I have been looking at software to become paperless. We have 4 plants currently registared to the QS 9000 standard and would like to get them all paperless very soon. I have looked at numerous software programs and demos are deceiving. Are there any paperless QS 9000 registered facilites that can suggest software they are currently using? I have heard lots of horror stories from auditors on several of the more popular softwares. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!!

isoXpert with Lotus Notes and Powerway are two that I have used that are very good.
The down side of lotus notes is that it is not "user friendly".

Unfortunately our systems personnel are extremely busy. I have even thought of the local college for assistance.

I looked at Powerway and went to one of their seminars. I was close to purchasing their product until I contacted some of the contacts they provided. Some of the replies were not favorable. Powerway is also more expensive than any other software that I looked at because they sell it by module.

No, we do not run Lotus Notes. I will investigate the isoXpert and see what they have.

Have you thought about having your IS folks write a database for you?

Are you folks running LotusNotes? I assume you have a WAN.

My division has been using ISOxpert for almost a year. It is very easy to personalize if you are at all familiar with Notes, if not I would highly suggest the training courses. The training courses are extremely expensive, $250 US for a couple hours over the phone, and a whole lot more for an actual in-person training session. I would suggest that you take a general Notes course and play with the program for a while.
All in all, ISOxpert has worked out very well, and the newer version is supposed to be even better. I don't think Powerway has that much of a better product, its just a lot more expensive.

Steph

ISI has some good stuff.....KeyFile is excellent....and a new one i just saw, but the name excapes me at the moment, was pretty good too (it interfaces with your officeprograms)... (I'll go and check for the name...its out of Canada i think)

All that said....I like a home grown system best. if you go canned be sure you can manipulate it to suit your needs...no sense adding pain to the process.

AdobeAcrobat 'pdf files' is a good way to go as well..ensures compatability with any system, only needs a license for the writers...reader is a free download..nice cause you can do drawings, and send to suppliers, etc. and not worry which version of what software people have...a plus for several locations

[This message has been edited by barb butrym (edited 05 October 1999).]

[This message has been edited by barb butrym (edited 05 October 1999).]

Tell you what ! the way I have my procedures is on Microsoft Word with Visio ( flowchart) embedded and use Microsoft Access for all the rest of the bells and whistles. Couldn't be simpler.

Sounds great, George! But could you give us some more details?

That is my generic plan as well....its clean and neat...but recently, I have taken that one step further and posted on the "system network" using adobe pdf.....so we could add cad stuff. I used to just 'read only' with MS office stuff, but they added sites, not all systems were running the same software...word -vs-worf perfect...all sorts of variations of revs as well.some even had MAC..so as a quick fix we did pdf ...but it worked so well...they kept it even when everyone finially talked to the same software.

I'm being nasty and cross-posting. This guy pissed me off....

--------snippo-------

I was checking out some prices on software for a client and called Powerway. They gave me a guy named David Armstrong. He flat out told me Powerway doesn't work with consultants. I said I just was trying to get some prices on modules and he told me in so many words prices are none of my business.

From this - before you consider Powerway, consider their attitude and karma. And why do they want to hide their prices anyway?

barb:

What can you tell me about ISI? Is their web site ISI.com and do you have any prices?

I talked with CyberMetrics and their SUPPLIERtrak ran about US$1K a seat.

I'm really looking for some basic non-conformance / corrective action stuff. I'm not sure I want to learn Access.... Then again...

What I have is a 120 soul company which is really an equipment supplier. It's an ISO effort, so I realize this isn't exactly the right forum, but the thread topic is close.

This was e-mailed to me. I am posting it because David Armstrong's policy is obviously not Powerway policy. Fair is fair:

Subject: Comments on Powerway
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:47:24 -0500
From: bill cox
To: Forum_Mail

As a member of the management team for POWERWAY, reading the comments from Mr. Smith were very disturbing. After investigating the incident I would like to offer Mr. Smith or anyone who has similar comments to contact me direct at 1-800-964-9004 X6778 or at dwcox@powerway.com . In reference to POWERWAY products and services sometimes our competitors, become disgruntled when trying to acquire prices before discussing their goals and objectives with us. Each company we work with is very different and the pricing structure is different for the modules depending on whether they are single workstations or a network environment. Our single unit prices are $825.00 per module. and our network unit prices $595.00 per module. (Note: discounts are assigned by the number of units purchased).

If you need further assistance on specifics please feel free to contact us direct. We offer Training and Consulting as well.

I am a little intrigued about all the Software discussions on this web-site. I think i am missing something, maybe becuase i havent had the time recently to go to demo's and i dont very often get involved in QS.

I can see the sense in getting as much of your documentation loaded onto a central server somewhere, and distributing by E Mail. I also have good experience of spreading the message through company Intranets. But can anybody educate me of other advantages from proprietry software.

Regards
Andy

------------------
Andy B

Sometimes a 'canned' solution makes sense. Sometimes not. There are a lot of factors: Company size, intranet/LAN/WAN capabilities/equipment, distribution of desktop computers (access issues), desktop hardware, resources (personnel) to write, say, a specialized database in something like MS Access, current software (like mrp on an AS400) and systems, etc., etc.

Some things like document control can be handled by canned systems OK, but then again. For example, say your level 2's are flow charts. How will the canned software handle it? Canned systems are generally pretty structured. What if you want to add a field or change formatting? My own opinion is that choice 1 should be write a customized database specific to your business.

I guess I haven't really given you positive aspects, though. Well, they can be simple for some companies to implement, I guess.

Some canned software only makes sense - such as gage control with R&R and such.

Sometimes a company doesn't have internal folks who can write, say, an Access or Filemaker database and hiring someone from the outside will sometimes exceed the price of canned software.

Any other takers on this one?

marc...ISI's web site is intergalsolutions.com or something similar spelled out. Haven't been communicating with them lately, actually I just do the Access thing more and more. Its simple to just walk through and the wizard does it all. That and a cheat book I have is all the training I had...the book is "Access for busy people"....and have seen many others that do the trick as well (just like the "dummies" ones).... you can get fancy, but not worth the bother. the Access for 97 was made simple...prior to that I wouldn't attempt it...and I understand 2000 is even better, although have not seen it.

We are using an Israeli product called QSOFT. This is now available in English, whilst it is not PPAP or APQP orientated it is possible to use for a paperless system. It has the advantage of the ability to add your own applications very easily.
Contact qsoft@inter.net.il for more info.

Has anyone out there used MasterControls Document Control System? I would like some feedback from users of this software. This is currently the one I am looking at.

The ISI website url is http://www.integsolutions.com

If anyone has any experience with their software, please let me know if it is a good program as our company is looking at purchasing it.

There is a corrective action software that is put out by the Harrington Group. The Harrington Group also has many other software programs for quality. I have no experience with these programs other than the demos. Their website is http://www.harrington-group.com

Again, I would appreciate any feedback regarding either Integral solutions software or the Harrington Group's, or both.

Thanks!

We use the Audit Master 3 for our internal audits and we are very pleased. You can change the configurations on their documents and incorporate your company logo. It also allows you to control the users access. Not expensive at all and very user friendly.
In the past we used their document control software but it did not meet our needs for the paperless system we are trying to achieve.

I moved this thread here from the QS9000 forum. Further replies can be posted here.

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 28 December 1999).]

The best ISO/QS software that I have seen so far is a product called MQ1 made by a company named CEBOS, Ltd. It has 9 modules that are sold as one package, including APQP, Audits, Quality, Purchasing, Connect, Documents, Equipment, Gage, and Training. The package covers all 20 elements and is
fully integrated. Their website is found at *** DEAD LINK REMOVED ***

I haven't seen any other software that is so complete and user friendly. It is Microsoft Access based and the document system works with MS Office documents as well as many others. They also offer customization for all parts of the software, including customized reports.

----------------------

EDITOR'S NOTE: I cannot tell if this was posted by a sales rep or an actual user. If you're going to cite software, you should be a user - please tell us about your experience with it as opposed to simply stating attributes. Thanks!

klkish:

How big is the company (how many souls and locations) you are using this software in? Is it scaleable?

Originally posted by Andy Bassett:
I can see the sense in getting as much of your documentation loaded onto a central server somewhere, and distributing by E Mail. I also have good experience of spreading the message through company Intranets. But can anybody educate me of other advantages from proprietry software.I think a lot of it is how you company is structured and views its self. Some have enough IS folks to write a database. Some contract most or all of it out. Some IS departments have a budget where they can outsource a tailored solution - LotusNotes is relatively easy to develop for. A lot just want something they can install and 'turn on' expecting an easy answer.

Personally, I tend to recommend doing your own when possible. But - let's say you're looking at an APQP solution (control of documents alone is really not a very complex issue). It is complex enough that it often makes the most sense to buy a structured software solution.

In addition, if you look at a company like Motorola, there are a lot more issues than in a 10 person shop.

Depends upon a lot of factors.


[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 29 December 1999).]

We are using QSI (this software is used with Lotus Notes) for our 5 plants and I know Dana corporation is using it to. QSI is really easy to use and can eliminate all the paper use for QS-9000. I will try to have more information for you in a near futur.

Just wanted to let you know more about MQ1 by CEBOS. Another site to look at is *** DEAD LINK REMOVED *** you can go here and download the demo of the tool. It is a fully integrated relational database that is SUPER easy to use. It covers ALL of QS-9000, as well as elements of TE and ISO-14001. With this software you CAN have a paperless system without spending the time, money, and frustration developing your own system. Why re-create the wheel?

Originally posted by Merrion:
Just wanted to let you know more about MQ1 by CEBOS.Do you actually use it or are you a company rep?

Has anyone actually used this software???? This is the second attribute post.

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 02 February 2000).]

Would love some User feedback as well. Demo didn't tell me much. Allowed to see filled in screens, not "play."

Anyone?

Received by email after I tried the DEMO.
Guess we know the answer to the last question.
______________Start of email______________
Thank you for registering for our MQ1 ISO/QS
9000 Software Demonstration. MQ1 Software is
a fully integrated, relational database
system covering all elements of the
ISO/QS-9000 requirements. MQ1 is proven in
various industries to significantly reduce
time and costs for implementing and
maintaining quality systems.
We look forward to contacting you and
provide any additional information you may
need.

Thank You!
Doug Merrion
Account Executive
_________________________________________

Those types of demos are garbage. They tell you next to nothing.

Hi, I am an MQ1 user/admin. We have had great success with this program. We bought it strictly for the purpose of getting our registration and I don't think we could have gotten registered without either this program or adding personnel in both Quality and Engineering. It really had all the elements we needed for QS. We did not see any other software that had Engineering/Documentation/Quality all together. Previously, we had FMEAs and Control Plans on spreadsheets, forms scattered about our file server, Engineering data in three separate systems, customer complaints in various paper files around the office.
Also, the Access format has allowed us to customize extensively. We have added some functionality in APQP and Quality as well as a long list of reports. MQ1 caters to users who want to customize as long as you have the discipline to document changes so udpates do not wipe them out. The Process module is completely custom (either by you or by Cebos) to suit your business. I created one for our company with order entry, raw material requirements and receiving (purchasing is through the Purchasing module, customized), machine scheduling, shipping, invoicing, timekeeping, inventory. All of this uses the existing data in MQ1: employee records, company data, product attributes, part processing from control plans, supplied goods.
Any specific questions?

How many people in your company?

Are all the APQP doucments linked?

In other words, you type in PFD, and PFMEA, PCP appropriate field are filled in?

Is your enginnering on-site or remote?

Is their a job instruction feature?

Hello. I’ve been lurking for quite a while. Your site has helped me a lot with our QS
drive and I guess it's time i gave something back. You recently asked for some feedback from real Cebos users (not sales reps). We have been using Cebos since July 1998.

We went from ISO to QS 9000 in March of 99. Cebos was a definite benefit.

We are a foundry with 3 sites and approximately 185 employees.

Cebos is a smallish company located in Detroit. There are not a lot of users yet (my guess is around 50). Their focus is on automotive manufacturing.

The founder of the company is a quality consultant who couldn’t find software to support QS, so he decide to create it. The thing I appreciate the most is their apparoach. Cebos stands for Continuously Improving Business Operating Software. It is a Business System which results in Quality, not a software package that prints tons of compliance paperwork (although it can do that too).

Support is excellent. Real people answer the phone and don’t hang up until the problem is fixed.

Since we bought it, there have been 2 major upgrades. A new client server version is
coming soon.

Someone asked if the Flow/FMEA/Control Plan are linked. They are indeed. They form a "triad" where any change made within any component seamlessly updates the entire package. Operator instructions (including images) are also part of this linked group.

I'd be happy to answer any other specific questions.

From: "Jeff Stephens"
Newsgroups: misc.industry.quality
Subject: Re: going paperless
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:07:16 -0500

If you are working in an FDA regulated industry, any paperless system will have to be compliant with the title 21 of the CFR part 11 ***DEAD LINK REMOVED*** - was fda.gov/ cdrh/ devadvice/ part011.html

This is the FDA's section on electronic records and signatures. It has caused quite a lot of consternation among pharmaceutical and medical device companies with its requirements.

In my company (Johnson & Johnson Consumer Products), we have paper forms that are routed manually via a sign-off sheet when changes are requested. Managing all of the forms, their changes, and keeping current ones on the floor consume many resources (approximately 7 full time people to manage documentation for 500 workers). We are aggressively trying to achieve some level of paperless system for better compliance. Forms are used to record inspection data taken off the floor and for finished product release.

Part 11 is divided into roughly two parts: electronic records and electronic signatures. For electronic records, data integrity must be assured with restricted access and an audit trail if the original data is changed. Electronic signatures encompass electronic records but includes a requirement that the signature be 'authentic'.

In the current interpretation of part 11, standard email does not comply with electronic signatures since email can be forged. Most Word documents do not comply with records since MS Word does not generate an audit trail when the document is changed. Passwords many help assure data integrity meeting electronic record requirements, but does not guarentee author identification like a retina scan or thumbprint, called biometric identification.

Depending on your level of complexity and the size of your budget, part 11 compliance can be achieved. Penop Inc. (http://www.penop.com/) has developed a set of OLE objects that will permit you to embed a true electronic signature in a Word document or Adobe pdf file.

Probably the best system for right now is some kind of hybrid. If data is entered into a computer, say an SPC system or Access database, and an inspection form generated automatically, then this can be manually signed skirting the electronic signature ruling. You would still have to meet the electronic record requirements, however. This has been done for sterile water systems where a PLC dumps raw data on temperature for example into a file every minute or so and an inspection record is generated from a validated program at the end of the shift with the average, maximum, and minimum requirements.

Jeff Stephens

Originally posted by Laura M:
Are all the APQP doucments linked?

In other words, you type in PFD, and PFMEA, PCP appropriate field are filled in?

Is your enginnering on-site or remote?

Is their a job instruction feature?

Sorry for the delay in responding. We have approximately 80 employees at one location. Our engineering is definitely on-site, it's in the middle of the shop.

Yes, PFD/PFMEA/PCP are all linked. For a given part (we do not have assemblies, but there is support for that as well, you would have to talk to Cebos) you enter a process flow with your own predefined processes. FMEA entries are related to processes and can be further specified as applying to all parts with that process, one part only, or all parts in product family. So work done on reducing RPNs can apply to a large number of individual FMEAs. You can then use this information to add characteristics, operator instructions, visual aids, and reaction plans to individual part control plans. For one of our home-grown modifications, I was able to use the Specifications field in the control plan to print on a packing list for outsourced processes.

I am looking forward to having SPC software (WinSPC) integrated into this package as they are planning now.

I work for a small (under 50 empl.) tooling manufacturer and we have just started on the path toward TE registration. I too have found your feedback and discussions extremely enlighting. Of particular interest to me was the feedback on registrars (in light of the fact that I was for a time the general manager of Entela's Livonia division); we have selected NSF. I have been reviewing the software that is available for ISO tracking and I had Doug Merrion in yesterday. I have to say the MQ1 was impressive, but so is the price. I prefer the fact that it is Access based as most of the other integrated programs are Oracle (system moverhead is way too much for servers like ours) or software goes the other way and is written in Foxpro or Claris. For me, the problem is that although I feel comfortable writing Access databases, I can't afford to spend the majority of my time doing it. We have started from ground zero with no quality person at all! I too get the impression that the current Cebos user base is small which is what's driving their price to recoup development costs, but they are talking about a possible "lite" version which will probably come too late for us. Any more feedbak on software is appreciated. Thanks

I had looked at System9000 about 4 years back. Does anyone know if that survived? It didn't look that bad, but was too much $$$.

WE ARE USING MICROSOFT WORD PRO, MICROGRAPHICS FLOWCHARTER, FOR OUR DOCUMENTS AND USING ADOBE READER FOR ONLINE ACCESS..WORKS A TREAT.

I've been trying to get a hold of a "real" demo of Powerway. Has anyone else had luck? Any Powerway folks out there? I received a call back, but its been about 3 weeks, and nothing has arrived!!

laura there system is as unresponsive as their sales reps...also about as user friendly....

Ms office, visio flowcharter, and adobe acrobat is my package of choice..set it up to suit each individual company...paperless or not.

Just a quick headsup for an Australian product. Take a look at www.4tq.com. (http://www.4tq.com.) This package has saved my bacon in more ways than I can count. There is no demo but I would be happy to discuss the details with any one. (PS I'm a user, not a rep).
I have also recently discovered MS Outlook as a great online database if you are in an MS environment.

Originally posted by Laura M:
I had looked at System9000 about 4 years back. Does anyone know if that survived? It didn't look that bad, but was too much $$$.

Laura

I think I looked at this too. Try this link
***DEAD LINK REMOVED***

The company is Systemcorp in Montreal. They seem to have a new product called Process Components 98. It seems ISO based, with no QS 9000 add ons.

I recall a QS 9000 version about 4 years ago offered in association with ASQC. It seems to have vanished from their web site.

I also have had no luck with Powerway. Several years ago I took our IT guy to a trade show with the express purpose of buying the APQP module of Powerway.

It took 20 minutes to tear them away from the golf games, tee shirts, free draws, business card collection, and general sales fluffery.

It then turned out that no one really knew how to run the demo. They did find someone in the booth who would try. Two crashes later we walked away.

Now in all fairness, that was a while ago and the APQP product had just come out. It sure looks good on their web site...but as always, buyer beware.

Cheers

Joe

Posted to me.
"
Hello James

Could you fill me in on how you use MS Outlook. I have suspected that i could use tis as a tool, mainly to drive improvements, but i have not yet tried it. Can you send me some details.
Send it to andybassett@compuserve.com or post it on the QS9000 website.
Regards
Andy
"

I use MS Outlook as a database for Documents (Archive Log, Controlled Doc Distribution, External Document Log, Internal Documents Log, Records Log), for Personel and Training records, for Corrective Action tracking (Non-Conformance reports and Process Improvement Notices (PIN's) which are my version of CAR's, and to maintain Supplier Records.
I also use Outlook public calendar to control the Internal Review schedule and assign tasks to my review team.

Because the company is on an MS Exchange messaging backbone I use the Public Folders to distribute this database, but it could work equally well for one person to control the database, you would just need to distrubute the information by email.
Outlook is a great freeform database. You simply create a new form based on one of the built-in forms. The new form then inherits the capabilities of the original. For example, I based the PIN system on the Outlook Task system. I created a new Public Folder containing task items. Then created a new form based on the task form. I used a few standard elements of the original form, the subject, created date, owner, priority, due date, status, % complete, completed date, and the message field. By draging the fields from the field chooser to a new page, rearranging and renaming them and then hiding the original page I had an instant new PIN database. The PIN system then tracks the progress of the PIN, and flags when it is over due. You can also assign the PIN to other people on the network for action and receive reports when it is completed (all properties of the original Task system.

Another other way of doing things is to create new fields that are specifically what you want, eg a distribution method for the Document Control system. This is much much simpler in Outlook than traditional databases and much easier to make changes later. For example, there are no limits for field sizes (single and double precision and all tha rubbish), the forms are automatically kept independant from the data.

A good book is (without wanting to fill Bill's pockets even more) "Building Applications with MS Outlook 98" from MS Press.

Now can anyone with more Outlook knowledge help me? I can't get outlook to start up in a Public Folder. I try to follow what it says in Help but I keep getting invalid switch errors. Any ideas?


[This message has been edited by James Gutherson (edited 26 March 2000).]

Anyone out their use Powerway's "9000 express" program? Pro's....Con's?

Personal Opinion >>> Powerway sucks. I don't like their people, their attitude, they are vague, and they are WAY to expensive. God forbid you get on one of their mailing/fax lists. However, I have not tried ANY of their products. The "hard sell" usually turns me off pretty quickly.

Way back up there like George >>> Word w/Visio's flowcharting software. Works great, but it depends upon the size of your company. We are 200 at this facility. We recently opened up facilities in Ireland and China and they took the system which I designed and used them as a base for development in those facilities (much smaller in number - personnel).

Flowcharting is highly recommended by users and even auditors. Visio is the best I've used and their technical support, updates, information is great and easy to come by. Flowcharts are user friendly. Before discovering Visio, our entire system was text-based (MS Word) and people HATED it. (Not to mention excessively verbose.) Flowcharting forces you to be succinct (preventing audit traps) and it has worked for us since 1995.

ALM

A note on PowerWay.

I used it at a previous company about 1 year ago. From a QA end user stand point, I can tell you that I pretty much liked it.

But I can also tell you that it gave my IT/MIS guy fits. He was always having trouble with it and not having much luck with IT support.

If it was up and running - from my point it was very good. But down times were killers and probably took 10 years off my MIS's life.

A note on PowerWay -

I purchased the Gauge Management Module (gage to USA persons!)and wished I had not.

The support I received in the UK is non-existent. As an example, it will only print reports if you system is configured to the American date format. Not very good over here!

When I questioned this with PowerWay I was first told that there was no problem. When i persisted I was told there may be a problem and that they were looking into it.
Finally, I pinned them down and was advised that they had received several complaints and a fix was only two weeks away (this was January this year)
I still have had no fix despite trying, and the cheeky sods even tried to sell me the SPC module.

Given my frustrated efforts with Powerway, I could not recommend it.

After using Master Control by Document Control Systems I am pleased to tell you that all is well.
Technical support has been great, they respond quickly. The sales staff still calls and shares new ways to use their product which I find a big plus.
We are currently thinking of putting our internal audits in Master Control. I will keep you posted as to how that goes.
I would encourage anyone who has document control problems (mine was 5 plants) to look into Master Control. I can see what each of my QA Admin's are doing with document control. We now approve documents through a Corporate team of Quality Managers and QA Admin's. It is working very well!!

I agree with one ogf the other contributors. I converted all of my documents written in Word 97 into PDF files. These were then compiled into a master Quality Manual sitting on the network server. A shortcut to the manual was then placed on every desktop in the company and they all had Acrobat reader (which is free ) installed. All forms were scanned in as well so it is de facto totally controlled and available to everyone in the company as read only. Forms can be printed out where needed. Any updated docs in Word are automatically inserted into the master PDF file. No more issuing and collecting of obsolete documents.

Hi Greg, I've also just recently gone over to Acrobat for the majority of documents (mixed with some HTML, and still word for online forms)), and I was wondering from your post how do you get the word docs to automatically update the master pdf file?

Sounds like an excellent idea!
What software would I need to convert word docs to pdf files?
TIA

Hi Don, you actually need to buy the full blown version of Adobe Acrobat from Adobe systems. www.adobe.com (http://www.adobe.com)

The program integrates into Word, Excel, Powerpoint, but you can use it to create pdf files from any program by printing to the acrobat 'printer' the program creates.

It has a lot of other uses including more robust online forms than Word, but you need to have the full version of Acrobat on each computer then, too expensive for my taste.

Hiya James,
Thanks for the info -I'll have a look at the Adobe site to determine the best way to set up electronic doc control.
Cheers,
Don

Barb,
I hadn’t seen this discussion before today so I went back over it and came across a case where some guy had told how he was using an everyday word processor and graphic package and it seemed ok for him. You were about to expand on the subject when Marc jumped on him and mauled the poor guy to death so we’ll never really know what the guy was trying to say to us and you didn’t pursue the subject. (I don’t know what’s gotten into Marc these days - whether it’s the warm weather and his haemorrhoids itching him again, or maybe he got a trigger word in his brain when he was captured at Guadacanal, like Frank Sinatra in The Manchurian Candidate - anyway, it’s best, for a while to go easy while he’s around.)
Well, I happen to think the guy was on the right track. I can’t see why anyone would buy complicated and expensive software to do a very simple job. The first thing I was told when I set out on my own business was that business is all about looking after money and not to buy anything you don’t need.
What are we trying to do? Make some procedures available for people to read, approve and have limited access to to make changes. We need word processing and graphics. We prefer it to be read only but can tolerate everyone having print capacity if we have to, for the sake of keeping the cost and complexity down. We would like to be able to put it up on the web. Most times it would just be put up on a server, accessable as necessary.
I’m assuming that this project is not concerned with dataprocessing and such.

What would the specialised package do that I can’t with just access to a server?

This is as far as my experience and imagination stretches on the subject. Maybe, there’s more to it. I’d like to hear just what a system should have or what facilities are available that could make a better system than what I have described. I just don’t have an idea. In fact, my only ideas are; 1) that the more a system is capable of delivering, the more difficult and time consuming it is to use. 2) people tend to make easy things complicated.

What about the DMS on the web? Have you seen it? Has anyone else? What is practicable? Is the answer your PDF adobe system? Does the fact that the information is on a simple, standard package make a difference when it uploads? How do the costs balance out; having and maintaining your own server versus buying time on line?

I could find out by trying it out but I have a limited parcel of webspace available so it might be a waste of time. Also, it pays to get input first, from people who have done some work in the area.

rgds, John C

Originally posted by John C:
I hadn’t seen this discussion before today so I went back over it and came across a case where some guy had told how he was using an everyday word processor and graphic package and it seemed ok for him. You were about to expand on the subject when Marc jumped on him and mauled the poor guy to death so we’ll never really know what the guy was trying to say to us and you didn’t pursue the subject.What message was this in? Quote it if you can find it. I'd like to see the whole message because I have no problem with a word processor and a graphics program in a small business. I'll bet there was more to it than what you're stating. I've read every posting in this thread just now and I cannot find a message where I jumped down someone's throat. Again, please tell me which post I 'mauled' someone in.

By the way - I'm always around....

In the mean time, I will state my position. Documentation should be as simple as the business allows. If you have 10 people and Excel and Word (or a cheap word processor and a cheap spreadsheet) that's all you need. If you want to do flow charts and don't have powerpoint, there are several cheap flow charting programs available including SmartDraw ( http://www.smartdraw.com/ ) if you're a windows person. If you're a large company, all you need is Word and Excel and a savvy IS person to set priorities in directories. You do not need acrobat unless you:

1. Want to get fancy
or
2. You don't want to pay for everyone in the company to have a copy of MS Office.

I do not believe in canned software. If you need a database, Filemaker or Access are fine.

If you have a developed intranet and web, you might want to put your files on it - but that's typically more expense. The tradeoff is it's easier for most people to use a web interface - I don't find navigating and remembering directories difficult but many people say that's too technical.

Even if your company has 40,000 employees around the world - as long as you have a connective intranet you can have the documents as READ ONLY in a protected directory on 1 server.

I in no way promote expensive and/or specialized software solutions. I take each client and evaluate:

What programs do they have?
How many employees?
Locations?
All connected by intranet?
Training and ease of use client is seeking?
Money to spend?
Programmers in-house and/or experience outsourcing (such as Oracle in large companies which want to leverage info from that)?
Degree of ERP/database integration required (large companies).
Any existing systems to be integrated?

Some companies want Powerway - Harley did. I recommended against it. Some companies write a control database in access. I push a simple spreadsheet for smaller companies - example in the pdf_files directory is doc_matrix.pdf if I remember correctly. A spread sheet is definitely not expensive or specialized.

John, how you want to control documents is a function of how fancy you want to get. As much as I disdain Microsoft, if you have Word, Excel, Access and Powerpoint - there's not a thing else you need.

On the other hand, let's go beyond document control. Let's go beyond ISO to QS.

If you want to expand the situation to include / address MT&E control, control plan / FMEA / Nonconformance-Corrective Action systems software - well, you can do most of this in-house or outsource it but canned software is typically the cheapest way to go. But again, this is all very company specific. On page 2 of this thread I believe Kate Kliebhan gave a glowing recommendation for MQ1. I like the customization features she describes, thought I have never used it. A big drawback to 99% of canned software is that it is just that - canned. You can't tailor it to your company.

Now - if you consider this reply as jumping on you and mauling you - that's life. I addressed the question at hand. The only person I know I seriously pissed off here (mauled) was the fellow who, in another thread, asked about consultants without even considering me. Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut, but I said what I did and stand behind it. If you're considering hiring a consultant and don't want to consider me then discuss it in a NG or person to person - not on my forums. Yes - I took it as an insult and I raised hell. Just because this site is free doesn't give license to insult me. On the other hand, I do not mind consultants responding to such inqueries. A number of people here are consultants - if you (they) smell food, go for it. I do.

Now - back to you. 'Maul' me back.

Marc,
Thanks for the response. I read it through but I'll have to go through it carefully later to understand it better.
Sorry about the confusion re 'mauled'. I didn't realise there were 3 pages in this discussion and had only read page 1. So the incident I referred to was on this string but back in Sept 99 where you mentioned 'cross posting'. That also explains why I sent three copies - I was still on page 1 and didn't see them come through)
No... Maul away by all means. I suppose the guy had it coming. As for myself, I'm just out looking for it. I go along wishing someone would disagree with me, but they never do. Scared I guess.
rgds, John C

No big deal. I 'mauled' Allan not long ago and I do sometimes give impassioned responses. As you probably know, I did so last night in another thread on stickers. I am passionate about stickers as when I first started doing implementations I was lead down that path. It's expensive and of dubious value. On the other hand, if I do maul someone they are free to 'return fire'.

I got fired up here because I couldn't remember mauling someone for suggesting simple systems except where QS-9000 and APQP documentation is concerned. If you have to deal with APQP documents such as DFMEA, PFMEA, control plan, process flow diagram, I suggest integrated software - I disdain Excel for FMEAs and Control Plans as it's time consuming and can get confusing. Gaging software makes sense for larger companies, as well, in my opinion. But typically I try to recommend cheap, simple solutions.

There are pages now for the same reason I have the pdf files in a mirror server - the server load has been high and it's much easier on the server to 'page' the long threads. I admit it's not as easy for the user and may change back.

Marc,
I'm not familiar with a lot of the packages you mention but I take your answer as being; "If simple, common software works for you, then use it." Regards data processing; I see a strong dividing line between the process documents and the working documents. I control the format of the process, ie; procedures, and i draft (not design) the overall process diagrams. The objective is that all managers can see and understand the process of which their area of responsibility is a part. Outside that - the forms, records, data and data processing, belongs to the individual areas. We don't need to see it, only to know it exists and see the conclusions drawn in the reports presented. My feeling is that it is better if the documented system DMS is kept simple by using a different package for these peripheral activities and databases. I don't want to make too much of this - maybe it's just a personal preference - but it does fall in line with using the most simple documentation system for procedures. - cheap, quick to open, download, print, understand and easy on bytes. Also, it leaves the engineers and IT people, in different areas, free to choose the system most suitable for their need. Having said that, I realise that cost of duplication is a factor where there is a lot of data to process. My experience is with assembly or simple industrial processes where something like our filemaker pro works fine.
Regards, stickers - well you'll see my position on another string. I suspect it isn't the stickers that you dislike, but the auditors that force people to use them when they aren't necessary.
I've got the hang of the 1. 2. 3 pages but it still can catch people out and we have to keep on being aware of it. If you could arrange for it to open, automatically, on the latest page instead of page 1, then it would be no trouble.
thanks again and rgds, John C

Yes - I suggest the simplest solution. However, you stated you have some personal preferences. This is normal and should be addressed. Each company is so different that what fits well for you will be somewhat different from what others feel is necessary. I suggest you follow your 'feelings' An example is Visio - now a Microsoft product. While it is nice and can link and such, Powerpoint will provide adequate flow charts for most companies.

My concern over complex software is maintenance. While maintenance may not seem like an issue, the more complex (such as active links) your system the more specialized the 'administrators' must be. Updating active links can end up being a time consuming and 'technical' nightmare. I do agree with your analysis.

As far as stickers go, no - I don't care if a company finds them 'necessary'. Yes - I do disagree with auditors who argue for them where none are necessary whether calibratoion or other such as the notorious FOR REFERENCE ONLY stickers some companies put on every document which is not controlled.Per your mention of Filemaker - I personally like it more than Access - but most people have Access. I have had Filemaker for years and all my 'stuff' is in Filemaker - address book, etc.

My intent is to ensure my clients are not pushed into making business decisions based upon an auditors paradigm and interpretation of a requirement.

I'll look into switching back to continuous threads (rather than paged) when I get back. I'm not responding to many messages this week as I'm in Tampa for the week - so I'm pretty busy and I also pay 10 cents a minute to hang around online. I should be back Saturday.

Before you make a selection look in to Q-Pulse from Quality America.
Like you I reviewed several dozen demos looking for a product that was user friendly as well as economical, that could handle the may different types of documents that I handle on a daily basis.
I settled on Q-Pulse. This one program alows me to set up the access right for each person.
Q-Pulse consist of 8 9 different modules. I have one for each of the following: document and data control, non conformances, audits, equipment, suppliers, customers, and training.It also has an admin moduler that controls access to each module. This program is definately the way to go. it is also inexpensive compared to a lot of the others I viewed. You do not have to have a liense for each computer either. You can purchase as many or as few as you want but everyone that has a computer can read the procedures without having a license for their machine.
When I purchases mine it was only $500 a license. Their number is 1-800-722-6154 if you would like to talk to them. You can also find them on the net.

Originally posted by John C:
Marc,
I'm not familiar with a lot of the packages you mention but I take your answer as being; "If simple, common software works for you, then use it." Yes.