In RE-reading TS 4.1, i see it states at the bottom:

NOTE Processes needed for the qms referred to above should include processes for management activities, provisions of resources, product realization and measurement

Should I take this to mean that we must have a process specifically for Management 'Activities'? Surely there is a secret decoder for that note that says i don't have to audit all Management Activities as a PROCESS!

I had planned to cover management/qms type requirements during the course of auditing our defined processes: Sales/Feasibility, Engineering, Production, Quality, and Resources, lumping anything missed into 'Quality'. This is for our internal audit. Interested to hear how everyone approaches this....

Should I take this to mean that we must have a process specifically for Management 'Activities'?From the N544 - Guidance on the Concept and Use of the Process Approach for management systems (http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/3554880/Process.doc?func=doc.Fetch&nodeid=3554880) document, we read:

- Processes for management of an organization. These include processes relating to strategic planning, establishing policies, setting objectives, providing communication, ensuring availability of resources needed and management reviews.

And the APG website offers How to audit top management processes (http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/3553985/APG-AuditTopManagement.doc?func=doc.Fetch&nodeid=3553985)

Thanks, Sidney.

So I don't see an actual requirement to have Management as a process, but it may be a natural fit (based on the ISO N544). I have an e-mail in to an external auditor asking his thoughts on it as well. I'm curious as to whether he wants to see management as a process.

To follow up, our one time external auditor (consultant) says YES, include Management Responsibility as a process, not because he thinks it necessarily necessary, but because he knows our external auditor and knows he will want to see it.

To follow up, our one time external auditor (consultant) says YES, include Management Responsibility as a process, not because he thinks it necessarily necessary, but because he knows our external auditor and knows he will want to see it.

That could be quite a challenge for you, since it ain't a process(!) Just because it is a label on the so-called "model" in ISO9001 doesn't make it one, nor does the fact that an auditor doesn't understand the concept.

I would disagree that management responsibility is an activity. There are several, many even, activities involved in management. But responsibility, by itself is not an activity.

I agree that management responsibility is not a process. But management activities are done with management processes. Look at the management review clause for example. Inputs -> review -> outputs - sounds like a process to me. Also note that the FDIS of ISO 9001:2008 changes the note under 4.1 to read:NOTE 1 Processes needed for the quality management system referred to above include processes for management activities, provision of resources, product realization and measurement, analysis and improvement.Notice that there is no "should" involved any longer...

This thread can easily derail, as many others, but I do believe that management can be treated and perceived as a process, with clear input, activities and output. One of the biggest challenges with that perspective is to establish competence requirements for management. Most organizations fail to keep management accountable to competence requirements. And, as many of us know, many organizational problems arise from the fact that incompetent people are "steering the wheel".

Well, thanks to all for the input. I've previously poured over the the threads and see how the opinions of processes vary. OH, how they vary! lol.

The fact that the word 'should' was removed further strengthens, in my mind, the need to include a process specific to management and how it operates.

I'll call it "Management Direction", not "responsibility" as everyone pointed out (and I agree). Management review will be the main activity (and whatever else I can shoehorn in from 5.-). Competence for management might be evaluated by our continued growth.? That's a good point. Considering we are a small company, and the person driving the bus (let's call them 'Otto') is also the customer of the internal audit, I don't think it such a great idea for me to seriously question Otto's competence. The fact that he got the bus drivers job and has kept it for a number of years has to be worth something! lol.

As you define the "management direction" process remember that Otto needs to listen to the traffic and weather reports to avoid getting the bus caught in a jam. A GPS system can be pretty useful too.

The GPS (a good business plan with clearly defined objectives and metrics) can help ensure that the bus is navigating to the right destination. The traffic report (market conditions, customer satisfaction information, etc.) will help to make sure the bus can make course adjustments as driving (business) conditions change. The weather reports (process metrics and internal audits) may alert the driver when to call in the snow plows (resources) to clear out some obstacles.

OK, maybe a hokey analogy. The main point is to ensure that management (leaders) are holding internal supplier processes accountable for inputs, so that they can provide the right outputs - decisions, actions, and resources.

What is the definition of the word "process" as used in this thread? Does a process have to be formally defined to be a process? Formally documented?

What does "include Management Responsibility as a process" mean? Does that mean formally document a process called Management Responsibility and call it a procedure and then recognize it as a peice of the organization's system?

Also, does the fact that the discussion centers around a Note have anything to do with our understanding of the requirement?

OK, maybe a hokey analogy. The main point is to ensure that management (leaders) are holding internal supplier processes accountable for inputs, so that they can provide the right outputs - decisions, actions, and resources.

Hokey or not, I like it.

Not sure if these were just questions for thought, vanputten or you are driving at something?
What is the definition of the word "process" as used in this thread?
I think that would be the generally accepted input-activity-output (0.2 Process Approach, paragraph 2)
Does a process have to be formally defined to be a process? Formally documented?
No and no, IMO. However, to conduct internal audits, I do need to follow a schedule. My schedule is based around our defined processes.
What does "include Management Responsibility as a process" mean? Does that mean formally document a process called Management Responsibility and call it a procedure and then recognize it as a peice of the organization's system?
Wait one second, that's MY question! lol. Although, I wouln't necessarily call it or create a procedure...
Also, does the fact that the discussion centers around a Note have anything to do with our understanding of the requirement? Search me.

What is the definition of the word "process" as used in this thread? I'm going to say the ISO 9000 definition, since TS uses this standard for normative reference. Process is defined as a "set of interrelated or interacting activities which transforms inputs into outputs."

Does a process have to be formally defined to be a process? Formally documented?
No. Processes exist regardless of whether or not we document them. However, to meet the TS 16949 (and ISO 9001) requirements in 4.1a-f and 4.2.2c, the processes must be identified/defined and the quality manual must include a description of the interactions between the QMS processes. That would be pretty tough to meet without formally defining and documenting the processes.
Also, does the fact that the discussion centers around a Note have anything to do with our understanding of the requirement?
Notes are provided for guidance in understanding or clarifying requirements. The fact that the note under 4.1 exists perhaps indicates that not enough organizations recognize the various types of processes necessary for an effective QMS.