Dear Forum,

I am currently setting up a checklist for compliance to a particular standard (EN 60601-2-xx). In the checklist I write the requirement (often exactly as written in the standard) with information on how compliance is achieved.

The final version of this checklist might well be distributed to our customers on request.

Is such a checklist violating any copyrights? Do I need to completely rewrite the requirements from the standard? (or simply censor the text when distributing it)


regards
t.

Dear Forum,

I am currently setting up a checklist for compliance to a particular standard (EN 60601-2-xx). In the checklist I write the requirement (often exactly as written in the standard) with information on how compliance is achieved.

The final version of this checklist might well be distributed to our customers on request.

Is such a checklist violating any copyrights? Do I need to completely rewrite the requirements from the standard? (or simply censor the text when distributing it)

regards
t.

Good question temujin :agree1:

I donot have the answer but have seen many checklists that copy the entire portion of the standard in one column, proposed questions against the standard requirements in the second column and observations in the third column.

Thus in the above example, the entire standard is there in bits and pieces. :cool:

Very good question!! The solution is usually to just refer to relevant paragraphs and then expect the receiver to acquire their own copy. :bigwave:

Dear Forum,

I am currently setting up a checklist for compliance to a particular standard (EN 60601-2-xx). In the checklist I write the requirement (often exactly as written in the standard) with information on how compliance is achieved.

The final version of this checklist might well be distributed to our customers on request.

Is such a checklist violating any copyrights? Do I need to completely rewrite the requirements from the standard? (or simply censor the text when distributing it)


regards
t.

In general the Cove isn't a good place to seek legal advice, but in this case I don't think there's much of a problem with what you're doing. It's very common, and I doubt that the copyright owner would object to the use of the standard in the way you're using it. In the US, we have what's known as the doctrine of "fair use," but here's what the US Copyright Office (http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html) says about it:

The distinction between “fair use” and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.

Nonetheless, your use of the standard is commonplace and not worth being concerned about, imo. If you're really worried about it, consult a lawyer who's familar with international and local copyright laws.

Very good question, an eye opener and debatable. I am really curious to see the outcome of ensuing debate. :argue:
You have touched upon a hornet's nest.

Quality toughnut :rolleyes:

Who knows, maybe we have visitors from e.g. ISO or ASTM who can clarify this for us?? :o

Very good question, an eye opener and debatable. I am really curious to see the outcome of ensuing debate. :argue:
You have touched upon a hornet's nest.


I don't think so. In the end, in most cases, infringement has to result in harm (loss of revenue, e.g.) to the copyright owner, at least in the US. What the OP is doing is far different from making and distributing complete copies of the standard.

In a recent case in the US, a filmmaker used about 15 seconds or so of John Lennon's "Imagine" without getting prior permission, and Yoko Ono sued. A New York court found in favor of the defendants and ruled that the use of the clip constituted fair use, despite the fact that the clip was used for commercial purposes.

In the end, the courts decide what's fair use and what isn't, but the idea of a copyright holder suing a company for quoting its standard in work documents just silly (IMO).

Will the receivers/users of the checklist, by the nature of the work they're doing, also be obtaining a copy of the standard itself to provide deeper support for their use of the checklist?

If so, the creation of the checklist would not be diminishing sales and clearly there would be no infringement.

That's not to imply that the opposite circumstance applies, though.

NOTE: I'm certainly not a lawyer, or an expert on the subject.

I am under the impression that copyright on standards is centered more around a financial issue, than an intellectual issue. If everyone just copies the standards, it is not worth their time (financially) to develop the standard and do all the other work along with it.

First, hopefully you have purchased a copy of the standard. I would imagine somewhere there is a use/copyright statement that may give you your answer. Also, that would show you have the document in good faith, and have compensated the authors for the document. Next, I would always give credit to the source of the information. Third, if you could change even a couple of words on each line, then you have not copied verbatim, but copied the ideas within the document (which you give citation).

All else fails, you could contact a copyright lawyer, and/or the authors of the standard for a definitive answer.

If the organization purchases a copy of the standard legally, and even if they use direct quotes from the standard, I don't think they are in conflict with any copyright laws if what they do is not for profit or resale. I could be wrong, been wrong a time or two in the past.

Bob Bonville

Have a look at this recent post (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=268001#post268001) by Wes Bucey, where he describes doing pretty much the same the OP is asking about. It's common practice, and nothing to worry about.

If the organization purchases a copy of the standard legally, and even if they use direct quotes from the standard, I don't think they are in conflict with any copyright laws if what they do is not for profit or resale. I could be wrong, been wrong a time or two in the past.

Bob BonvilleI agree with this. Copyright's intention is to limit the unauthorized piggyback riding of intellectual property (ownership), to help avoid loss of benefit (control pirating) and to help preserve accuracy (integrity).

I'm not a lawyer either, but my understanding of copyright is that if you legally own a copy of a tool, you can apply that tool (like a standard broken down into checklist questions) internally as long as you refrain from distributing to people who are also expected to buy their own copies.
:2cents:
You might simply ask the document's owner: the standard's governing body. They might even have a FAQ site with an answer already.

the ISO standard footnote
"All rights reserved. Unless otherwise specified, no part of this publication may be reproduced or utilized in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying and microfilm, without permission in writing from either ISO at the address below or ISO's member body in the country of the requester".

therefore it seems clear no part may be reproduced/copied :bonk:
some "ISO's member bodies" even state no partial copy.

But if the intent of a standard is to standardize "words, reference tables, definitions, procedures" it is useless if I can not copy/use the "standard" statements, isn't it?

A suggestion was to just use references without statements:
I don't like customers who make a report, a questionaire or a drawing full of references to standards (may be their own standard or country standards). I can not buy and translate all the world standards and check for every updating. There are only few very important standards and I aspect all my suppliers and customers known them

One point was that we don't cause a money loss or diminishing sales.
Someone may argue that we are working for the profit of our company and we are using "their" standard to get profit and if we use just a reference they will sell more copies.

Another point was an example from New York Court.
If I remember New Your was the only state in US, and may be in the world, that declares public images/facts etc (sorry the song was "imagine") can not be copyrighted.

At the my modest opinion.
First "status quo": so many companies / entities are using "standard" statements / tables etc without copyright issue/persecutions by the "standards" organization that it is allowed the normal use to copy statements inside company own documents if it is clear that the original document has got more and relevant informations.
Second my hope: standards as knowledge should be free.

sorry if I hurt somebody, it was not my intent:(

Dear Forum,

I am currently setting up a checklist for compliance to a particular standard (EN 60601-2-xx). In the checklist I write the requirement (often exactly as written in the standard) with information on how compliance is achieved.

The final version of this checklist might well be distributed to our customers on request.

Is such a checklist violating any copyrights? Do I need to completely rewrite the requirements from the standard? (or simply censor the text when distributing it)


regards
t.

I can't speak for the ISO 9000 standard, but with regard to the use of ISO/TS 16949, the AIAG (Automotive Industry Action Group) actually recommends the use of the standard in the way you appear to be using EN 60601-2-xx. On their website, they offer a tool called CQI-7T AIAG Process Identification Tool 95-2000 (see attachment below).

I have attached examples of how I have used this recommended format for interfacing the various standards into one Operating System...ISO/TS 16949, Customer-specific requirements, and ISO 14001.

It is very effective and efficient - You identify your key processes across the top, and the Standard requirements down the left, and you identify where each requirement impacts on your Operating System.

To create your Process Maps, you look down each column below the Process, and voila!... your checklist of things to make sure that you don't miss a requirement.

In the ISO 14001 attachment, you see how easy it is to integrate changes to the standard into your existing system...by adding and deleting text, and then making the required changes to the affected documents.

My personal crusade is to get the ISO organization and OEMs to release these documents in Excel format so that they don't have to be re-input to create these "evidence documents" (these matrices prove that you have integrated each requirement into your system, and as the AIAG suggests, should be given to your External Auditor at Stage 1 Audit).

I'm with you Jim...this particular usage is not copyright infringement...it's what's expected.

Patricia Ravanello

NOTE: I'm certainly not a lawyer, or an expert on the subject.

I am under the impression that copyright on standards is centered more around a financial issue, than an intellectual issue. If everyone just copies the standards, it is not worth their time (financially) to develop the standard and do all the other work along with it.

First, hopefully you have purchased a copy of the standard. I would imagine somewhere there is a use/copyright statement that may give you your answer. Also, that would show you have the document in good faith, and have compensated the authors for the document. Next, I would always give credit to the source of the information. Third, if you could change even a couple of words on each line, then you have not copied verbatim, but copied the ideas within the document (which you give citation).

All else fails, you could contact a copyright lawyer, and/or the authors of the standard for a definitive answer.
This statement "Third, if you could change even a couple of words on each line, then you have not copied verbatim, but copied the ideas within the document (which you give citation)." is not accurate.

If it were, folks could copy the Harry Potter books and merely change the names of the characters and places.

Jim Wynne probably has offered the most practical advice thus far.

For ABSOLUTE surety, contact the copyright holder directly, provide a tentative copy of what you propose and ask permission.

For clarity's sake, I DID contact the copyright holders of QS 9000 via phone in the item (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=268001#post268001) Jim Wynne mentions and was told then, "Of course! You don't need written permission to do that."

However, that was then and this is now. The copyright holders are different and intellectual property is a much bigger concern with the advent of the internet and the unlimited copying and downloading of web-based documents. Over a number of years, I distributed fewer than 250 copies of 500 printed and certainly posed no hazard to the income of the copyright holders, since printing my Self Assessment Manual on high quality glossy paper with color photographs made EACH cost more than the QS 9000 Standard on which it was based.

This statement "Third, if you could change even a couple of words on each line, then you have not copied verbatim, but copied the ideas within the document (which you give citation)." is not accurate.

If it were, folks could copy the Harry Potter books and merely change the names of the characters and places.




We're not talking about copying Harry Potter's book; we're talking about a standard. I'm saying that if you have a standard with a checklist, put the checklist in your own words. Any checklist should be adapted to the organization anyway. If a standards author did not want the checklist to be used, why did they put it in there? So to those writing standards... if you are offended by people using your checklist, don't make checklists!:tg:

But even the Harry Potter book analogy is somewhat weak. TV, movies and the like do it all the time. It's called Based on an adaptation of..... Yes, it still involves money. People want their money. If I bought the standard and made an adaptation from it, would a jury of my peers think I was wrong??

My rule... just make sure the right people get their money, and be intellectually honest.

Personally, I'll stand by the statement; As you for and your house... you can approach it however you wish. :D

For ABSOLUTE surety, contact the copyright holder directly, provide a tentative copy of what you propose and ask permission.



Let me save you the time.... "Unfortunately, no". :lol: Maybe... you can include a check and get a different answer.:)

Very good question, an eye opener and debatable. I am really curious to see the outcome of ensuing debate. :argue:
You have touched upon a hornet's nest.

Quality toughnut :rolleyes:

I don't think so. In the end, in most cases, infringement has to result in harm (loss of revenue, e.g.) to the copyright owner, at least in the US. What the OP is doing is far different from making and distributing complete copies of the standard.

In a recent case in the US, a filmmaker used about 15 seconds or so of John Lennon's "Imagine" without getting prior permission, and Yoko Ono sued. A New York court found in favor of the defendants and ruled that the use of the clip constituted fair use, despite the fact that the clip was used for commercial purposes.

In the end, the courts decide what's fair use and what isn't, but the idea of a copyright holder suing a company for quoting its standard in work documents just silly (IMO).

Excuse me sir, I am not able to comprehend your response to my post. :confused: I have said:

1. "A very good question". I am praising the OP here. Do you think otherwise?
2. "An eye opener". To most IMO, since this question seldom nags the mind of the copier, at the time of copying; as to how much can he copy without infringing the copyright. Are you not with me on this?
3. Last but not the least "Debatable". The ensuing debate is bringing out very fine responses from esteemed covers, yours inclusive!

With due respect to your comment, I will be obliged if you may shed more light on this, since I am new here and have a burning desire to learn.

Excuse me sir, I am not able to comprehend your response to my post. :confused: I have said:

1. "A very good question". I am praising the OP here. Do you think otherwise?
2. "An eye opener". To most IMO, since this question seldom nags the mind of the copier, at the time of copying; as to how much can he copy without infringing the copyright. Are you not with me on this?
3. Last but not the least "Debatable". The ensuing debate is bringing out very fine responses from esteemed covers, yours inclusive!

With due respect to your comment, I will be obliged if you may shed more light on this, since I am new here and have a burning desire to learn.

No offense intended; I just meant that I didn't think it was substantially debatable. Copying out clauses of the standard for different purposes is common practice, and necessary in some instances. For example, when an auditor finds a nonconforming condition, we expect her to quote the relevant clause of the standard in explaining the problem.

Dear Forum,

I am currently setting up a checklist for compliance to a particular standard (EN 60601-2-xx). In the checklist I write the requirement (often exactly as written in the standard) with information on how compliance is achieved.

The final version of this checklist might well be distributed to our customers on request.

Is such a checklist violating any copyrights? Do I need to completely rewrite the requirements from the standard? (or simply censor the text when distributing it)

regards
t.

In my humble opinion, the text of the standard is a public document and was created for the purpose of being used and worked with throughout implementations of the standard. As such, the authors must have assumed that it will be used by copying and referencing. But I am not a lawyer. In any case, the standardization body usually provides email address where you can ask. I am sure there is some email on iso.org, where you can ask questions in case you are not sure about copyright. Try asking them and let us know.

Cheers!

...the text of the standard is a public document and was created for the purpose of being used and worked with throughout implementations of the standard. As such, the authors must have assumed that it will be used by copying and referencing.

The highlighting above is mine, not the original author's.

I recommend that anyone working in a corporate environment within the US legal system with access to a corporate intellectual property lawyer, and wanting to minimize their corporate risk of intellectual property lawsuit, check with their IP lawyer before following the quoted approach...because it's not a valid interpretation of US copyright law.

In my humble opinion, the text of the standard is a public document and was created for the purpose of being used and worked with throughout implementations of the standard. As such, the authors must have assumed that it will be used by copying and referencing. But I am not a lawyer. In any case, the standardization body usually provides email address where you can ask. I am sure there is some email on iso.org, where you can ask questions in case you are not sure about copyright. Try asking them and let us know.

Cheers!



Dear xjessie007,

I would have agreed with your comments prior to the following...

Some time ago, I inquired directly, as you are suggesting, to the ISO organization regarding the use of the standard in a matrix, to establish the primary interface between the ISO Standard and our Business Operating System (B.O.S.) The attachment below illustrates one page of a sample which I forwarded to ISO for discussion purposes.

Following is an except from a response from Mr. N. Fleury from the ISO organization, clearly stating that this is not permitted.

Dear Madam,

Thank you for your email.

You can't reproduce the text of an ISO Standard as you described it, if it is not for your strict personal use. If the text reproduced is to be shared with other persons, in the context of a presentation for example or for circulation to other persons, internal or external to your company, then a formal permission is necessary. Also in some cases, copyright fees have to be paid.

In the case you need to obtain such permission, you can contact the ISO
member body in ...(your country)...etc.

Yours sincerely,

Nicolas Fleury (Mr.)
Director
Marketing and Communication

ISO Central Secretariat
1, ch. de la Voie-Creuse
P.O. Box 56
CH-1211 Geneva 20

I use this document for training, in presentations, and External Auditors use it as a roadmap to where the requirements interface with or where they impact on our system. So according to Mr. Fleury's response, I am in need of formal permission, and possibly would be required to pay a copyright fee.

Copyright is what it is. Obviously they can't police the world, but they do actively follow up on reports of copyright infractions and do exercise their rights.

Patricia Ravanello

Dear xjessie007,

I would have agreed with your comments prior to the following...

Some time ago, I inquired directly, as you are suggesting, to the ISO organization regarding the use of the standard in a matrix, to establish the primary interface between the ISO Standard and our Business Operating System (B.O.S.) The attachment below illustrates one page of a sample which I forwarded to ISO for discussion purposes.

Following is an except from a response from Mr. N. Fleury from the ISO organization, clearly stating that this is not permitted.

Dear Madam,

Thank you for your email.

You can't reproduce the text of an ISO Standard as you described it, if it is not for your strict personal use. If the text reproduced is to be shared with other persons, in the context of a presentation for example or for circulation to other persons, internal or external to your company, then a formal permission is necessary. Also in some cases, copyright fees have to be paid.

In the case you need to obtain such permission, you can contact the ISO
member body in ...(your country)...etc.

Yours sincerely,

Nicolas Fleury (Mr.)
Director
Marketing and Communication

ISO Central Secretariat
1, ch. de la Voie-Creuse
P.O. Box 56
CH-1211 Geneva 20

I use this document for training, in presentations, and External Auditors use it as a roadmap to where the requirements interface with or where they impact on our system. So according to Mr. Fleury's response, I am in need of formal permission, and possibly would be required to pay a copyright fee.

Copyright is what it is. Obviously they can't police the world, but they do actively follow up on reports of copyright infractions and do exercise their rights.

Patricia RavanelloSo . . .What was the date of this correspondence? Did you follow up as suggested In the case you need to obtain such permission, you can contact the ISO
member body in ...(your country)...etc.


If yes, what was the response? If no . . . why not?

Inquiring minds want to know!;)

The point we have made time and time again is that, regardless of the lip service ISO officials in Switzerland pay to International Copyright Protection, individual member countries seem to make up the rules as they go along. It would be interesting, but not ultimately profitable, to learn how each dollar spent on an "official copy" of an ISO Standard is split between ISO parent in Switzerland and the member body actually selling the Standard. If we purchase directly from Switzerland, does all the money stay in Switzerland or does some return to the country of the buyer? Before we let our tears flow for the ISO, it might be well to remember there is no public disclosure of the detailed finances of ISO in Switzerland and, even in the USA, the details of ASQ finances are not available to the public beyond the sparse info in the IRS Form 990 which not-for-profit organizations are required to file with the IRS as a document open to the public to maintain their not-for-profit status [read "their ability to avoid income tax."]