I am facing frequently during the ISO 9001 external audit i perform departments working without written procedure ((for example the estimation department in contracting company). I have a difficulty to establish conformity or not . could you please advise how to proceed in this case ?

I am facing frequently during the ISO 9001 external audit i perform departments working without written procedure ((for example the estimation department in contracting company). I have a difficulty to establish conformity or not . could you please advise how to proceed in this case ?

My opinion is to Audit the process.

They don't have written procedures or you don't have an audit procedure?

Do you know how to audit?

Are you a trained auditor?

Having worked as a design manager in a construction company, I would have to say it would (in my experience) be rare to find a procedure for this...most estimators have some training and experience that qualifies them for this function. (I spent a fair amount of money to get a degree that gave me the basics, the rest was training until the lead estimator felt I was "competent")

Actually, as alluded to already, you need to audit the process. With or without a procedure (which is not required by the standard, btw) Does everyone know what to do? When was the last time there was a "nonconformance" caused because there isn't a written procedure? Are there training records showing education, on-the-job training? Records to show the person(s) have been deemed competent? Are estimators given customer requirements, and using them to work up the estimates? Do estimators know legal and other requirements (codes) to be met? etc. etc.

See: http://www.irca.org/downloads/Aud%20Apr%2007%20When%20documents%20aren't%20available.pdf

I am facing frequently during the ISO 9001 external audit i perform departments working without written procedure ((for example the estimation department in contracting company). I have a difficulty to establish conformity or not . could you please advise how to proceed in this case ?

In some other threads, I had been lamenting about auditors not having knowledge or experience in the construction industry but were assigned to audit construction organizations in my country. I hope the picture is not the same here.

Basically, most estimation departments in contracting companies worked in very similar manners or process. People in the industry will know and there really isn't a need to have a procedure. But I will recommend at least a flow chart to guide those who are new.

However, if you really need to audit them and have no idea of their process, just ask them to describe or outline it for a start and carry out your audit from there.

In addition to auditing the process, you can also audit against the relevant clauses of ISO 9001.

I am facing frequently during the ISO 9001 external audit i perform departments working without written procedure ((for example the estimation department in contracting company). I have a difficulty to establish conformity or not . could you please advise how to proceed in this case ?

It's really quite simple........

You plan and prepare based on your knowledge and experience of the process. If you don't know much about the process, you'll need to get some help, possibly some training.

You schedule the audit and you meet with the manager who is the process owner. They describe the process to you, while you make lots of notes and you then confirm your understanding of what you heard. This is important. You also ensure you know what the process objectives and measurements are.

Then, you go and audit the people who are running the process and you ask them similar questions, checking against the notes you have made. You also observe the records of the process, any documentation the people might have and you compare that to what you're being told.

You make notes too, then you have something to comapare each 'story' against. If there's no significant difference, and the process is delivering good performance it's effective. If not you must investigate and decide what's happening.

People have been auditing without recourse to (documented) procedures for years.....

It's really quite simple........

You plan and prepare based on your knowledge and experience of the process. If you don't know much about the process, you'll need to get some help, possibly some training.

You schedule the audit and you meet with the manager who is the process owner. They describe the process to you, while you make lots of notes and you then confirm your understanding of what you heard. This is important. You also ensure you know what the process objectives and measurements are.

Then, you go and audit the people who are running the process and you ask them similar questions, checking against the notes you have made. You also observe the records of the process, any documentation the people might have and you compare that to what you're being told.

You make notes too, then you have something to comapare each 'story' against. If there's no significant difference, and the process is delivering good performance it's effective. If not you must investigate and decide what's happening.

People have been auditing without recourse to (documented) procedures for years.....

Excellent advice from Andy! :agree1:

In addition, consider that every process is performed with a defined purpose in mind. It may not be documented, but hopefully generally understood by the folks who do that work. Every process has a customer. You may want to talk to the (internal) customer to find out how well their needs and expectation were met. In other words: did the process deliver the goods?

Stijloor.

I am facing frequently during the ISO 9001 external audit i perform departments working without written procedure ((for example the estimation department in contracting company). I have a difficulty to establish conformity or not . could you please advise how to proceed in this case ?

Processes and undocumented procedures exist in every successful organization. Competent auditors can audit them for effectiveness.

I look for evidence of control. For example, what are the requirements and are the requirements fulfilled with intent (instead of occasionally by accident). Is the work planned and are they working their plan? Is the work monitored and corrected as the work progresses? Are repeated problems recorded and the root causes removed?

Depending on the objective of your audit (hopefully every one of your audits has an objective), focus on how well the process fulfills the requirements of its customers. For example, in estimating:

1. How do the estimators determine the risks associated with the contracts they are trying to win? The customer here is the site team having sufficient resources (clause 6.1) to safely fulfill the requirements of the contract.

2, How much money do the estimators leave on the table when their company is awarded a contract (difference between the winning bid and next lowest bid price)? The customer here may be the owner of the business who also has return on investment requirements (clause 7.1 may work here but remember; between the estimating and submitting the tender/bid a senior manager usually adjusts the price according to market and other criteria). Your audit should determine those criteria so you can then evaluate the effectiveness of the wider tendering or bidding process.

3. Are the estimates continually improved (clauses 8.1 and 8.5.1) to reflect the actual productivity or costs of labor and materials in the field? If the system is doing its job of increasing efficiency you may see evidence of this in the new rates for labor and materials.

4. Is the company winning the contracts it needs to fulfill its business objectives (this may involve other processes such as marketing so apply the requirements of clause 5.4.2)?

5. Is the estimating team allocating the time needed to fully train the field crews (visit with the QESH manager to determine the time needed to train field crews and complete any testing and inspections as part of your audit planning)?

You do not need to be an expert in the process to come up with good questions. It helps enormously to know how business works and to keep the basic principles in mind (such as process, control, customers, effectiveness, PDCA and the system of preventing nonconformity/ineffectiveness).

Make sure your audits have an written objective and that your audit's conclusion answers the question posed by the audit's objective.

Are documented procedures a crutch for not yet fully competent auditors? :bonk:

See: http://www.irca.org/downloads/Aud%20Apr%2007%20When%20documents%20aren't%20available.pdf

Hey, I think I recognize the author of that paper... ;)

Hey, I think I recognize the author of that paper... ;)

:applause: :applause: Another outstanding Cover!