Dear Experts,‎

Need your clarification ‎

‎1- What is the difference between Record and Quality Record? ‎:bonk:

‎2- Our New Management would like to completely change the current Quality Management ‎System ISO 9001:2000 and reduce the number of quality records that approved by the old ‎management?‎:confused:

Example – in purchasing we have quality records such as Purchase Request and Purchase ‎Order.‎

Now we would like to control only Purchase order, but we have more stocks of the purchase ‎requests which have quality record number on them.‎

If our management approves the Purchase order as a quality record, what about the purchase ‎request? How we will indicate it in the manual? :bonk:‎
‎ ‎
Thanks ‎:bonk:

The term 'quality record' does not appear in ISO 9001 anymore - it used to in earlier versions but no longer.

Records are the evidence we keep of having done something - whether they are specified by our QMS or whatever.

There are any number of times where ISO 9001 states that records must be retained, other than that, it is up to you to decide which records you keep.

The term 'quality record' does not appear in ISO 9001 anymore - it used to in earlier versions but no longer.

Records are the evidence we keep of having done something - whether they are specified by our QMS or whatever.

There are any number of times where ISO 9001 states that records must be retained, other than that, it is up to you to decide which records you keep.

Just to add some information to this post:

A record is defined as a form that has information in-bedded/written in it. Once a blank form gets information added to it, it becomes a Record, in my opinion.

Just to add some information to this post:

A record is defined as a form that has information in-bedded/written in it. Once a blank form gets information added to it, it becomes a Record, in my opinion.

I mostly agree but something like a delivery note is not one of your forms but is normally kept as a record.

There is some definitions here - AS9100 Quality Record - 4.2.4 simply states Records, not Quality Records (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=66086&postcount=3)

Example – in purchasing we have quality records such as Purchase Request and Purchase ‎Order.‎

Now we would like to control only Purchase order, but we have more stocks of the purchase ‎requests which have quality record number on them.‎

If our management approves the Purchase order as a quality record, what about the purchase ‎request? How we will indicate it in the manual? ‎

Purchase request - asking the purchasing department to bring in supplies/service/etc.

Purchase order - the actual transaction document.

I think controlling the request as a record is overkill and your purchase order should serve to fulfill the requirements of the standard.

I would not even address the request form in your manual.

Just to add some information to this post:

A record is defined as a form that has information in-bedded/written in it. Once a blank form gets information added to it, it becomes a Record, in my opinion.This is not strictly true. The RECORD is the data about an accomplished activity (including a completed document or form), regardless of the media (paper, electronic, chiseled in stone, etc.) In fact, the bulk of records throughout history are not "filled-in forms," but are either lists of data (think of a counter on a machine, recording the number of strokes) or written [or oral, in the case of societies BEFORE writing, or gleaned from other evidence - artwork, broken pottery,tombs, fossils, etc.] narratives of what transpired (think of history books as records.)

ON TOPIC:
Any organization has the right to maintain records of its choosing (or to NOT keep records), but that right is modified by statutory or regulatory requirements, customer contracts, and other outside influences.

The primary purpose of most records in a business organization is to fulfill those outside requirements, but many organizations keep other records to use as a benchmark to note progression or regression of the economic fortunes of the business and to use in evaluating future courses of action based on how past actions turned out.

Therefore, one of the reasons an organization might keep purchase requests is to compare with other requests to determine if future requests might be consolidated for better pricing. Other reasons might be to compare response time, etc. Strictly speaking, this IS strictly an internal reason and I know of no outside requirements to maintain such records.

Dear Experts,‎

Need your clarification ‎

‎1- What is the difference between Record and Quality Record? ‎:bonk:

‎2- Our New Management would like to completely change the current Quality Management ‎System ISO 9001:2000 and reduce the number of quality records that approved by the old ‎management?‎:confused:

Example – in purchasing we have quality records such as Purchase Request and Purchase ‎Order.‎

Now we would like to control only Purchase order, but we have more stocks of the purchase ‎requests which have quality record number on them.‎

If our management approves the Purchase order as a quality record, what about the purchase ‎request? How we will indicate it in the manual? :bonk:‎


It sounds as though your new management is on the right track with wanting to change the system and reduce the number of documents. If you have one of those very bureaucratic systems that are absolutely full of forms with Quality Record plastered all over the place, and then lists of Quality Records... etc etc.

Focus on what records are required (and pay attention to what Wes said, because he's absolutely right on in his description of what a record is - records are NOT only forms!!) and work out what control they need.

Your question that makes reference to 'the manual' I can't even begin to answer, because I really don't know what you are referring to. You'd have to provide clearer information to explain what your question actually means.

How would your management expect to prove that you have met the requirements of 7.4.1 & 7.4.2 without a record?


7.4.1 Purchasing process
The organization shall ensure that purchased product conforms to specified purchase requirements.

7.4.2 Purchasing information
Purchasing information shall describe the product to be purchased, including where appropriate
a) requirements for approval of product, procedures, processes and equipment,
b) requirements for qualification of personnel, and
c) quality management system requirements.

The organization shall ensure the adequacy of specified purchase requirements prior to their communication to the supplier.

Here are some definitions that are not negotiable....

ISO 9001:2000
4.2.4 Control of records
Records shall be established and maintained to provide evidence of conformity to requirements and of the effective operation of the quality management system.

ISO 9000:2005
3.7.6 record
document (3.7.2) stating results achieved or providing evidence of activities performed

3.7.2 document
information (3.7.1) and its supporting medium

3.7.1 information
meaningful data

Also not negotiable are the references in the ISO 9001:2000 where it states you need to retain records. Look for every place in the standard where you see (4.2.4). At a minimum you need to keep those records.

Your question that makes reference to 'the manual' I can't even begin to answer, because I really don't know what you are referring to. You'd have to provide clearer information to explain what your question actually means.

Dear Jane B

‎1-‎I mean when the procedure describes the process of requesting materials form ‎purchasing department, is it necessary to indicate the (purchase request form) as an evidence to ‎perform such activity? If yes, should I identify the form and control it as quality record?‎ :bonk:

‎2-‎Should I refer form for each activity to ensure that the activity is implemented?‎ if yes, how the forms will be controled ?:bonk:

‎1-‎I mean when the procedure describes the process of requesting materials form ‎purchasing department, is it necessary to indicate the (purchase request form) as an evidence to ‎perform such activity? If yes, should I identify the form and control it as quality record?‎ :bonk:

Yes it is, in accordance with your established purchasing procedure… and yes, you have to identify the form and control it is as quality record…

‎2-‎Should I refer form for each activity to ensure that the activity is implemented?‎ if yes, how the forms will be controled ?:bonk:

...not necessary… but the safest way is, of course, to identify them all in your procedures… keep in mind that you have to meet the minimum requirements of ISO… if you go beyond that, it is not against the standards…

…I have seen so many organization that keeps records more than what ISO required… simply because, they are significant records on their operational needs… this is what you have to focus more…

...and last, controlling them should be in accordance with your established document and record control procedure...

Dear Jane B

‎1-‎I mean when the procedure describes the process of requesting materials form ‎purchasing department, is it necessary to indicate the (purchase request form) as an evidence to ‎perform such activity? If yes, should I identify the form and control it as quality record?‎ :bonk::

If you have a documented procedure, then you'd want to reference the purchase request form in it, wouldn't you? Otherwise, how would anyone know they had to use it? (Note I'm saying 'if' because you don't have to have a documented purchasing procedure, contrary to many people's understanding. You write a procedure for this area only if you decide you need one. Now, if you have the PR form, and if it's completed as part of the procedure, then yes, I imagine it's a record out of that procedure. (Dump the term 'quality record' and just use 'record', by the way.)

BUT this is your call (ie, your decision) as an organisation. The key question is: how does purchasing know what to buy, what the specs and important info is?

If, for example, someone may pass along a note/bit of scribbled paper to purchasing saying 'need 20m of X grade steel or even tells them verbally, or emails that info, and IF that works OK in your organisation and doesn't cause any problems or hiccups (like purchasing not getting the right info they need to do the buying), then you probably don't need a PR form.

‎2-‎Should I refer form for each activity to ensure that the activity is implemented?‎ if yes, how the forms will be controled ?:bonk:

Sorry, don't entirely understand what you mean here about 'for each activity'...

As to how to control forms, there's many different ways. Do a bit of search on document control to find various ways - manual, electronic, etc.