Considering implementing some sort of ISO certified QMS for two reasons. #1 For the possibility that it may save us money. #2 To attract larger customers with higher volume orders.

Let me give you a vague overview of what we do. We are a machine shop that does work ranging from 1 part to 200 parts, generally. We build small parts for companies as well as large die sets. Most of our orders are for custom parts between the quantities of 1 and 10, though we do warehouse many blanket orders. We employ between 10-20 shop workers.

The limited quality program we currently have in place is as follows - some companies require inspections, so we provide inspection sheets for those companies. Our shop workers double check all of their work along way anyways, as a mistake is very costly.

My view on certified quality programs are that they are primarily for larger manufacturers running large numbers of similar parts (thousands).

Would an ISO certification help a shop like this and is it practical given the small custom order quantities?

Welcome to The Cove!

This question has been argued exhaustively. The simple answer is a maddening "Maybe."

ISO helps precisely to the extent that its structure is being profitably used, its principles are being accurately conformed with, the degree to which your customers demand it (some do, some don't) and IF you are not able to do the same thing "on your own" - without ISO.

Some people do it with Baldrige instead. The princples are the same, they just look less regimented than ISO.

ISO is a tool set. It's a management system structure, and the registration process is nothing more than offering customers some assurance that your management system supports making of satisfactory product. ISO does NOT promise quality, nor profits. That is up to the company to succeed with.

I hope this helps!

Considering implementing some sort of ISO certified QMS for two reasons. #1 For the possibility that it may save us money. #2 To attract larger customers with higher volume orders.

Let me give you a vague overview of what we do. We are a machine shop that does work ranging from 1 part to 200 parts, generally. We build small parts for companies as well as large die sets. Most of our orders are for custom parts between the quantities of 1 and 10, though we do warehouse many blanket orders. We employ between 10-20 shop workers.

The limited quality program we currently have in place is as follows - some companies require inspections, so we provide inspection sheets for those companies. Our shop workers double check all of their work along way anyways, as a mistake is very costly.

My view on certified quality programs are that they are primarily for larger manufacturers running large numbers of similar parts (thousands).

Would an ISO certification help a shop like this and is it practical given the small custom order quantities?

Welcome to the Cove from me to.

ISO will help any organization if it is utilized correctly. It does not matter if your organization has 10 or 10,000 employees. What it will help with is the following:

1. Structure within the Organization

2. Consistency within your processes

3. Improve efficiency (for some organizations)

4. The customer might be happier



These are just a few benefits that I have seen. There may be many more.

The most important factor for the System to work, is Top Management Support. Without this support you will fail.

Just my humble opinion.

thank you for the replies

There are 2 sides (IMO) of ISO (or any other quality system - AST/TS/HACCP/etc).

1. Recognition and awareness
You are trumpeting that YOU have inplemented (successfuly) a recognized quality system and that the system is certified,

Did you have any customers asking if you are certified? Did you lost any contracts because you were not?
If you answered yes (especially to the 2nd question) than, maybe, you should seriously consider the implementation (and certification) of a QMS.

2.Improving your business.

Any (well) implemented QMS is a money making machine. It will lean and improve your business from any point of vue. But you must be bent on pursuing and exceeding customers expectations and drive quality from top to to bottom. Do you need to certify the implemented system? Maybe...that's up to you...and your customers o/c.

Let's discuss the situation from a purely pragmatic viewpoint.

Currently, your shop is a job shop. You probably have some customers who order a small number of parts for their foreseeable use. If you are still in business when the requirement comes up again, these guys ask you to quote it all over again and you may or may not treat it as a new part versus a follow-up order, depending how good your record-keeping and memories of staff may be. If you treat it as a new part, you are subjecting your organization to the extra cost of estimating production method and running time versus having old records about setup and running time to use as references.

There is a possibility you might like to land some medium to high volume parts from customers, but you have currently positioned yourself as a "small order machine shop" and customers do not consider you for larger orders.

Since you do not have a consistent system of inspection, evaluation and record-keeping for EVERY order, but are "reactive" to the customer's specific requirements, you don't have a baseline of operations to truly evaluate whether every order is profitable or if some orders result in subsidies for other orders. You most likely don't have any method for review of your processes to determine if there are opportunities for continual improvement in any and every process within your business, from the pure machining down to the marketing methods you use and even something as minor as the packing and shipping methods you use to deliver finished goods to customers.

How compliance and especially formal registration to ISO 9001:2000 (soon to be ISO 9001:2008) can benefit a small machine shop.


Customers value a "known entity" in the supply chain because they can eliminate a lot of the soft costs of evaluating the entire organization for each order and they have confidence an organization will deliver consistent quality and service from one day to the next or even one year to the next. Being able to measure the attributes of a supplier against a Standard like ISO 9001 makes the initial evaluation much more efficient for a customer and may tip the scales in favor of new and additional purchases.
Many of the most profitable customers have "blinders" on when evaluating new prospects for their supply chain and won't even consider a supplier who is not registered to a Standard. Having a bona fide registration opens new markets to a supplier.
The intrinsic benefit of complying with or becoming registered to a Quality Management System Standard is that it imposes a "system" on a business that may have been chaotic, literally not knowing which orders returned the highest net profit and, therefore, not knowing which orders were really net losses to the organization. Usually, if the business is not chaotic, suppliers don't even begin to consider some way to "improve it." The danger of most chaotic systems is the owners and managers are so busy putting out fires, they don't have time to recognize how chaotic they are.
Probably the biggest single value for any business in adopting and complying with an International Standard like ISO 9001 as the "template" for its Quality Management System is the imposition of a formal process of internal audit and management review. I can say without fear of contradiction most small businesses do NOT have a formal audit and management review process unless and until they are really complying with an International Standard for Quality Management Systems. Most companies have some variation of "management by walking around (MBWA)," but rarely is that MBWA consistent in recording observations and the management decisions made regarding those observations. Almost always, customers are impressed by smoothly working internal audit systems because it signals less potential cost for the customer in evaluating the value of a supplier to its supply chain.


The reason so many suppliers opt to register to an International Standard like ISO 9001 is that it directly relates to greater sales and greater profit. If it were really a cost burden, no supplier in his right mind would agree to pay the money for registration. The price of admission to some supply chains is formal registration to an International Standard, including, but not limited to


ISO 9001 (general business and manufacturing)
TS 16949 (automotive supply chain)
ISO 13485 (medical devices)
AS 9100 (aerospace and commercial aviation)


:topic:When I was running my own contract machining business, registration to a Standard was not as important as today, but "compliance" certainly helped us. Here are some old posts where I discuss some specifics of what made our business profitable and successful:
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=105469&postcount=18
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=105566&postcount=20
These on record keeping might be interesting:
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=63324&postcount=7
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=189005&postcount=5

There are 2 sides (IMO) of ISO (or any other quality system - AST/TS/HACCP/etc).

1. Recognition and awareness
You are trumpeting that YOU have implemented (successfully) a recognized quality system and that the system is certified,

Did you have any customers asking if you are certified? Did you lost any contracts because you were not?
If you answered yes (especially to the 2nd question) than, maybe, you should seriously consider the implementation (and certification) of a QMS.

2.Improving your business.

Any (well) implemented QMS is a money making machine. It will lean and improve your business from any point of view. But you must be bent on pursuing and exceeding customers expectations and drive quality from top to to bottom. Do you need to certify the implemented system? Maybe...that's up to you...and your customers o/c.

As usual, the correct answer to any question is "It Depends".

Fact is, of the above two items, only one truly supports ISO certification, and that is the first one. Will the ISO9000 flag really get you more customers or more orders? If so, enough to pay for the "overhead" of maintaining the certification?

As far as improving your business, you are free to implement any of the ISO9000 elements on your own - without paying for a certification. Just go ahead and do it!:agree1:

Where ISO9000 becomes to most beneficial is where you are a quality professional that gets little cooperation for implementing improvements unless there is threat of a major or minor nonconformance looming. If you don't need that baseball bat to get things done, then you are lucky, and you really only need to ponder the marketing benefit.

Whoops - did I say that out loud? :cool:

I should have mentioned that we do use JobBoss. All of our records are kept electronically in there and we do have each job we have ever done printed out individually and numerically stored in binders for backup reference.

When we recieve an order for a part that we have made in the past we search for the customers part number, note what we charged, check what we paid for material, price out new material, if the material cost has not increased we make the part again no questions asked. If the material price has increased since the last time we made it we simply inform them of our price increase. We have electronically sorted inventory that we can access. All of the jobs we have done in the past have included prints from the customer or prints we have made for the customer. Those prints are attached to each of the numerically sorted jobs in binders as well as electronically sorted in folders on our computer.

Just background info. And we do use the old school time cards system for keeping track of hours spent on jobs.

Will the ISO9000 flag really get you more customers or more orders? If so, enough to pay for the "overhead" of maintaining the certification?

If you don't need that baseball bat to get things done, then you are lucky, and you really only need to ponder the marketing benefit.




Glad you understand where I am coming from. Things are going well in the shop and we do have room for expansion. We are organized and have very very minimal downtime, if any. Wondering if we will get any increased business after earning the "ISO" stamp. And also yes, if maintaining the certification is worth the additional business, if any, that it brings.

Glad you understand where I am coming from. Things are going well in the shop and we do have room for expansion. We are organized and have very very minimal downtime, if any. Wondering if we will get any increased business after earning the "ISO" stamp. And also yes, if maintaining the certification is worth the additional business, if any, that it brings.


Then make your decision a business decision because it's not about product quality it's about process quality and it all boils down to MONEY! As I have said many times over "If money wasn't at the root of it, nobody would do ISO anything to get a warm fuzzy". If your long term return can exceed your short term investment do it. If you can't see any potential for increased profitability don't waste the time or resources. Investing in a managemnt system has to be a strategic business decision, your not purchasing a new copy machine, your betting on the future growth and financial health of your company.

I should have mentioned that we do use JobBoss. All of our records are kept electronically in there and we do have each job we have ever done printed out individually and numerically stored in binders for backup reference.

When we recieve an order for a part that we have made in the past we search for the customers part number, note what we charged, check what we paid for material, price out new material, if the material cost has not increased we make the part again no questions asked. If the material price has increased since the last time we made it we simply inform them of our price increase. We have electronically sorted inventory that we can access. All of the jobs we have done in the past have included prints from the customer or prints we have made for the customer. Those prints are attached to each of the numerically sorted jobs in binders as well as electronically sorted in folders on our computer.

Just background info. And we do use the old school time cards system for keeping track of hours spent on jobs.

I think you have rather good tracking system for jobs & prices :)

FYI, I work in a small machine shop too. Our co. decided to go for ISO 9001:2000 certified mainly requested by customers, they want their vendors are ISO certified so that they have more confident to incoming products. It is a significant competitive edge over competitors (who are not ISO certified）in the eyes of existing or possible customers. After rec ISO 9001:2000 cert, I could see that our customers have more confident to us and it's a point we are better than our competitors.

Besides, after implemented ISO, we look into improvement more thoroughly and systematically, eg. have trainings, improvement plans and actions taken towards non-conformance products or vendors. It stimulates us to think how can we and why should we improve further. I think a company will earn more in long run with everyone believe that a co. should improve continuously.

I agree with many says that it's really true that 'it depends' whether implementation of ISO beneficial to a co. IMO, it will be really beneficial to a co. if you tailor made ISO system to your company needs & culture, as long as you adhere all the requirements. Then, implement monitor and improve it as necessarily.

I think it's important to keep the system as simple as possible and the no. of documents as minimum as possible, especially for small co. We implement the system to assist us for further improvement, not to burden us.

That's merely my own experience & views, hope it gives you some idea!

For what it is worth, I call on several businesses with employee counts as small or smaller than yours. One machine shop that is a one man operation. Several machine shops with less then ten employees. All feel that it is "worth it".

Besides what it does to help you monitor product quality (and that's critically important), a properly implemented ISO 9001:2000 based quality management system is a wonderful management tool. It helps with far more than just product quality.

To me, some of the key elements that make it a powerful management tool are "Analysis of Data" where you track customer satisfaction, product quality, process conformance, and supplier performance. These metrics and others are part of "Management Review" where the company determines the "state of the quality management system" and then plans "where they want to go from here".

When a quality management system is functioning well, the company is better organized, a better place to work, and has much less running around "putting out fires".

Those look like solid benefits to me. Isn't that what you would like for your company?

Thank you for all of the responses. Lots of relevant information here.

Assuming a shop has an efficient record keeping process including time spent on jobs, past jobs, current and old material prices, price increases, inventory, invoices etc... how much is involved in gaining certification from ISO?

Thank you for all of the responses. Lots of relevant information here.

Assuming a shop has an efficient record keeping process including time spent on jobs, past jobs, current and old material prices, price increases, inventory, invoices etc... how much is involved in gaining certification from ISO?

Is the system documented?

You will have some requirements that you need to meet and address.

Is the system documented?

You will have some requirements that you need to meet and address.

No, the system is not currently documented. I figured I would have to document all of our accounting/ order proccessing procedures to meet ISO which shouldn't be difficult. What else is there? (in a nutshell)

No, the system is not currently documented. I figured I would have to document all of our accounting/ order proccessing procedures to meet ISO which shouldn't be difficult. What else is there? (in a nutshell)

Flow-chart the Business from womb to tomb. Document the way the business performs. Develop Policy and Business Objectives. That will get you started.

No, the system is not currently documented. I figured I would have to document all of our accounting/ order proccessing procedures to meet ISO which shouldn't be difficult. What else is there? (in a nutshell)Mostly, I find small companies do not have ANY process for internal audit and management review - everything is done "on-the-fly" with no preset plan and little or no record of the activity or the decisions made as a result of the activity.

Start by getting a copy of the ISO 9001:2000 standard and reading it carefully. Better still, take a class.

No, the system is not currently documented. I figured I would have to document all of our accounting/ order proccessing procedures to meet ISO which shouldn't be difficult. What else is there? (in a nutshell)

If I am not mistaken, accounting documents are not included in ISO sys; but Purchase Orders (POs) yes...

Mostly, I find small companies do not have ANY process for internal audit and management review - everything is done "on-the-fly" with no preset plan and little or no record of the activity or the decisions made as a result of the activity.

:agree1: That's exactly what happened to our co. before ISO implementation. Indeed, I think well implemented ISO system will be really helpful for a small co. that it will guide us to get everything more organized and improve continuously. It's easier to start implementing ISO while a co. is small.

There will be thousands of stories out there about the pluses and minuses of getting certificated but I just came across this one 2 days ago. I went to conduct the 1st surveillance visit on an engineering company who have increased in size from 40-60 employees in the last 6 months and are on course to double their turnover this year.

They have also just won an order worth 1m Euros - I asked the MD if that was because they had ISO 9001 - his answer was that having it did not get them the job but not having it would have prevented them from doing so.

All coincidence? maybe, but they are convinced that it was worth it. By the way, they don't have such a great system yet, it's a bit generic so they are improving it as they go along.

I went to conduct the 1st surveillance visit on an engineering company who have increased in size from 40-60 employees in the last 6 months and are on course to double their turnover this year.

The term "turnover" is often misinterpreted in the USA. Turnover in the USA is associated with the number or percentage of employees hired and leaving (resigned or fired).

In the UK it means: sales.

Stijloor.

Start by getting a copy of the ISO 9001:2000 standard and reading it carefully. Better still, take a class.


Better yet, get the ISO 9004:2000 book. It includes the ISO 9001 standard and gives you a lot of good ideas on how to do the things required.

No, the system is not currently documented. I figured I would have to document all of our accounting/ order proccessing procedures to meet ISO which shouldn't be difficult. What else is there? (in a nutshell)


There is very little a small machine would have to actually document. The better actually would be to plan and develop the system, and as you progress, it will become clear what needs to be documented. (ref cl 4.2.1.d)

Thank you for all of the responses. Lots of relevant information here.

Assuming a shop has an efficient record keeping process including time spent on jobs, past jobs, current and old material prices, price increases, inventory, invoices etc... how much is involved in gaining certification from ISO?

Where are you located? Seems like a day spent with a consultant to review where you are and get you started would save you a lot of time and money in doing this. Otherwise, you may end up with a system that is not very useful to you.

The term "turnover" is often misinterpreted in the USA. Turnover in the USA is associated with the number or percentage of employees hired and leaving (resigned or fired).

In the UK it means: sales.

Stijloor.

Stijloor

Thanks for the clarification, it would not be a great advert for ISO 9001 if interpreted that way!

The term "turnover" is often misinterpreted in the USA. Turnover in the USA is associated with the number or percentage of employees hired and leaving (resigned or fired).

In the UK it means: sales.

Stijloor.

:topic: It can also mean Delivery rate from a Supplier. It really depends on what the context of the sentence it is used in.

Everyone has provided good information for you, and I hope it has been helpful.

The next step after you have evaluated all of the responses, would be to do a search for implementation of the standard. This has been asked and discussed numerous times for different products or services. Just a suggestion.

Where are you located? Seems like a day spent with a consultant to review where you are and get you started would save you a lot of time and money in doing this. Otherwise, you may end up with a system that is not very useful to you.
I'm pretty sure the OP is located in the very far south suburbs of Chicago - I think they have a growing season almost a month longer than mine up near the Wisconsin border!;)

Actually not a bad idea, though, to consider a one day "confab" with an expert. If the OP is a member of ASQ Chicago Section 1201, odds are he can find a knowledgeable member close to home who might help out in this regard. If not, he can at least contact the Section Chair and ask for recommendations. That contact info is available from ASQ headquarters in Milwaukee.

This is advice (for contacting a local consultant) which can help almost any company in North America - ASQ will be happy to identify the Section Chair for the area closest to you.