better than no tech.

[This message has been edited by JRKH (edited 20 August 2001).]

Here are a few points that have not been addressed here yet.

1. You must do more than just pay the fee and pass the test to obtain an ASQ certification. In order to be eligible you must already have a number of years of work experience in the applicable body of knowledge. Some - but not all - of the experience may be substituted with academic work. You must also have two people attest that you are a qualified practitioner in the body of knowledge, and provide proof of professionalism such as membership in a professional society that is a member of ABET. (You do not have to be a member of ASQ.)

2. They are NOT easy exams to pass! I have not been involved in proctoring them for several years so I don't have current data, but the first-time pass rate is surprisingly low. The CQT and CQE exams are by far the toughest I have taken during my career, and I did them by choice. I know several people who have taken them as many as four times in attempts to pass.

3. All but two of ASQ's certifications require regular RE-certification. That involves documenting and providing objective evidence of your ongoing employment, continuing education, publishing (darn - The Cove does'nt count!), teaching, professional development and more. If you don't accumulate enough points then you must take the exam again - and I have yet to meet anyone who wants to do that!

4. Some of these certifications are not exactly new - others are at the leading edge. The ASQ Certified Quality Engineer program started in 1968. Some are much less popular than others (anybody here a CMI or CRE?). There are new ones coming on line because of popular demand. In the ten years I have been a member the number of available certifications has doubled, and I know of at least one more that is being developed.

I am very glad I have my certifications and they are a big benefit to me. First, they validate my knowledge, skills and experience to me. Second, they do the same for an employer. (I regularly see placement listings that say something like "BSEE and 5 years experience, or an ASQ CQE".)

As JRKH alluded to, professional certification is a way of validating that you have real experience in the trenches and have learned something from it, instead of only having credit hours piled higher and deeper. But certification by itself, like a degree by itself, cannot be the whole answer especially in a job search. You still have to sell yourself as a total package and not just wave paper in their face.

------------------
Graeme C. Payne
ASQ Certified Quality Engineer


[This message has been edited by Graeme (edited 22 August 2001).]

Graeme says "But certification by itself, like a degree by itself, cannot be the whole answer especially in a job search. You still have to sell yourself as a total package and not just wave paper in their face." I like that! And, I respect those who have been in the trenches and want to further their careers. As stated further on, a track record of "work related" accomplishments is paramount to me in selecting candidates for a position. If they have the paper, that's frosting on the cake. My objection is those who undergo this schooling, no hands on experience, as an end all for seeking positions.

As a non degreed professional in ever increasing roles of responsibilities, I have different slant on the "paper". As another person has said in a post, in the 60's there were not a lot of "paper" certificates available. If you wanted to be a serious Quality Control Inspector of aircraft and it's components, you went to school and obtained a license to work on aircraft frames and engines. After serving 4 years in the US Navy, I went to work for a prominent helicopter manufacturer, with no Inspection experience except maintaining military aircraft readiness. The interviewer saw no paper, other than a Honorable Discharge. He saw something, or just needed a body. I didn't care, and Blam, a STAR WAS BORN!! Yea right…..
I started as an Inspector, advanced to Chief Inspector, Quality Control Supervisor and Quality (Assurance?) Control Manager, with a brief stint as a Senior Quality Assurance Engineer. Most of that experience was in Defense product in different companies. (Submarine and Aircraft Systems).
A few years ago, I was looking for a Mechanical Inspector to add to the department of 8 inspectors. Most of the inspectors I had were from different companies with different skill levels. Some had training or promoted from within. After reviewing some 40 resumes, I selected an individual with all the paper you can ask for. If you saw the Society this and the credits that, group memberships, blah blah blah, you know that this person had an agenda and it wasn't to be an Inspector. But, he did apply for the position. So, not being the type who discards a resume because it's better than mine, by some estimations, I hired him. I felt, hey bring it on-let's see what you got!
Well, he lasted 4 hours. The shortest time ever for a new employee. A new company record.The other department supervisors chided me for "drumming" him out. No way would I do that. It went just like this:
He was given a blueprint, 50+ parts, (of which he only had to inspect a sample of 13). That was all. He asked me "what should I inspect?" I said "the part." He said "what on the part". I said "all the dimensions shown on the blueprint”. He said, “Where’s my checklist?” I said, “we don’t use a checklist for machined parts.” ( We purchased these parts and had a c of c and Chems/ Phys). “Just check off the attributes on the drawing and it becomes our record along with an Inspection Report.”
After about 2 hours he came to my office and quit. His reason? “I can’t work under this kind of system.” I explained nicely that “we aren’t going to hold your hand. You were hired because you professed to have the needed skills”, as evidenced by those “certificates” that were bursting his briefcase. (This system was under strict DOD scrutiny 8 hours a day-40 hours a week because we had a resident Govt QAR who was there all day nosing around into everything. This system had survived many DOD Audits, from special teams, where they went into every facet of your business including Inspection practices.) The system manufactured was Life Support for Submarines crews.
So he took his paper, his tie and his attitude somewhere else. I hired an Inspector with a machinist background and he worked out just fine. In fact, he’s still there. Since that day I have selected employees who did not deluge me with their certificates, rather they possessed experience in the area that needs staffing. To remain they must demonstrate a solid work ethic. If they want to go to classes to advance their careers, go for it. Company pays for it.
Potential employers who are impressed by the “fluff”, generally, are not hands on Managers and do not have a clue what Quality is. To them, it amounts to a framed “Certificate” on a wall in their reception areas.
This post is not intended to demean the efforts of hard working people looking to really learn something.


:confused:

I have been member of ASQ for about 7 years now. The main reason I joined was for information on standards. They are a good info source. My section 0915, also do a great job on their programs. I do feel that the certifications are a source of money making. Not only in the refresher classes and the exam, but the required courses. Although, they have attempted to help out the poor folk of recent. In my opnion the test should be real time not the way a group at ASQ says and the test should be developed by knowledgable persons besides only ASQ persons. As far as increased wage, I do not feel at present it helps that much. Although I feel it does give you a slight advantage. It is all of our responsibility to continue our education whether it be thru certification process of ASQ or on our own thru seminars,reading,networking,etc.

Management has directed me to become a member of ASQ. Do you need a sponsor? $$$? I'm sure there are ASQ Members who frequent this site. I wonder if I have to wear a tie:vfunny: :smokin:

Nope - you don't need a sponsor. Just around US$100. You can do it right on their site if I'm not mistaken.

Join it!!

I'm a member even though I'm don't hold any Quality type certs. I use it as a networking tool.

It paid off by my meeting a guy on a conversation thread who offered me an Adjunct Faculty position and to provide training and consulting services in the Mid-West.

Great contract and business potential for me;)

That would be great. All I need now is your credit card numbers:biglaugh: Thanks:smokin:

No tie -- I don't believe a sponser is a MUST have - but the appliction dies require that you have a semi-provable (historical) background in Quality :bigwave:

Sponsers (if you have one) get continuing education units (CEU's)
CQE's need to have xx number of CEU's in as i remember each 3 year period - so they do not need to "retest"

Check with your local section but I don't think Asq membership alone require's that you take classes or sit for examination board testing.

Check out www.asq.org for current info.

Originally posted by energy
Management has directed me to become a member of ASQ. Do you need a sponsor? $$$?

I wonder if I have to wear a tie:vfunny: :smokin:Yes, Energy you need a sponsor (no not really) and I will gladly let you pay me to sponsor you. Not really, just kidding any schmuck can join, they let me in.

As far as if you have to wear a tie, not only do you have to wear a tie but you also are required :vfunny: to wear a three piece suit. Once again kidding, I just hope the Chapter you join does a better job of informing you when meetings are held.
:bonk:

Originally posted by Randy

It paid off by my meeting a guy on a conversation thread who offered me an Adjunct Faculty position and to provide training and consulting services in the Mid-West.If the conversation thread was here, send me my 10%! :thedeal:

There is one downside to ASQ membership. Every year I get in trouble when I show my boss the salary survey data. He keeps mumbling something like all the folks they tend to survey are actually worth what they are paid! I just don’t quite know how to take that statement.

Dave B (the other Dave)
:frust: :vfunny:

Originally posted by db
There is one downside to ASQ membership. Every year I get in trouble when I show my boss the salary survey data. He keeps mumbling something like all the folks they tend to survey are actually worth what they are paid! I just don’t quite know how to take that statement.

Dave B (the other Dave)
:frust: :vfunny:I just received my copy yesterday... all I gotta say is... **** I'm underpaid!!! Depending upon what table you look at - between $8,000 to $25,000 per year. I'm sure my boss will be more than happy to pony-up the dough to correct this obvious and egregeous oversight... :ko:

Anyone believe that - I've got ocean front property for sale, cheap. Location: Phoenix.

Cheers!!!

Originally posted by Michael T
I just received my copy yesterday... all I gotta say is... **** I'm underpaid!!! Depending upon what table you look at - between $8,000 to $25,000 per year. I'm sure my boss will be more than happy to pony-up the dough to correct this obvious and egregeous oversight... :ko:
Cheers!!!Same here, I look at the table and get very depressed :( , I am 'underpaid' by ~ 20-25k a year. I made the mistake of mentioning it once and all **** broke loose. I have since learned to 'loose' that issue of the magazine when it arrives. I really do enjoy working where I am, I just wish they would pay more.

Originally posted by ISO GUY
I just hope the Chapter you join does a better job of informing you when meetings are held.
:bonk:ISO Guy - what meetings can't you find out about? There's an executive committee meeting tonite - dinner meeting notices get sent all the time. I think everything is on the website.

We can go off line, but I thought I'd defend our chapter here.

AS far as the salary survey goes - maybe we should all fill it out next time, and lower the average. Then we won't feel so bad....
Anymore, we should be lucky to have jobs - eh?

Originally posted by ISO GUY
Same here, I look at the table and get very depressed :( , I am 'underpaid' by ~ 20-25k a year. I made the mistake of mentioning it once and all **** broke loose. I have since learned to 'loose' that issue of the magazine when it arrives. I really do enjoy working where I am, I just wish they would pay more.Agreed. I'm not about to broach the subject but I'll make sure that this issue manages to find its way to those who make those decisions... ;)

What I want to know is where ASQ found all these high paid people... simple logic says for every one of me, there has gotta be someone making $100,000+ in order to reach those average salaries. :bonk: :frust: :truce:

Originally posted by Laura M
ISO Guy - what meetings can't you find out about? There's an executive committee meeting tonite - dinner meeting notices get sent all the time. I think everything is on the website.Laura,
I am sorry I should have clarified. I am a member of the Syracuse Section not the Rochester.

www.aqs.org

Enter in all the pertinent information. Hard questions like a menu that says select the description that most matches your position. A toughy. Send $82.00 via Marc's credit card and Blam, you're a member!:ko: And you get a magazine:vfunny: wowee. That's all there is to it. Some more "perceptions" as to the requirements involved.:bonk: :smokin:

I guess the part I filled out for Consultants and EMS Lead auditors helped to raise the average some;)

Ok Randy - after all this time of wondering where their curves came from "YOU'RE THE ONE". ;)

I have found for the last 5-8 years my income was shown In Q progress about 15K less than the average Area income - never made a big deal of it though cause we have very large companies in the area with very volitale emloyment schemes (90 days hired for fairly high wages then Gone - etc)

And to go along with that many of the "expierienced folks" have officially "retired" and gone back to their place of employment within a week or two as a temporary worker (a way of what I'm told the government calls double dipping)

I really do wonder where they get some of those numbers from... To be honest, there is so much information in the ASQC 'salary survey' that it's confusing. Zxzzxzzzzzzzzit! Information Overload! :thedeal:

This illustrates the ASQ's lack of 'Quality' within the organization. My experience today, along with the fact that their forums are vintage 1996 perl scripts (that's about 6 years ago, folks) and virtually unusable (speed - slow as 50 weight motor oil, function - like printing an entire thread requires opening and printing each post individually, etc.), really depressed me.

Today I found a link on the Phoenix section's site - http://www.asq-0704.org/ - to the Cove forums. I tried two links to report the borken link - and of course both links were 'dead'. Then, I went to the ASQ web site to ask if they cared - figuring the national might want to keep local chapters 'on track' with accurate web sites (accurate e-mail links, etc). So..... The link on the national web site gave an e-mail address of cs@asq.org - So, I send a copy to it (after 2 deal links from the Phoenix chapter's site) - and the ASQ's e-mail bounces! Another dead link!

With all the talk of quality, customer satisfaction, meeting customer expectations and such, the ASQ continues to fail its members.

Should the ASQ be doing more to keep up with the times?

The evidence:

************* snippo **************
The original message was received at Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:54:31 -0500 (EST)
from nr13-216-68-202-40.fuse.net [216.68.202.40]

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cs@asq.org
(reason: 550 cs@asq.org: Recipient address rejected: Access denied)

----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to mail.iplt.twtelecom.net.:
>>> RCPT To: cs@asq.org
<<< 550 cs@asq.org: Recipient address rejected: Access denied
550 5.1.1 cs@asq.org... User unknown

From: Marc Smith
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:54:30 -0500
To: cs@asq.org
Subject: FW: Returned mail: see transcript for details

I don't know if you folks are interested in whether sections are keeping
links and such (e-mail address contacts, etc.) up to date, but in case you
are...
----------
> From: MAILER-DAEMON(Mail Delivery Subsystem)
> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:42:19 -0500 (EST)
> To: Marc
> Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details
>
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:42:13 -0500 (EST)
> from nr13-216-68-202-40.fuse.net [216.68.202.40]
>
> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> asq-0704@asq-0704.org
>
> ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> 550 5.1.2 asq-0704@asq-0704.org... Host unknown (Unknown error: 275)
>
> From: Marc Smith
> Date: Tuesday, April 2, 2002 2:42 PM
> To: asq-0704@asq-0704.org
> Subject: FW: Returned mail: see transcript for details
> ----------
>> From: MAILER-DAEMON (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
>> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:50:45 -0500 (EST)
>> To: Marc
>> Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details
>>
>> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:50:45 -0500 (EST)
>> from nr13-216-68-202-40.fuse.net [216.68.202.40]
>>
>> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
>> c-mccammon@home.com
>>
>> ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>> 550 5.1.2 c-mccammon@home.com... Host unknown (Unknown error: 275)
>>
>> From: Marc Smith
>> Date: Tuesday, April 2, 2002 1:50 PM
>> To: c-mccammon@home.com
>> Subject: ASQ Quality Links
>>
>> Just an FYI:
>>
>> On the Phoenix ASQ Section page at http://www.asq-0704.org/qualinks.htm you
>> have the Cove Forums listed as being at qs9000.com
>> The current address is http://Elsmar.com/Forums/