In one of our audit, we got a observation from a auditor stated as below:

Audit Area : Business Development

Audit Finding : " Minutes of Bi-weekly Sales Plan Reivew meeting with the directors are not documented and no evidence is available for the conductance of the meeting and also,communication process is not appropriate in this area". Also, he recommended to minute since the meeting may contain the source for corrective actions and review on the sale plan which is a input element for management review meeting" ( ISO Standard Clause.5.5.3 Internal Communication; 5.6.2 Review Input (c) Process Performance ;7.2.2(c) Reivew of requirements related to the product & 4.2.4Records of the review and actions arising from the reivew shall be maintained

Auditee Explanation : "Procedure says that to conduct meeting not to minute it" and also we have a plan for the meeting and we dont think it is necessary to minute it".

I am representing here as an auditee, so..

Could you please explain me about the auditors observation? Whether I have to maintain the minutes of meeting or not?

Hi Suresh,

1. What does your procedure says about the 'Review output (ISO9001:2000 - 5.6.3)'?

2. If not as minutes, are you recording these outputs in any other manner?

3. How do you communicate and to whom, the Review outputs?

4. How do you carry out the decisions taken in the management review?

5. How do you review the follow-up actions from previous management review in the absence of any such record, wether minutes, or any other? (ISO9001:2000 - 5.6.2 e)

6. How are you recording your Management Review? (ISO9001:2000 - 5.6.1)

Hi Suresh,

1. What does your procedure says about the 'Review output (ISO9001:2000 - 5.6.3)'?

2. If not as minutes, are you recording these outputs in any other manner?

3. How do you communicate and to whom, the Review outputs?

4. How do you carry out the decisions taken in the management review?

5. How do you review the follow-up actions from previous management review in the absence of any such record, wether minutes, or any other? (ISO9001:2000 - 5.6.2 e)

6. How are you recording your Management Review? (ISO9001:2000 - 5.6.1)


Hi Parag,

Let me give some more additional information on the auditors point of view,

" Auditor says one of the business development department's quality objective is to monitor and reivew the sales targets every week , and every two weeks as per procedure we have to do business plan review meeting with the top managemnt. From his point of view he is saying this is audit criteria.
Our Procedure Statement here as follows
" The Business Development Department (Corporate) shall organize bi-weekly
Strategic Sales Plan Review Meeting to review Submitted, under estimation tenders and potential projects to come. The attendees to this meeting shall be the Business Development Steering Committee, COOs and Operation Managers."

And also, he is clearly saying as per ISO Standard 7.2.2 (C) this meeting is discussing on the ability of the organisation to meet the defined requirements which i have underlined above like discussion on tenders and potential projects" and the results of review should be documented.So, he is saying that non-fulfullment of requirement of the standard

For your questions?

1. Review Output is not addressing the business sales plan reivew meeting but the quality objectives of all process areas.
2. Sales plan reivew meeting with the top management is not recorded anywhere..
3. No formall communication but verbal discussion in person but no evidence for the attendance list of the participants or meeting conducted as per plan
4.5. and 6.
We wont discuss all these sales plan discrepancies in the MRM meeting but only internal audit issues and process performance issues found due to the internal audit and main agenda in the MRM is internal audit findings,quality objectives,process performance and product conformity.

I hope I answered your questions..

Meetings may have some important outcomes and these must be recorded to ensure further reference and implementation, thus also minimizing repeat discussions of the same issues.

When you review anything, in your case, the submitted, under estimation tenders and potential projects, you may reach certain decisions / conclusions,
- for the submitted ones you may pass them as 'ok', or may have a learning from them to improve in under estimation and potential projects,
- for under estimation tenders - you may like to review them against the learnings from the past and as per 7.2.2(c),
- for potential projects - you may like to review them as per 7.2.2 (c) and also to ensure that you do not repeat any undesirable issues,
among others.

What happens if one of your participants in such meetings are replaced by a new member after the meeting? How does he come to know of these decisions and implement them in under estimation tenders and particularly preparing for potential projects? or, If somebody deviates from the decisions taken in such meeting having an impact on future considerations?

In my opinion your auditor has a valid finding. Let us get some more opinions on this.

I tend to agree with Parag and feel that the auditor stand is correct.

Our Procedure Statement here as follows
" The Business Development Department (Corporate) shall organize bi-weekly
Strategic Sales Plan Review Meeting to review Submitted, under estimation tenders and potential projects to come. The attendees to this meeting shall be the Business Development Steering Committee, COOs and Operation Managers."

I think you had literally painted yourself into a corner. Don't you think a monthly meeting will suffice? One where everybody come prepared with a simple report or analysis. Usually the purpose of such meetings are to review pricing strategies to bring it nearer to market realities and if not documented, it defeats the purpose and any lessons learnt.

The present version of ISO 9001 is a demonstration based standard rather than a documentation based one. Is this your only method of reviewing your capability prior to various levels of commitment to customer? Most likely not. Apex level meetings are normally formalities for 'strategic planning' than for reviewing the nitty gritty. If I am correct, you would be doing your reviews at lower functioning levels and keeping a record of it too. Show it and close the matter. You fulfil the requirements of the standard.

If not, your auditor is correct on 7.2.2

On other issues your auditor's findings dont stand. :nope:

This meeting is not an MRM. Just forget 5.6.xx

The standard does not say that minutes will be maintained, nor does your procedure. Other records can demonstrate compliance to 7.2.2

"Internal communication is not appropriate" :frust: Just ask our friend to justify his observation. Let him jump through the hoops for a change than your doing it as always. Play dumb. Maintain that you will implement any improvements once you understand what is wrong with the existing system.

If he wants to write an observation regarding communication, accept it and assure him that you will consider it. Dont accept any NC unless it clearly states what exactly was observed and what clause / procedure stating what is getting violated by it.