We recently have gone through our TS audit and the auditor was asking for a PPAP, we showed a level 1 PPAP to him. After looking it over he wanted to see the full PPAP, CP, FMEA, dimensionals etc. We told him that we did not have those for this PPAP due to it being a level 1 PPAP. He explained that every time a PPAP is done a full PPAP is required but you only send what the customer is wanting.

Is this correct, every time a PPAP is done, a full PPAP is done but you only send what the customer wants? Where is this stated in the TS manual? any help on this would be appreciated.

Is this correct, every time a PPAP is done, a full PPAP is done but you only send what the customer wants? Where is this stated in the TS manual? any help on this would be appreciated.
Hi, Haueyman -

Yes, this is correct. It does not state it in the TS manual - it is stated in the PPAP manual. I'm going from memory but I believe it is in section I.2 PPAP Process Requirements and says something like "The supplier shall have the applicable items and records listed below ... regardless of the part submission level."

I don't believe that ISO/TS 16949 actually requires any PPAP - it's a customer requirement. But I'm working from memory and it's been a while since I dealt with the standard.

Sounds like your auditor is working from their bias(es) rather than from requirements. Did you get them to show you were the requirement actually says this? It doesn't sound like they made it a 'recordable' issue (NC or similar) but it might be a 'warning shot' which will become an nc next visit......

Whatever, I'm sure one of our up-to-date TS folks here will add the detail we're looking for.

I don't believe that ISO/TS 16949 actually requires any PPAP - it's a customer requirement. But I'm working from memory and it's been a while since I dealt with the standard.

Sounds like your auditor is working from their bias(es) rather than from requirements. Did you get them to show you were the requirement actually says this? It doesn't sound like they made it a 'recordable' issue (NC or similar) but it might be a 'warning shot' which will become an nc next visit......

Whatever, I'm sure one of our up-to-date TS folks here will add the detail we're looking for.

Luckily it did not turn out to much no NC. I was not here due to a surgery so I am going from what was told to me.

I don't believe that ISO/TS 16949 actually requires any PPAP - it's a customer requirement. But I'm working from memory and it's been a while since I dealt with the standard.

Sounds like your auditor is working from their bias(es) rather than from requirements. Did you get them to show you were the requirement actually says this? It doesn't sound like they made it a 'recordable' issue (NC or similar) but it might be a 'warning shot' which will become an nc next visit......

Whatever, I'm sure one of our up-to-date TS folks here will add the detail we're looking for.

PPAP is required.

From ISO/TS 16949:2002:

7.3.6.3 Product approval process

The organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer.

NOTE Product approval should be subsequent to the verification of the manufacturing process.

This product and manufacturing process approval procedure shall also be applied to suppliers.

The PPAP manual provides the details.

The Customer determines the submission level.

You must have all PPAP items available, whether or not the Customer requires submission. (See PPAP for the specifics.)

Stijloor.

Thank you Stijloor, this is why I asked the question concerning this. I always know I can come here and find what I need.

Thank you Stijloor, this is why I asked the question concerning this. I always know I can come here and find what I need.

You're very welcome. Glad to help.

PPAP is required.

From ISO/TS 16949:2002:

7.3.6.3 Product approval process

The organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer.

NOTE Product approval should be subsequent to the verification of the manufacturing process.

This product and manufacturing process approval procedure shall also be applied to suppliers.

The PPAP manual provides the details.

The Customer determines the submission level.

You must have all PPAP items available, whether or not the Customer requires submission. (See PPAP for the specifics.)

Stijloor.

Also see 7.3.3.2 Manufacturing process design output :-
The manufacturing process design output shall include
- specifications and drawings,
- manufacturing process flow chart/layout,
- manufacturing process FMEAs,
- control plan (see 7.5.1.1),
- work instructions,
- process approval acceptance criteria,
- data for quality, reliability, maintainability and measurability,
- results of error-proofing activities, as appropriate, and
- methods of rapid detection and feedback of product/manufacturing process nonconformities.

Great to see someone else grappling with the same issues we do! We tend to do the same, submit what we have to and not thinking about what we don't have to submit.

It raises a good illustration how some elements are simply given lip service (I am by no means suggesting the OP pays lip-service to everything!!!), but we often see the requirements being fulfilled as a means of pacifying a customer rather than the thing in question (in this instance a PPAP), providing value!

In this instance, technically how can you submit a L1 PPAP (PSW and Appearance Approval), without the data to support that PSW? That supporting data will come from the rest of the PPAP items.

It could be argued that if the customer only wants a L1 PPAP (and therefore they trust supply chain follows the PPAP process and uses it to assure product conformance) why can we not do the same? However, if you actually make something and are not just a 3rd party in between manufacture and the customer, then TS does have clauses relating to certain elements of PPAP anyway, such as Control Plan, MSA, validation activities etc...

The auditor is correct and this has been a common finding ever since the QS-9000 days.

Remember that you don't have to create all new documents everytime. You can carry over pertinent records from previous submissions.

Remember that you don't have to create all new documents everytime. You can carry over pertinent records from previous submissions.

That's correct as long as they reflect "the current state of affairs."

Many PPAP documents are considered "living" documents and must represent the current state of the product/process.

Stijloor.

PPAP is required.

From ISO/TS 16949:2002:

7.3.6.3 Product approval process

The organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer.

NOTE Product approval should be subsequent to the verification of the manufacturing process.

This product and manufacturing process approval procedure shall also be applied to suppliers.

The PPAP manual provides the details.

The Customer determines the submission level.

You must have all PPAP items available, whether or not the Customer requires submission. (See PPAP for the specifics.)

Stijloor.

To be sure. TS does not require AIAG PPAP. It requires a product approval process. The CSR (such as Ford, published on the IATF / IAOB website) invokes the AIAG PPAP manual.

Any AIAG PPAP submission level requires you to do all the work. There is a table in the PPAP manual with R (retain) and S (submit) for the different levels. CSR usually defines the default PPAP level. Other submission level is only valid if you receive it in writing from your customer (authorized person, for example for Ford it is the STA).

TS allows another customer product approval process (such as VDA PPA).

To be sure. TS does not require AIAG PPAP. It requires a product approval process. The CSR (such as Ford, published on the IATF / IAOB website) invokes the AIAG PPAP manual.

Any AIAG PPAP submission level requires you to do all the work. There is a table in the PPAP manual with R (retain) and S (submit) for the different levels. CSR usually defines the default PPAP level. Other submission level is only valid if you receive it in writing from your customer (authorized person, for example for Ford it is the STA).

TS allows another customer product approval process (such as VDA PPA).

Kees,

I responded with the OP's situation in mind. I should have mentioned that.

Jan.

Kees,

I responded with the OP's situation in mind. I should have mentioned that.

Jan.

Jan,

I thought you did, but it might not have been understood by other readers.

Whew, I am glad Kales replied with that. I just had a meeting last week where I told people in MFG that they didn't have to do an AIAG PPAP to get ISO TS certified. In fact I told them if the customer requirements are not in the contract and specifically cite the AIAG requirements we don't have to follow them. Too many times we have are in full production and some smart butt supplier quality engineer shows up with a PHD degree (VDO), telling us we have to do PPAPs to the AIAG after the fact. I head straight to the contractual agreement, boy does that give off a frown. Luckily we have a monopoly on the patent...:D